Sheldon Does Vegas

In rec.bicycles.misc Sheldon Brown said:

"Nobody rides a singlespeed in terrain mountainous enough to actually
_need_ a rear disc brake."

[snip]

Quoted message said:

The main virtue of rear disc brakes is for use in wet , muddy
conditions, and such conditions rarely occur at high altitudes, or at
least that's my impression. Maybe your mountains are an exception to
this, I dunno.

Another advantage of discs is that a mildly bent or out of true rim
won't rub brake pads or freeze your wheel. If you're doing lots of
jumps/falls/etc, this could be a big advantage.

-alan

--
Alan Hoyle - [email hidden] - http://www.alanhoyle.com/
"I don't want the world, I just want your half." -TMBG
Get Horizontal, Play Ultimate.

Qui si parla Campagnolo said:

Diablo Scott said:

Sheldon Brown said:

My report:

http://sheldonbrown.com/lasvegas/2006

Photo of special merit:
http://sheldonbrown.com/lasvegas/2006/pages/sheldon-grant-jobst.html

There is a punch line out there for this pictire...not sure what it is
but there is....

"Breaking the shocking news to Dad (before he's too senile to remember)"?

Alan Hoyle said:

In rec.bicycles.misc Sheldon Brown said:

"Nobody rides a singlespeed in terrain mountainous enough to actually
_need_ a rear disc brake."

[snip]

Quoted message said:

The main virtue of rear disc brakes is for use in wet , muddy
conditions, and such conditions rarely occur at high altitudes, or at
least that's my impression. Maybe your mountains are an exception to
this, I dunno.

Another advantage of discs is that a mildly bent or out of true rim
won't rub brake pads or freeze your wheel. If you're doing lots of
jumps/falls/etc, this could be a big advantage.

I'll buy that for derailer bikes, and I have no problem with rear disc
brakes for derailer bikes for off-road use.

However, symmetrically spoked singlespeed rear wheels, especially when
built on wide-based 135 mm hubs are MUCH, MUCH stronger than derailer
rear wheels, so the type of damage you describe is _extremely_ uncommon
except for unusually abusive riders.

Indeed, that's one of the chief attractions of singlespeeds.

Sheldon "Simplicity" Brown
+--------------------------------------------------------------+
| You will hear people say, "Our country, right or wrong," |
| but that is a false patriotism and bad Americanism. |
| When our country is wrong she is worse than other countries |
| when they are wrong, for she has more light than other |
| countries, and we somehow ought to make her feel that we |
| are sorry and ashamed for her. --William Dean Howells, 1912 |
+--------------------------------------------------------------+
Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041
http://harriscyclery.com
Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com

Sheldon Brown said:

"Kinda disappointed in Bianchi this year. They continue to believe that
disc brakes make sense on singlespeed bikes. This year they've got
three different singlespeed/disc mountain bikes and a singlespeed/disc
cyclocross bike as well!

"Using a disc brake means you can't use a flip-flop hub, so you'll be
stuck with only a single gear option.

"Also, as the chain wears and you move the wheel back in the axle
slots, the relationship between the disc and the caliper will change,
which is a Bad Thing.

"If you combine a disc brake with an old-fashioned rear-opening fork
end, as is currently fashionable, you have to undo the caliper just to
fix a flat tire!

"Nobody rides a singlespeed in terrain mountainous enough to actually
_need_ a rear disc brake."

There's no problem running a front disc if you prefer, but I'd strongly
advise going for a rim brake in back.

Sheldon,

Regarding your concerns about disc brakes on single-speeds, On-One now
uses sliding dropouts to maintian the relationship between caliper and
hub and still allow adjustment of the axle to bottom bracket length.
This seems like a reasonable solution which addresses most of your
concerns. A partial solution to the flip-flop hub concern would be the
surly cogs you presented on your report. They wouldn't allow a
fixed/free option, but at least there would be two gear ratios.

I suppose the Bianchis did not have sliding dropouts. What do you think
of these solutions to the problems of a single-speed with disc brakes?

-Buck

Link to sliding dropouts:
http://www.on-one.co.uk/index.php?module=announce&ANN_user_op=view&ANN_id=31

jlee said:

Sweet report. Thanks for the effort (of making the report).

