Should I go clipless?

Zoot Katz said:

Thu, 26 May 2005 07:25:54 -0400, <[email hidden]>,

Peter Cole said:

Those are PowerGrips. I used them for a while. I think they are very
dangerous. I wouldn't recommend them.

How so? What would make them more dangerous than clipless pedals?

The release action is the same twisting motion as clipless pedals. So,
even switching back and forth between PowerGrips and clipless isn't as
potentially dangerous as switching between clips & straps and
clipless.

Yes, except twisting heel to the outside tightens Powergrips, unlike
clipless which release either way. I'm very wary of pedals that can trap
your foot in a twisting fall, a friend just had a plate and several
screws installed, his leg will never be the same.

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In article <[email hidden]>,

Zoot Katz said:

Thu, 26 May 2005 07:25:54 -0400, <[email hidden]>,

Peter Cole said:

Those are PowerGrips. I used them for a while. I think they are very
dangerous. I wouldn't recommend them.

How so? What would make them more dangerous than clipless pedals?

_ Peter says that every time they come up. I really don't
understand why either. I think they fall somewhere in between
clips and straps and clipless pedals. Getting out can be more
complicated than clipless due interactions between pedal and
shoe tred, however it's much simpler than clips and straps.

Quoted message said:

The release action is the same twisting motion as clipless pedals. So,
even switching back and forth between PowerGrips and clipless isn't as
potentially dangerous as switching between clips & straps and
clipless.

_ Well, you can release by twisting in the other direction, like
with clipless, but I'm not sure how much that matters.

Quoted message said:

I got into trouble with PowerGrips while I was using clips & straps on
all the other bikes. I was still trying to twist out when I hit the
ground badly straining my leg. After that I had to switch back to
clips & straps because I couldn't twist my leg for at least a month.
For that, I wouldn't fault the PowerGrips as being dangerous.

_ In my experience, they work pretty well and are very easy to
get in / out of if you're used to clipless already. The do take
a bit of adjusting every time you change shoes.

_ Booker C. Bense

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In article <[email hidden]>,

Peter Cole said:

Zoot Katz said:

Thu, 26 May 2005 07:25:54 -0400, <[email hidden]>,

Peter Cole said:

Those are PowerGrips. I used them for a while. I think they are very
dangerous. I wouldn't recommend them.

How so? What would make them more dangerous than clipless pedals?

The release action is the same twisting motion as clipless pedals. So,
even switching back and forth between PowerGrips and clipless isn't as
potentially dangerous as switching between clips & straps and
clipless.

Yes, except twisting heel to the outside tightens Powergrips, unlike
clipless which release either way. I'm very wary of pedals that can trap
your foot in a twisting fall, a friend just had a plate and several
screws installed, his leg will never be the same.

_ Don't you mean inside? If twisting outwards tightens the
Powergrips, you have them installed incorrectly.

_ Booker C. Bense

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Thu, 26 May 2005 13:25:18 -0400, <[email hidden]>,

Peter Cole said:

Zoot Katz said:

Peter Cole said:

Those are PowerGrips. I used them for a while. I think they are very
dangerous. I wouldn't recommend them.

How so? What would make them more dangerous than clipless pedals?

The release action is the same twisting motion as clipless pedals. So,
even switching back and forth between PowerGrips and clipless isn't as
potentially dangerous as switching between clips & straps and
clipless.

Yes, except twisting heel to the outside tightens Powergrips, unlike
clipless which release either way.

Vice-versa. Outside releases.

Discovering that my clipless pedals released by twisting either way
was a fortuitously timed pleasant surprise. . . Maybe, since my leg
broke while fully disengaged from the pedal.

Quoted message said:

I'm very wary of pedals that can trap
your foot in a twisting fall, a friend just had a plate and several
screws installed, his leg will never be the same.

I'm already thinking that one of the screws in my leg is going to have
to be removed. Now that I'm putting partial weight on that leg I can
feel the screws and one of them feels wrong.
--
zk

The "rivendell-way" is to use these pedals without any type of
retention. Grant Petersen argues that restraining the foot is
"overblown" and not necessary as it may actually be detrimental as you
don't get to use all of your muscles when say, climbing. He believes
that he is just as fast climbing without retention as with. If you
must be restrainted, he recommends normal toe clips and straps or use
"power grips":

http://www.rivbike.com/webalog/pedals_clips_straps/14046.html

Grant and the rivendell-way is definitely retro. For commuting and
street use, I use the MKS pedals without any restraints. It works well.
However, for longer distances, centuries and any type of long climbs,
give me my clipless pedals (Speedplays!)

Zoot Katz said:

Thu, 26 May 2005 13:25:18 -0400, <[email hidden]>,

Peter Cole said:

Zoot Katz said:

Peter Cole <[email hidden]> wrote:

>Those are PowerGrips. I used them for a while. I think they are very
>dangerous. I wouldn't recommend them.

How so? What would make them more dangerous than clipless pedals?

The release action is the same twisting motion as clipless pedals. So,
even switching back and forth between PowerGrips and clipless isn't as
potentially dangerous as switching between clips & straps and
clipless.

