Sizing a Bike

By all means ride the position that is comfortable. But since
aerodynamics are such a factor in cycling, I find it puzzlng that
cyclists don't discuss flexibility training that would allow the lower
positions in comfort. Especially say, compared to other factors that
enjoy vigorous discussion such a frame material, weight, and other
more marginal improvements. I hurt my back a few years ago, and found
the physiotherapy actually made my riding more comfortable. I've kept
up the streching for fear of that pain again, and enjoy the position I
adopted as a teen doing pursuits (ie low bars). (I'm 50 in a month).
Granted, stretching requires some dedication, but frredom from back
pain , with an aero position as a bonus, seems worth it. No pressure
on the tender bits either if you're flexible enough to ride with your
pelvis rolled back a bit.

mtb Dad said:

By all means ride the position that is comfortable. But since
aerodynamics are such a factor in cycling, I find it puzzlng that
cyclists don't discuss flexibility training that would allow the lower
positions in comfort.

Flexibility is important, but let's take my bike for example. The stem
is 1 inch below the nose of the saddle. Tops and hoods are very
comfortable. My drops aren't very far away, so they're good and nice
too. If I'm really hammering away, all I have to do is bend my elbows
slightly and my back is quite flat.

Getting aerodynamic doesn't do squat if you have to keep your arms
straight to do so (leads to numb hands, sore arms, etc IME). Raising
the bars encourages me to bend my elbows and seems to have been a very
good thing. I'm 25 and pretty limber, BTW.

--
Paul M. Hobson
..:change the f to ph to reply:.

Paul M. Hobson said:

mtb Dad said:

By all means ride the position that is comfortable.  But since
aerodynamics are such a factor in cycling, I find it puzzlng that
cyclists don't discuss flexibility training that would allow the lower
positions in comfort.

Flexibility is important, but let's take my bike for example.  The stem
is 1 inch below the nose of the saddle.  Tops and hoods are very
comfortable.  My drops aren't very far away, so they're good and nice
too.  If I'm really hammering away, all I have to do is bend my elbows
slightly and my back is quite flat.

Getting aerodynamic doesn't do squat if you have to keep your arms
straight to do so (leads to numb hands, sore arms, etc IME).  Raising
the bars encourages me to bend my elbows and seems to have been a very
good thing.  I'm 25 and pretty limber, BTW.

--
Paul M. Hobson
.:change the f to ph to reply:.

I should have added I'm about 6'2". The original post suggests that
the seat/bar difference is not size dependant; taller riders generally
have a bigger difference in height from seat to bars.

On your point, you can only bend your elbows so much for so long. If
you mean locked elbows, I agreee this is undesireable, but it's a
sympton of discomfort, which could mean too low a position, or lack of
flexibility.

And all things being equal, a low position also allows you to bend
your elbows when you really want to get out of the wind. Like
following a very strong short guy when you're last in the paceline and
it's a long way to coffee. ;-)

I'm not suggesting anyone should ride an uncomfortable position to get
aero. Just saying that increased flexibility will make a lower
position comfortable.

Paul M. Hobson said:

mtb Dad said:

By all means ride the position that is comfortable.  But since
aerodynamics are such a factor in cycling, I find it puzzlng that
cyclists don't discuss flexibility training that would allow the lower
positions in comfort.

Flexibility is important, but let's take my bike for example.  The stem
is 1 inch below the nose of the saddle.  Tops and hoods are very
comfortable.  My drops aren't very far away, so they're good and nice
too.  If I'm really hammering away, all I have to do is bend my elbows
slightly and my back is quite flat.

Getting aerodynamic doesn't do squat if you have to keep your arms
straight to do so (leads to numb hands, sore arms, etc IME).  Raising
the bars encourages me to bend my elbows and seems to have been a very
good thing.  I'm 25 and pretty limber, BTW.

--
Paul M. Hobson
.:change the f to ph to reply:.

I should have added I'm about 6'2". The original post suggests that
the seat/bar difference is not size dependant; taller riders generally
have a bigger difference in height from seat to bars.

On your point, you can only bend your elbows so much for so long. If
you mean locked elbows, I agreee this is undesireable, but it's a
sympton of discomfort, which could mean too low a position, or lack of
flexibility.