Now the real questions is, I've only managed to get a few strands of
orange-brownish hair in my beard. How in the world did you get that
radioactive red-pink glow to yours? Surely, we know you're not the
superficial type to go for - gasp - artificial coloring? Dites-nous que
c'est pas vraie! Du colorant? Non...Ca se peut pas...

Clairol Auburn #80.

I'm either 3/8 or 5/16 Irish, (there's this one great-great-grandmother
from Newfoundland nobody knows much about) but never _looked_ Irish
until I made the chemical change.

When I was young my hair was black, then it turned to increasingly
light shades of gray. A couple of years ago I thought it might be fun
to see how I would look as a redhead, so I got some of this "temporary"
dye. As it turned out, I liked the look, so I've stuck with it for the
beard and hair (the head hair is seasonal...I let it grow for the
winter, shave it off for the summer.) I figure if I'm gonna have hair,
I might as well have some fun with it.

My family has an ancestral fondness for red hair, though most of us are
"black Irish." Reputedly, my great grandfather, Stephen Joyce would
always hire any red-headed job applicant for his clothing business in
Boston.

Aren't you glad you asked?

Sheldon "Better Living Through Chemistry" Brown
+---------------------------------------------------+
| As far as I know, none of my immigrant ancestors |
| arrived with a passport, visa nor work permit. |
+---------------------------------------------------+
Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041
http://harriscyclery.com
Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com

Sheldon Brown said:

My report:

http://sheldonbrown.com/lasvegas/2006

Sheldon "A Little Of This, A Little Of That" Brown

http://sheldonbrown.com

Thanks for the report! It's nice seeing some of the 'non racer' stuff
that would otherwise go unreported by the cycling rags. If I squint
really hard, it almost looks like the tandem is made by 'Brown Cycles'
- but I may be mistaken.

SYJ

Sheldon Brown said:

Alan Hoyle said:

In rec.bicycles.misc Sheldon Brown said:

"Nobody rides a singlespeed in terrain mountainous enough to actually
_need_ a rear disc brake."

[snip]

Quoted message said:

The main virtue of rear disc brakes is for use in wet , muddy
conditions, and such conditions rarely occur at high altitudes, or at
least that's my impression. Maybe your mountains are an exception to
this, I dunno.

Another advantage of discs is that a mildly bent or out of true rim
won't rub brake pads or freeze your wheel. If you're doing lots of
jumps/falls/etc, this could be a big advantage.

I'll buy that for derailer bikes, and I have no problem with rear disc
brakes for derailer bikes for off-road use.

However, symmetrically spoked singlespeed rear wheels, especially when
built on wide-based 135 mm hubs are MUCH, MUCH stronger than derailer
rear wheels, so the type of damage you describe is _extremely_ uncommon
except for unusually abusive riders.

These days some riders are pretty abusive! Extreme Moto-X style jumps and
drops are all the rage. However I don't think people are buying discs
because they're worried about having to ride bent wheels. They're just
going for the Moto-X look. It's all fashion driven.

I agree that a flip-flop hub would be of more use to a singlespeed rider
than a rear disc.

To me, the main advantage of discs is better braking and no rim wear in
messy conditions. Otherwise their better performance is moot --
rim brakes work more than well enough.

Matt O.

Sheldon Brown said:

My report:

http://sheldonbrown.com/lasvegas/2006

Thanks for the report!

Among all those neat commuter bikes, I would have liked to have seen one
with hub gears, *and* fenders, *and* a chainguard. Why have hub gears
without a chainguard? Isn't that the whole point?

This after riding home at 1 AM last night in pouring rain, across the
horsey part of the VA Tech campus. If I had fenders and a chainguard I'd
be riding my bike today instead of cleaning it.

Matt O.

Buck said:

Sheldon Brown said:

"Kinda disappointed in Bianchi this year. They continue to believe that
disc brakes make sense on singlespeed bikes. This year they've got
three different singlespeed/disc mountain bikes and a singlespeed/disc
cyclocross bike as well!

"Using a disc brake means you can't use a flip-flop hub, so you'll be
stuck with only a single gear option.

"Also, as the chain wears and you move the wheel back in the axle
slots, the relationship between the disc and the caliper will change,
which is a Bad Thing.

