steve common said:Dot <dot.h@#att.net> wrote:
Quoted message said:Quoted message said:immediately thought in terms of distance training - where 2x5 does not equal 1x10 in 1 day
This wasn't the point I was after originally, but are you certain that this in not the case? Our
national 100km team does rather well on the assumption that 2x2 hours is better than 1x4h in all
respects.
This is my understanding based on the ultra list and what many ultra runners seem to do. One of the
ultra list folks is a physiologist (not sure of exact title) and is the one that developed many of
the ultrafit sports drinks - Ultra, Clip, Amino - and the succeed electrolyte tablets. I'm not sure
he's quoted any studies, but he can explain many of the endocrine functions as the events get
longer. This is part of the reason why different fluids / fuels may be used along the way.
Going back to one of his posts this summer, I incorrectly remembered part of it. They were
discussing 2x13 vs 1x26. As far as TOL was concerned, he considered them roughly the same, and the
2x13 might be better since you might not damage connective tissues as much, although I suspect (my
opinion, not his statement) it depends on how well you recover in 6 or so hrs vs just keep going.
But for training endocrine system, he doesn't consider them equal. In shorter runs, you won't burn
all your leg muscle glycogen and stress your endocrine system. If you eat between the two shorter
runs, you will re-load a lot of glycogen for the muscles, so the second short run will not be as
stressful as the 2nd half of the longer run.
He recommends the longer run for ultras to train the endocrine system, but the two shorter runs
(13mi in this case) might be better for you for shorter runs.
Another issue not addressed in that post, I would think, would be what your mental capacity is after
running 12 or more hours, if you've only trained in terms of 2-hr increments. Trying to deal with
finding trails in the dark, etc.
FWIW, the ultra folks on another group (RW trail/ultra) tend to like to go play, I mean run, for 3-5
hours at a time. Several are adventure racers. While people use the term "play", several of them
place highly either in ag or 1st 50 miler or something like that. The Anchorage ultra folks have a
2-4 hr run every Thursday night (starts 6:30 pm) year round. Some of the winter runs suggest you
bring an ice axe. Most of the ultra people I'm familiar with seem to enjoy these longer runs - after
they've reached that conditioning point. And for me, that's what makes long distance running so
inviting. If I were going to limit my runs to 2 hrs (I'm not up to that again on trails), I'd
probably drop running in a heartbeat and go back to being a half-hour after work jogger and go
hiking or skiing or snowshoeing on the weekends for multiple hours. I just need to get my body parts
to cooperate with being able to run that long.
I tried looking at Roberto Ghidoni's web page to see if he listed any of his training, but didn't
see any. He's the one that wins the Iditarod Invitational - by days this past year. I think that
race is about 22 or so days averaging 40-50 mi / day, depending on snow conditions.
Quoted message said:
I agree that I've no physiological data on this, I've just chosen to believe the local "church"
(backed-up by my own experience) until something better comes along.
My "church" does it differently, but that might be because they just like to spend time in church 🙂
Quoted message said:Quoted message said:I'd prefer to view your "traumatism" as "conditioning" for longer runs / adventures 😉
LOL What I'll never understand is how you manage to do such a good imitation of a 50 y.o male when
you write here under the name of Doug Freese :->
ROTFLMAO. You're in good form today 🙂
Actually, he's only part of my influence - actually one of the milder ones. I see people in
rec.running say you shouldn't do such-and-such. Then I look around and many of the local runners are
doing that. Like the classic about whether to run in snow. We've got an 1100 mi race in the middle
of winter. I see the Anchorage ultra folks doing 2-4 hr runs with ice axes up mountains in the dark
in winter. I confess to being a wimp by Alaskan standards. My current perceptions are that most of
what people do seems to be about what they're interested in doing and willing to train for, rather
than absolute limitations, although some people's bodies may not be able to handle some things. Some
train to race, others, like myself, enjoy the journey far more than the race and can't wait until my
TOL is long enough to do some serious trail running.
Quoted message said:
I'll bow to you on this point. Once you can take the hammering, it probably should be called
conditioning coz it's not bad enough to be traumatic ;->
Right. I think that's what's happening. Many of the experienced ultra folks have trained for so long
that their bodies are used to the longer runs and consider them playing in the woods.
Quoted message said:Quoted message said:
In my case, running for 2+hrs gets a person farther off the road than 1 hr and into some prettier
scenery 🙂
Just a different perspective.
And, in my state of mind at the moment, it's by far the more seductive one. Hey ho!
LOL.
As a side note, if Pheidippides had listened to Doug and either trained with longer runs or taken a
recovery day between his spartathlon and his marathon and hadn't dropped dead, would we have
marathons today? or would spartathlons be more common? or would charities have to search for another
fundraiser?
Dot
--
"Success is different things to different people" -Bernd Heinrich in Racing the Antelope