And all things being equal, a low position also allows you to bend
your elbows when you really want to get out of the wind. Like
following a very strong short guy when you're last in the paceline and
it's a long way to coffee. ;-)

I'm not suggesting anyone should ride an uncomfortable position to get
aero. Just saying that increased flexibility will make a lower
position comfortable.

mtb Dad said:

Paul M. Hobson said:

mtb Dad said:

By all means ride the position that is comfortable. But since
aerodynamics are such a factor in cycling, I find it puzzlng that
cyclists don't discuss flexibility training that would allow the lower
positions in comfort.

Flexibility is important, but let's take my bike for example. The stem
is 1 inch below the nose of the saddle. Tops and hoods are very
comfortable. My drops aren't very far away, so they're good and nice
too. If I'm really hammering away, all I have to do is bend my elbows
slightly and my back is quite flat.

Getting aerodynamic doesn't do squat if you have to keep your arms
straight to do so (leads to numb hands, sore arms, etc IME). Raising
the bars encourages me to bend my elbows and seems to have been a very
good thing. I'm 25 and pretty limber, BTW.

--
Paul M. Hobson
.:change the f to ph to reply:.

I should have added I'm about 6'2". The original post suggests that
the seat/bar difference is not size dependant; taller riders generally
have a bigger difference in height from seat to bars.

I've really only ever been one height, but this makes sense to me.

Quoted message said:

On your point, you can only bend your elbows so much for so long. If
you mean locked elbows, I agreee this is undesireable, but it's a
sympton of discomfort, which could mean too low a position, or lack of
flexibility.

I can ride with bent elbows *much* longer than straight ones. Maybe my
arms are just right so that locking my elbows perfectly cuts off the
circulation to my hands. Regardless, I find any position (tops, hoods,
drops, flat bar, whatever) much more comfortable with some bend in the
elbows.

Quoted message said:

And all things being equal, a low position also allows you to bend
your elbows when you really want to get out of the wind. Like
following a very strong short guy when you're last in the paceline and
it's a long way to coffee. ;-)

Certainly, but I can get pretty low with bent elbows.

Quoted message said:

I'm not suggesting anyone should ride an uncomfortable position to get
aero. Just saying that increased flexibility will make a lower
position comfortable.

I think we're pretty much in agreement here. The problem arises when
frames get shipped with forks that are already chopped down pretty low.
For the average guy who wants to start commuting or finally get in
shape, it'd be best if they left the bars nice and high, and the brought
them down as the rider wishes/gets more flexible/whatever. Like most
things in life, I think folks would benefit from being informed and
having a choice in the matter.

My wrist is still recovering from an accident 1.5 years ago and I'll
need to have another surgery as soon as my lab work for my thesis is
done. So that's my plan with my next bike that'll come after the
surgery. Start the bars out at the seat, then bring them down as my
wrist gets back to 100%.
--
Paul M. Hobson
..:change the f to ph to reply:.

mtb Dad said:

I'm not suggesting anyone should ride an uncomfortable position to get
aero. Just saying that increased flexibility will make a lower
position comfortable.

Howdy,

I had a funny experience:

Years ago, I bought a Bruce Gordon touring frame and stem.
The size, angles etc. were based on conversations with
Bruce.

When I built up the bicycle and took my first ride, it felt
to me that the bars were so low, and far out, as to be
almost impossible for me.

As it turned out, I had an adjustable stem, and figured that
I would experiment with it until I found a really
comfortable stem position. Then at that point, I planned to
have Bruce make a stem for me with dimensions that would hit
that sweet spot.

(Hey, can you see where we are going with this...?)

Sooooo, eventually (and with more tweaking than I ever
expected) I had real comfort. I wrote down all the
information for my call to Bruce.

But, before placing the call, for comparison, I thought to
dig out the stem he had provided with the frame.

It was virtually identical to the "made to measure" stem I
was about to order!

"Increased flexibility" had made a world of difference.

All the best,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

On Fri, 29 Feb 2008 18:36:39 -0800, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo.

com may have said:

Over the years I've followed this fad and that and one of them has been to
ride frame sizes one or two sizes smaller than you should be riding. Today
this also comes down to those idiotic "compact" frames that are too small in
all sizes.