"If you combine a disc brake with an old-fashioned rear-opening fork
end, as is currently fashionable, you have to undo the caliper just to
fix a flat tire!

"Nobody rides a singlespeed in terrain mountainous enough to actually
_need_ a rear disc brake."

There's no problem running a front disc if you prefer, but I'd strongly
advise going for a rim brake in back.

Sheldon,

Regarding your concerns about disc brakes on single-speeds, On-One now
uses sliding dropouts to maintian the relationship between caliper and
hub and still allow adjustment of the axle to bottom bracket length.
This seems like a reasonable solution which addresses most of your
concerns. A partial solution to the flip-flop hub concern would be the
surly cogs you presented on your report. They wouldn't allow a
fixed/free option, but at least there would be two gear ratios.

Those are fixed only. However, White Industries makes some very nice
two speed freewheels that would work in 16-18 and 17-19. I've got one
of the former on my Quickbeam.

http://sheldonbrown.com/harris/singlespeed.html#freewheels

Quoted message said:

I suppose the Bianchis did not have sliding dropouts.

Right. See: http://tinyurl.com/nfxoy

Quoted message said:

What do you think
of these solutions to the problems of a single-speed with disc brakes?

Those are solutions of a sort, but why not just avoid creating the
problem? Singlespeeds should be simple.

Quoted message said:

Link to sliding dropouts:
http://www.on-one.co.uk/index.php?module=announce&ANN_user_op=view&ANN_id=31

That particular sliding dropout does _not_ preserve the relationship
betwixt the rotor and caliper, because the caliper mounts to a frame
braze-on, not to the sliding dropout.

These Paragon dropouts do maintain this relationship:
http://tinyurl.com/rbjdp

Sheldon "K.I.S.S." Brown
+--------------------------------------------+
| I refuse to cooperate with the obnoxious |
| "challenge/response" anti-spam systems |
| like Spamblocker and Spamarrest |
| If you use one of these systems to write |
| to me, you will never see my reply, |
| because my filters treat the "challenge" |
| emails as the spam they are. |
+--------------------------------------------+

Sheldon Brown hatte geschrieben:

Quoted message said:

My report:

http://sheldonbrown.com/lasvegas/2006

| Quality Bicycle Products/Problem Solvers was showing a pre-production
| prototype of the "Sheldon Fender Nut." This is a peice of hardware I
| invented to facilitate mounting fenders on bikes with recessed brake
| hardware.

While I don't want to nit-pick, I do want to note that the honour for
inventing this nice little piece of hardware might well belong to M.
Berthoud who lists a very similar nut in his catalogue for quite some
time. Anyway, it is nice to have a second option soon. The Sheldon
Fender Nut appears to be more elegant also with a Allen head instead of
the hexagonal head of the French version.

Günther

Sheldon Brown said:

Matt O'Toole said:

Among all those neat commuter bikes, I would have liked to have seen one
with hub gears, *and* fenders, *and* a chainguard. Why have hub gears
without a chainguard? Isn't that the whole point?

This after riding home at 1 AM last night in pouring rain, across the
horsey part of the VA Tech campus. If I had fenders and a chainguard I'd
be riding my bike today instead of cleaning it.

Ooh, thanks for reminding me...I've long been a fan of the Breezer
Uptown 8, but this year I'm really in love, becasuse the 2007 model
will have not just a simple chainguard, but a FULL CHAINCASE! YAY!!!

I'm always suprised that bikes with a full chaincase are so uncommon
outside The Netherlands. Gearhub and full chaincase are default around
here for commuting.

Lou
--
Posted by news://news.nb.nu

Qui si parla Campagnolo said:

Diablo Scott said:

Sheldon Brown said:

My report:

http://sheldonbrown.com/lasvegas/2006

Photo of special merit:
http://sheldonbrown.com/lasvegas/2006/pages/sheldon-grant-jobst.html

There is a punch line out there for this pictire...not sure what it is
but there is....

Dear Peter,

Sheldon: "My shirt is smooth and black for better traction. Why are
you guys both wearing colored shirts with the same pattern and little
round knobs?"