Yes, except twisting heel to the outside tightens Powergrips, unlike
clipless which release either way.

Vice-versa. Outside releases.

Discovering that my clipless pedals released by twisting either way
was a fortuitously timed pleasant surprise. . . Maybe, since my leg
broke while fully disengaged from the pedal.

Quoted message said:

I'm very wary of pedals that can trap
your foot in a twisting fall, a friend just had a plate and several
screws installed, his leg will never be the same.

I'm already thinking that one of the screws in my leg is going to have
to be removed. Now that I'm putting partial weight on that leg I can
feel the screws and one of them feels wrong.

I hope you rehab better than my friend. He had significant nerve damage
and is a long way from full strength in that leg after many months of PT.

Booker C. Bense said:

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In article <[email hidden]>,

Zoot Katz said:

Thu, 26 May 2005 07:25:54 -0400, <[email hidden]>,

Peter Cole said:

Those are PowerGrips. I used them for a while. I think they are very
dangerous. I wouldn't recommend them.

How so? What would make them more dangerous than clipless pedals?

_ Peter says that every time they come up. I really don't
understand why either.

I do a lot of off-road riding. I've taken dozens of hard falls in every
conceivable way: over the bars, backwards, high side, front washout,
etc. I've broken ribs twice, had many bad contusions, but I've never
trapped a foot. I'm really conservative about that. I don't like using
any foot attachment method that won't release reliably. With good
products available so cheaply I don't see any reason to take chances,
either. People who ride exclusively on the road probably don't fall
enough to appreciate the dangers. I would never use straps or Powergrips
again for off-road riding, so I can't see the justification for using
them on the road, either.

Thu, 26 May 2005 17:30:14 +0000 (UTC),
<[email hidden]>, Booker C. Bense
<[email hidden]> wrote
re: PowerGrips

Quoted message said:

_ In my experience, they work pretty well and are very easy to
get in / out of if you're used to clipless already. The do take
a bit of adjusting every time you change shoes.

I had them on the joe-bike I was riding most frequently and fell one
day that I'd switched back to a bike with toe clips. After that I put
the toe clips back on because my leg couldn't rotate. When I replaced
the toe-clips on the other bikes with clipless, I put the PowerGrips
back on joe-bike.
--
zk

Thu, 26 May 2005 14:55:04 -0400, <[email hidden]>,

Peter Cole said:

Quoted message said:

I'm already thinking that one of the screws in my leg is going to have
to be removed. Now that I'm putting partial weight on that leg I can
feel the screws and one of them feels wrong.

I hope you rehab better than my friend. He had significant nerve damage
and is a long way from full strength in that leg after many months of PT.

Thanks. As you may know, uncompensated injuries heal faster. I don't
have a lawyer telling me I'm crippled so I expect to progress rapidly.

I'm afraid the sprained ankle is going to be slower healing than the
broken bone though. At least that won't keep me off the bike. I'm sure
I'll be riding before I done limping.
--
zk

My experience with Power Grips: The tightness which feels okay at the
beginning of a ride may interfere with circulation an hour later. The
tightness changes with the position of your heels, so, as the ride
progresses, you may find yourself riding with your feet pointed toe-in.

Peter Cole said:

I do a lot of off-road riding. I've taken dozens of hard falls in every
conceivable way: over the bars, backwards, high side, front washout,
etc. I've broken ribs twice, had many bad contusions....

People who ride exclusively on the road probably don't fall

Quoted message said:

enough to appreciate the dangers. I would never use straps or Powergrips
again for off-road riding, so I can't see the justification for using
them on the road, either.

:-) Part of the justification for using them on the road may be that
on the road, people don't fall very often!

- Frank Krygowski

dgk said:

Another thread got me thinking about this again. I just have standard
pedals on my bike (commuter hybrid Trek 7100) but keep thinking about
going clipless. My feet never slip off the pedals so I guess that the
whole idea is just so that I can pull up as well as push down? That
involves a whole new set of muscles I would think.

I mostly use toe clips and straps. With those, I can pull up a bit
when desired, but it makes sense only for the first few strokes of a
sprint-from-standing-start situation. People who have measured pedal
forces have found that riders who swear they pull up are not doing so;
they just reduce the downward-at-the-rear force a bit.

Most people like clipless a lot when they convert. Many people feel it
makes them faster. I don't know if this has been proven, though.

Downsides? No more cycling in tennies, dress shoes, or whatever you
have on when you'd like to quickly jump on the bike. You'll ride only
in one pair of shoes, unless you get one of those kludge systems to
temporarily re-convert to toe-clips.

You _will_ fall. Maybe one person in a hundred avoids it.

And watch for knee problems. Some people have had their knees injured
by cleats that weren't adjusted just so. With bare pedals or toe clips
(assuming no cleats) this is much less likely.

Quoted message said:

Is this a good idea when much of my biking is in Manhattan? I suppose
I'll practice in a deserted parking lot for a while first.