The problem with small frames is that you cannot mount the bars in the
correct position. For most riders the handlebars should be about 1" below
the saddle height - when was the last time you saw that? Why magazine "test
bikes" invariably have photos of a racing bike with the bars perhaps 4"
below saddle height (some even more!) as if that were some sort of target.

Low bars cause you to ride with your neck craned back too far to see
forward. It also puts your genitals in a very painful position. Add to this
the ridiculous "ultralight" saddles which achieve lightening by making the
smallest possible saddle and here you are with a flat back, head craned up
40 degrees, weight falling forward and having to sit off to one side of the
saddle to avoid painful interactions.

When your bar tops are an inch below the saddle height the DROPS become
usable if and when you're in that racing pack. Today's drops are so low that
your arms are out straight as an arrow when you try to use them and you have
more drag than with your hands on the tops!

Anyone that's seen Jobst out riding would note immediately that he certainly
isn't following any bicycle magazine ads pertaining to bicycle fit. And most
people still can't stay with him when he's in a hurry.

Less bike + same price = more profit, no?

Would I be accused of being too cynical if I said that I believe the
chain store outlets care more about volume than proper service at the
time of sale? Is it naive to think that among those who buy bikes,
there are more people who have no idea what constitutes a proper fit
than there are folks who know what a proper fit will be for them? Is
it perhaps supportable to contend that a lot of the folks buying bikes
do not ride them enough to develop enough of an opinion about fit
issues that a properly fitted bike would make a real difference to
them? (I'll admit that if the bike was properly fitted, they might
find it easier to ride...but I'm no longer convinced that they'll
really notice the difference right away, and I have my doubts about
whether anything short of a gross mistfit would actually deter them
from the small amount of riding that they do...and a better fit would
not necessarily get them on the bike more often. IMLE, it's not that
they couldn't tell the difference, it's that to them the bike is
merely an alternate transport and/or a means to facilitate something
*else*, and it is not riding that is their principal focus. If the
bike works *at all*, they are satisfied.)

--
My email address is antispammed; pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail.
Typoes are not a bug, they're a feature.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

Kenneth said:

On Mon, 3 Mar 2008 07:42:31 -0800 (PST), mtb Dad

Quoted message said:

I'm not suggesting anyone should ride an uncomfortable position to get
aero.  Just saying that increased flexibility will make a lower
position comfortable.

Howdy,

I had a funny experience:

Years ago, I bought a Bruce Gordon touring frame and stem.
The size, angles etc. were based on conversations with
Bruce.

When I built up the bicycle and took my first ride, it felt
to me that the bars were so low, and far out, as to be
almost impossible for me.

As it turned out, I had an adjustable stem, and figured that
I would experiment with it until I found a really
comfortable stem position. Then at that point, I planned to
have Bruce make a stem for me with dimensions that would hit
that sweet spot.

(Hey, can you see where we are going with this...?)

Sooooo, eventually (and with more tweaking than I ever
expected) I had real comfort. I wrote down all the
information for my call to Bruce.

But, before placing the call, for comparison, I thought to
dig out the stem he had provided with the frame.

It was virtually identical to the "made to measure" stem I
was about to order!

"Increased flexibility" had made a world of difference.

All the best,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

Good story. Careful, we'll get labelled as forcing people into
'expert' postions.

I think a lot of people feel that way when they get on a road bike for
the first time. Especially in a store, when they are not bearing any
weight with the legs in pedalling, the bars feel very low and far
away.

I taught a road cycling class today to novice college students. A
good local shop provided road bikes (mostly racey 105 road bikes),
albeit with guesstimated fit. Most didn't like the feel in the
parking lot, but complained less over the ride and even seemed
comfortable by the end.

' had a similar experience learning to speed skate. Nothing but pain
at first, then an older guy skated with me and taught me to curl my
back more (vs bending mostly at the waist and hip). A little
stretching on the carpet before skating (rolling on my back while
curled up), and I was pain free for 8 km stretches.

Cheers
L

mtb Dad said:

Good story. Careful, we'll get labelled as forcing people into
'expert' postions.

I think a lot of people feel that way when they get on a road bike for
the first time. Especially in a store, when they are not bearing any
weight with the legs in pedalling, the bars feel very low and far
away.