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

Lou Holtman said:

I'm always suprised that bikes with a full chaincase are so uncommon
outside The Netherlands. Gearhub and full chaincase are default around
here for commuting.

I'm surprised some of the outfitters who do rail-trail trips haven't
picked up on them. One of the main costs of these operations is
maintenance. Rail-trails are never steep but are often dusty or muddy.
So single speed or hub gear bikes are perfect. With chaincases the
only regular maintenance that would be necessary is a quick wash and/or
wipe.

Matt O.

"Qui si parla Campagnolo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Diablo Scott said:

Sheldon Brown said:

My report:

http://sheldonbrown.com/lasvegas/2006

Photo of special merit:
http://sheldonbrown.com/lasvegas/2006/pages/sheldon-grant-jobst.html

There is a punch line out there for this picture...not sure what it is
but there is....

Are they laughing, or is it just stress relief?

Diablo Scott said:

Photo of special merit:
http://sheldonbrown.com/lasvegas/2006/pages/sheldon-grant-jobst.html

So Sheldon's now a redhead?

--Karen D.
me too!

Buck said:

I suppose the Bianchis did not have sliding dropouts. What do you think
of these solutions to the problems of a single-speed with disc brakes?

-Buck

Link to sliding dropouts:
http://www.on-one.co.uk/index.php?module=announce&ANN_user_op=view&ANN_id=31

I agree with Sheldon - these DOs do nothing to keep the alignment
between the rotor and the caliper intact.

My favorite solution is to use an EBB (Eccentric Bottom Bracket).
That way, the dropouts and brake are "always right" [TM], and the rear
wheel installation is a breeze. There's never any slippage to worry
about, either. You can also use a frame equipped for a rear
derailleur as a SS this way (though you lose major style points if you
leave the RD on the bike when riding it as a SS).

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $795 ti frame

Matt O'Toole said:

I'm surprised some of the outfitters who do rail-trail trips haven't
picked up on them. One of the main costs of these operations is
maintenance. Rail-trails are never steep but are often dusty or muddy.
So single speed or hub gear bikes are perfect.

I can't remember the exact grade off the top of my head, but isn't the
east end of the Virginia Creeper (Green Cove to Whitetop) 6%? Kinda
steep in my book!

Pat

On Mon, 09 Oct 2006 09:22:08 -0500, Pat Lamb <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Matt O'Toole said:

I'm surprised some of the outfitters who do rail-trail trips haven't
picked up on them. One of the main costs of these operations is
maintenance. Rail-trails are never steep but are often dusty or muddy.
So single speed or hub gear bikes are perfect.

I can't remember the exact grade off the top of my head, but isn't the
east end of the Virginia Creeper (Green Cove to Whitetop) 6%? Kinda
steep in my book!

Pat

Almost. 'close to 4%':

http://www.trails.com/tcatalog_trail.asp?trailid=XMR010-019

Pat Lamb said:

Matt O'Toole said:

I'm surprised some of the outfitters who do rail-trail trips haven't
picked up on them. One of the main costs of these operations is
maintenance. Rail-trails are never steep but are often dusty or muddy.
So single speed or hub gear bikes are perfect.

I can't remember the exact grade off the top of my head, but isn't the
east end of the Virginia Creeper (Green Cove to Whitetop) 6%? Kinda
steep in my book!

You may be right, but it's definitely an exception among rail trails. On
most, the grades are barely perceptible.

Matt O.

Quoted message said:

On Mon, 09 Oct 2006 09:22:08 -0500, Pat Lamb <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Matt O'Toole said:

I'm surprised some of the outfitters who do rail-trail trips haven't
picked up on them. One of the main costs of these operations is
maintenance. Rail-trails are never steep but are often dusty or muddy.
So single speed or hub gear bikes are perfect.

I can't remember the exact grade off the top of my head, but isn't the
east end of the Virginia Creeper (Green Cove to Whitetop) 6%? Kinda
steep in my book!

Pat

Almost. 'close to 4%':

http://www.trails.com/tcatalog_trail.asp?trailid=XMR010-019

Actually that seems about right. The Creeper definitely isn't as steep as
some road grades around here that I know are 6%. Also, most RR grades
don't exceed 3%, that extra 1% being a big deal but still possible.

Matt O.