Hmm. You might want to ride Manhattan's most quiet, peaceful,
traffic-free streets for a while! ;-)

- Frank Krygowski

Quoted message said:

Peter Cole said:

I do a lot of off-road riding. I've taken dozens of hard falls in every
conceivable way: over the bars, backwards, high side, front washout,
etc. I've broken ribs twice, had many bad contusions....

People who ride exclusively on the road probably don't fall

Quoted message said:

enough to appreciate the dangers. I would never use straps or Powergrips
again for off-road riding, so I can't see the justification for using
them on the road, either.

:-) Part of the justification for using them on the road may be that
on the road, people don't fall very often!

- Frank Krygowski

Yes, but then you are kind of stuck on the road, and all that pavement has
to get boring at some point. It makes cycling kind of a dress up game that
you have to get ready for and not just do spontaneously.
Bill Baka

Bill said:

Quoted message said:

:-) Part of the justification for using them on the road may be that
on the road, people don't fall very often!

- Frank Krygowski

Yes, but then you are kind of stuck on the road, and all that pavement has
to get boring at some point. It makes cycling kind of a dress up game that
you have to get ready for and not just do spontaneously.
Bill Baka

Well, loading 4 gallons of water on your bike isn't something you just
do spontaneously either.

This must be our daily reminder of what a moron you are. Mission
accomplished!

Life is Good!
Jeff

Bill said:

Quoted message said:

Peter Cole said:

I do a lot of off-road riding. I've taken dozens of hard falls in
every conceivable way: over the bars, backwards, high side, front
washout, etc. I've broken ribs twice, had many bad contusions....

People who ride exclusively on the road probably don't fall

Quoted message said:

enough to appreciate the dangers. I would never use straps or
Powergrips again for off-road riding, so I can't see the
justification for using them on the road, either.

:-) Part of the justification for using them on the road may be that
on the road, people don't fall very often!

- Frank Krygowski

Yes, but then you are kind of stuck on the road, and all that
pavement has to get boring at some point. It makes cycling kind of a
dress up game that you have to get ready for and not just do
spontaneously.

Just so you know, Bill, almost all off-road cyclists (mountain bikers) use
either clipless pedals or some sort of strap/cage attachment device. Power
straps ARE (were) dangerous for newbies, but still better than plain
platform pedals. The need for "bursts" of power is often greater on trails
than it is on roads.

Bill "got the scars to back it up" S.

wafflycat said:

I've never regretted going clipless, even though I had the obligatory spill
by forgetting to unclip before stoppng ;-)

That never happened to me. I must be doing it wrong :-)

Perhaps the funniest thing that ever happened to me while riding was
when a friend rode up to where I was waiting at the end of a long ride.
She opened her mouth to speak and, having simply forgotten to unclip
due to exhaustion, promptly fell over with a look of surprise to go with
the open mouth :-)

--
bpo gallery at http://www4.tpgi.com.au/users/mvw1/bpo

Bill said:

Yes, but then you are kind of stuck on the road, and all that pavement has
to get boring at some point. It makes cycling kind of a dress up game that
you have to get ready for and not just do spontaneously.

If you live in the city it's not exactly spontaneous (or free) to load your
mountain bike into the car and drive to a trail, is it? And you still
presumably change clothes, although not into that "girly man" lycra gear
that you seem so fixated on.

--
bpo gallery at http://www4.tpgi.com.au/users/mvw1/bpo

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

And watch for knee problems. Some people have had their knees injured
by cleats that weren't adjusted just so. With bare pedals or toe clips
(assuming no cleats) this is much less likely.

My experience was definitely the other way round. On standard platform
pedals my knees *always* ached. Changing to clipless was instant change to
non-aching knees.

Cheers, helen s

Jeff Starr said:

Bill said:

Quoted message said:

:-) Part of the justification for using them on the road may be that
on the road, people don't fall very often!

- Frank Krygowski

Yes, but then you are kind of stuck on the road, and all that pavement has
to get boring at some point. It makes cycling kind of a dress up game that
you have to get ready for and not just do spontaneously.
Bill Baka

Well, loading 4 gallons of water on your bike isn't something you just
do spontaneously either.

This must be our daily reminder of what a moron you are. Mission
accomplished!

Life is Good!
Jeff

No,
It just proves what an arrogant [censored] roadie you are. I go out for
pure exercise and enjoyment and it seems all you want to do, or know how
to do, is try to look like another Lance Armstrong wannabee.
I feel sorry for people as dumb as you, Bush excepted.
Bill Baka

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

wafflycat said:

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

And watch for knee problems. Some people have had their knees injured
by cleats that weren't adjusted just so. With bare pedals or toe clips
(assuming no cleats) this is much less likely.

My experience was definitely the other way round. On standard platform
pedals my knees *always* ached. Changing to clipless was instant change
to
non-aching knees.

?? Really? I wonder how that works.

Yes, really.
Don't know, don't care how it works.
Possibly because clipless is more efficient pedalling action & I ended up
pushing less on the downstroke of the pedalling action.
It happened and my knees thank the day I changed to clipless.

Cheers, helen s