I taught a road cycling class today to novice college students. A
good local shop provided road bikes (mostly racey 105 road bikes),
albeit with guesstimated fit. Most didn't like the feel in the
parking lot, but complained less over the ride and even seemed
comfortable by the end.

' had a similar experience learning to speed skate. Nothing but pain
at first, then an older guy skated with me and taught me to curl my
back more (vs bending mostly at the waist and hip). A little
stretching on the carpet before skating (rolling on my back while
curled up), and I was pain free for 8 km stretches.

Cheers
L

Hi again,

Thanks for you interesting comments.

I'll mention another fit thing...

When I called Bruce originally, I had assumed that he would
want information about all the specific fit characteristics
of the frame I wanted, but, despite lots of experience, and
lots of reading over many years, I knew that I really did
not have a clue.

To my great surprise, he told me that he would not build to
my specs even if I had detailed requests (and this was not
an "off the shelf" frame.)

He said that when people make the request, he simply
responds by saying "I have been fitting frames to customers
for more than 25 years. How long have you been doing it?"

All the best,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

A Muzi said:

You're singing my song, Tom. Modern bikes sold elsewhere keep us quite
busy with tall stem sales.

It seems like every decontenting or defeaturing has the silver lining
for shops of increasing high-margin parts and accessory sales. I needed
a headset extender and went to REI and they said they sell them as fast
as they get them in.

I wish that the Speedlifter was sold in the U.S.
"http://www.speedlifter.com/en/information/faq_e.html".

Tom Kunich said:

Over the years I've followed this fad and that and one of them has been
to ride frame sizes one or two sizes smaller than you should be riding.
Today this also comes down to those idiotic "compact" frames that are
too small in all sizes.

Compact frames are a convenience for the manufacturers. Usually can have
they have fewer frame sizes and they can pack more bicycles in a single
shipping container. Of course they had to come up with some
rationalizations to justify this insanity.

Threadless headsets allow the manufacturer to have a single fork size,
rather than manufacturing different sizes for each frame. It wouldn't
have been so bad if they had come up with another method of adjusting
bar height, but for many years they just cut the steer tube way too low.

Now you see a lot more manufacturers leaving steer tube longer, and
adding a bunch of spacers, but there is a limit to the the length that
some manufacturers permit, especially for carbon. The problem is less
bad than it was in the early days of compact frames and threadless
headsets, and there is always the option of using an extension.

I'm going to the Taipei International Cycle show next week, and it's
always interesting to see all the strange accessories that accessory
manufacturers have come up with to solve design issues that bicycle
designers and manufacturers have created.

It's a win-win for everyone except the cyclist, who ends up having to
purchase extra accessory products just to end up with a usable product.
Rather than the manufacturer doing the design right, and including
necessary accessories at a fraction of their retail cost, new jobs and
new revenue are created along the entire supply chain.

Tom Kunich' cyclintom@yahoo. com said:

Over the years I've followed this fad and that and one of them has been to
ride frame sizes one or two sizes smaller than you should be riding.

You've been riding for years and you buy bikes one or two sizes too
small? Didn't you learn anything the first time you made this
mistake? How many times do you have to repeat a mistake to learn? I
bought one bike too small. Just one.

Today

Quoted message said:

this also comes down to those idiotic "compact" frames that are too small in
all sizes.

The problem with small frames is that you cannot mount the bars in the
correct position. For most riders the handlebars should be about 1" below
the saddle height - when was the last time you saw that?

No thanks. 1" drop is not nearly enough. Its OK on the loaded
touring bike. But on the road bikes, 3" is my drop.

Why magazine "test

Quoted message said:

bikes" invariably have photos of a racing bike with the bars perhaps 4"
below saddle height (some even more!) as if that were some sort of target.

Low bars cause you to ride with your neck craned back too far to see
forward. It also puts your genitals in a very painful position. Add to this
the ridiculous "ultralight" saddles which achieve lightening by making the
smallest possible saddle and here you are with a flat back, head craned up
40 degrees, weight falling forward and having to sit off to one side of the
saddle to avoid painful interactions.

Brooks saddles are quite comfortable. Much wider than those plastic
torture devices. You can ride hours and hours comfortably on a Brooks
saddle.

Quoted message said:

When your bar tops are an inch below the saddle height the DROPS become
usable if and when you're in that racing pack. Today's drops are so low that
your arms are out straight as an arrow when you try to use them and you have
more drag than with your hands on the tops!

TTT Morphe handlebars. Shallow 140mm drop. Medium-long reach. Drops
are usable for hours and hours at a time. Another thing I learned
long ago, bars are different. Deep drop bars are not for me. So I
don't buy them. I use shallow drop bars so I can comfortably ride in
the drops.

Quoted message said:

Anyone that's seen Jobst out riding would note immediately that he certainly
isn't following any bicycle magazine ads pertaining to bicycle fit. And most
people still can't stay with him when he's in a hurry.

SMS said:

A Muzi said:

You're singing my song, Tom. Modern bikes sold elsewhere keep us quite
busy with tall stem sales.

It seems like every decontenting or defeaturing has the silver lining
for shops of increasing high-margin parts and accessory sales. I needed
a headset extender and went to REI and they said they sell them as fast
as they get them in.

I wish that the Speedlifter was sold in the U.S.
"http://www.speedlifter.com/en/information/faq_e.html".

I scanned the website; is it my imagination, or do they switch the
terms head tube and steer tube?

mtb Dad said:

...
I think a lot of people feel that way when they get on a road bike for
the first time. Especially in a store, when they are not bearing any
weight with the legs in pedalling, the bars feel very low and far
away.

I taught a road cycling class today to novice college students. A
good local shop provided road bikes (mostly racey 105 road bikes),
albeit with guesstimated fit. Most didn't like the feel in the
parking lot, but complained less over the ride and even seemed
comfortable by the end.[...]

People can acclimate to the point where anything else feels odd. For me
a normal position is reclined at 35° from the horizontal, with my feet
15 cm higher than the seat.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful

Quoted message said:

Brooks saddles are quite comfortable. Much wider than those plastic
torture devices. You can ride hours and hours comfortably on a Brooks
saddle.

A lot of people find Brooks saddles to be "torture devices". I find them
to be much worse than any plastic shelled saddle I've ever tried.

mtb Dad said:

Paul M. Hobson said:

mtb Dad said:

By all means ride the position that is comfortable. But since
aerodynamics are such a factor in cycling, I find it puzzlng that
cyclists don't discuss flexibility training that would allow the lower
positions in comfort.

Quoted message said:

Flexibility is important, but let's take my bike for example. The stem
is 1 inch below the nose of the saddle. Tops and hoods are very
comfortable. My drops aren't very far away, so they're good and nice
too. If I'm really hammering away, all I have to do is bend my elbows
slightly and my back is quite flat.

Quoted message said:

Getting aerodynamic doesn't do squat if you have to keep your arms
straight to do so (leads to numb hands, sore arms, etc IME). Raising
the bars encourages me to bend my elbows and seems to have been a very
good thing. I'm 25 and pretty limber, BTW.

Quoted message said:

--
Paul M. Hobson
.:change the f to ph to reply:.

I should have added I'm about 6'2". The original post suggests that
the seat/bar difference is not size dependant; taller riders generally
have a bigger difference in height from seat to bars.

On your point, you can only bend your elbows so much for so long. If
you mean locked elbows, I agreee this is undesireable, but it's a
sympton of discomfort, which could mean too low a position, or lack of
flexibility.

And all things being equal, a low position also allows you to bend
your elbows when you really want to get out of the wind. Like
following a very strong short guy when you're last in the paceline and
it's a long way to coffee. ;-)

I'm not suggesting anyone should ride an uncomfortable position to get
aero. Just saying that increased flexibility will make a lower
position comfortable.

Another factor is arm and leg length compared to torso. pro cyclists
tend to have longer extremities and shorter torsos, while average
Americans tend to be longer torsoed and shorter legged/armed.

Of course pro cyclists spend 6 to 10 hours a day on bicycles and most
of us spend that much a week or less. So no matter how much we work on
flex, ours does not likely approach the flexibility of a pro.

I have a tt and a road bike. both have the bars almost leveled with
the saddle. I still can get a fairly aero position on both and ride
comfortably on the drops or aeros for quite a long time. Also, I tend
to have the saddle a little further forward, reducing the angle
between my hamstrings and my back. I used to start getting sore on my
lower back after 2 ours on the saddle. Now, I can pretty much ride
forever on my aero bars with not a hint of pain.

When I ride with groups, my bikes don't look as "pro" as everyones
elses. However, I can get more aero than most and I can keep up with
most people. There are a few top level cyclists and triathletes that
kick my butt and ride comfortably with extreme positions. But most
don't look comfortable or ride very fast.

Andres

Peter Cole said:

Quoted message said:

Brooks saddles are quite comfortable.  Much wider than those plastic
torture devices.  You can ride hours and hours comfortably on a Brooks
saddle.

A lot of people find Brooks saddles to be "torture devices". I find them
to be much worse than any plastic shelled saddle I've ever tried.

Maybe its just coincidence, but I doubt it. You will see quite a few,
maybe even a majority, of bikes with Brooks saddles on ultra distance
rides such as Paris Brest Paris. So people who ride hundreds of miles
at a time find Brooks quite comfortable. People who ride a few miles
at a time may not.

Quoted message said:

Peter Cole said:

Quoted message said:

Brooks saddles are quite comfortable. Much wider than those plastic
torture devices. You can ride hours and hours comfortably on a Brooks
saddle.

A lot of people find Brooks saddles to be "torture devices". I find them
to be much worse than any plastic shelled saddle I've ever tried.

Maybe its just coincidence, but I doubt it. You will see quite a few,
maybe even a majority, of bikes with Brooks saddles on ultra distance
rides such as Paris Brest Paris. So people who ride hundreds of miles
at a time find Brooks quite comfortable. People who ride a few miles
at a time may not.

It's more than coincidence. My search for a suitable saddle was driven
mainly by my long distance riding needs. I'm well aware that many long
distance cyclists use Brooks saddles successfully. I know this from
having done a lot of brevets. That's also how I know that Brooks saddles
cripple me and a lot of others.

It boils (ahem) down to saddle front-to-back shape. Brooks saddles form
a kind of sling (insert joke). I've found out the hard way that I can't
tolerate any kind of front-to-back curve (droop), regardless of material
or padding. I have tried multiple Brooks models for several months each.
I find these saddles uncomfortable for short rides and crippling for
long ones. Many have reported the same experience. The hard, flat
saddles (like Flites) have allowed me to do 250 mile rides without
discomfort. I realize that others have different experiences, it must be
a variation in anatomy.

On Thu, 06 Mar 2008 13:40:31 GMT, Peter Cole <[email hidden]>
wrote:

[---]

Quoted message said:

I have tried multiple Brooks models for several months each.
I find these saddles uncomfortable for short rides and crippling for
long ones. Many have reported the same experience.

That's certainly been my experience - I've owned a Conquest, a B17, a
B17N and a Swallow, and none of them were comfortable over long
distances.

Quoted message said:

The hard, flat
saddles (like Flites) have allowed me to do 250 mile rides without
discomfort.

Also my experience - I replaced the Brooks with a Fizik Arione on one
bike, and a Selle Italia SLR on the other, and that was the end of my
problems.

Dans le message de news:[email hidden],
Andrew Price <[email hidden]> a réfléchi, et puis a déclaré :

Quoted message said:

On Thu, 06 Mar 2008 13:40:31 GMT, Peter Cole <[email hidden]>
wrote:

[---]

Quoted message said:

I have tried multiple Brooks models for several months each.
I find these saddles uncomfortable for short rides and crippling for
long ones. Many have reported the same experience.

That's certainly been my experience - I've owned a Conquest, a B17, a
B17N and a Swallow, and none of them were comfortable over long
distances.

Quoted message said:

The hard, flat
saddles (like Flites) have allowed me to do 250 mile rides without
discomfort.

Also my experience - I replaced the Brooks with a Fizik Arione on one
bike, and a Selle Italia SLR on the other, and that was the end of my
problems.

The key to comfort with a saddle is to avoid being an ideologue about the
subject and just let the few neurons available derrière help you decide.
Guarding your rigidity will only help you enjoy riding less and less as time
and patience wear on.
--
Sandy

The above is guaranteed 100% free of sarcasm,
denigration, snotty remarks, indifference, platitudes, fuming demands that
"you do the math", conceited visions of a better world on wheels according
to [insert NAME here].