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Riding Backwards?

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rec.sport.unicycling
Published
25 March 2005
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4 April 2005
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Moogs
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  1. On the idling debate: I like idling. I'm not too good at it, but it's
    classier than hopping. My brother is a muni guy, and almost never hops,
    can't do any trials, etc. His main focus is rolling, and if he can't
    roll it, he walks it. (there's not to much he can't roll, either. He was
    in our video rolling up a 6 set of stairs.) Anyway, he uses idling all
    the time for MUni, in cramped spots, whatever. He uses it to align his
    pedals for rolling hops, for aligning himself for things, regaining
    balance, etc. I contend Idling is a great MUni skill.

    --
    Fuego - Unicycle Ninja

    "Unicycling is more about the center of concentration than the center of
    balance."

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  2. Fuego said:

    1. it's classier than hopping.

    2. I contend Idling is a great MUni skill. [/B]

    "Classier" is subjective. Actually, I was thinking it would be classier
    to use stoplights to learn standstills (or hop to standstill). Still, I
    have learned to use the other skills instead of idling. For example, if
    you have spin, you shouldn't have to stop at the light in the first
    place. Spin through it or if you know you're going to miss it, go to a
    slow roll. Not sure how well that works in New York traffic, but it's
    worked for me in Austin and downtown Houston.

    Idling in MUni? I admit that I have not seen it much. I think that
    "continuous rolling," "gapping/rolling hops" have more value around
    these parts. On *rough* terrain, you'll buy yourself a UPD - might work
    on 29" stuff. I simply don't see a bunch (if any) idling - even by the
    guy that uses it during trials (and loves to do it). Didn't see it at
    MOAB either - but I haven't ridden with dozens of people on a huge
    variety of trails - so I am a bit short-sighted here.

    --
    ChangingLINKS.com - member

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  3. jsm said:

    *What's wrong with arguing the you should learn something because it's
    useful?

    Admitedly, not everyone is going to want to busk, or do freestyle
    skills, or do basketball or hockey, but most of us encounter some of
    the other situations at one time or another, and it's convenient not
    to have to dismount all the time.

    Summing this up, I maintian that idling is useful and important to
    learn. *

    I think you are missing the point.
    1. I am NOT saying to avoid learning to idle.
    2. I recognize that he's on a 20" Sun

    My point is that the skills I mentioned are more commonly used - and as
    a new/intermediate/advanced rider, he will GET MORE USE from them.

    Why dump 10 hours in to learning to idle and go backwards prior to
    learning to spin and turn? Suggestions from freestyle-happy-people is
    why. I took that advice and found it was wrong. Contrarily, when I posed
    the same question to Kris Holm, R. Atkins and Dan Heaton, I got an
    answer more in-line with what I posted. (Shamefully, I still haven't
    taken the time to do 10 miles of figure-8 to get better at turning (like
    Kris suggested - he told me to "learn to tearn really well), and it
    shows. But in jsm's eyes, I may be cooler for having done 10 miles
    backwards in on ride before. I disagree.)

    (As an aside, I think that idling looks more silly that hopping to
    standstill/stillstand - I guess because I associate it with "carnival
    types" and funny looking stuff like basketball (where there seems to be
    a lot of falling))

    Anyway, we can simply agree to disagree. To support my position, I only
    ask the original poster to WATCH others ride - and determine what skills
    are "more important to work on" - from what he sees USED.

    --
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  4. I guess we can agree to disagree on this, but I would like you to
    clarify one point; what do you mean my spinning? The proper spin is five
    full revolutions around a fixed point in an area smaller than one meter,
    and it's difficult (level six). I could do backward wheel walk, seat
    drag, and downhill gliding before I could really spin properly. So what
    do you mean by spin?

    I don't think I said anything about learning to idle before learning to
    turn. Turning is the most fundamental skill, after riding and
    freemounting, so obviously you should learn it first.

    --
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  5. Allow me to voice my whole hearted support for backwards riding and
    idling. Relatively speaking, I think I mastered both skills kind of
    quickly and can say that for all around balance, the backward and idling
    piece really furthers your progress as you work on different stuff.
    Obviously, if you can't turn well you probably shouldn't work on your
    backwards riding. When I was first learning to ride I saw a guy downtown
    idling at a stoplight and since then I've viewed that as a demonstration
    of advanced unicycle competency. I would hazard a guess that idling
    sooner or later is interrelated with many of the advanced skills this
    thread discusses.
    I want to echo a few things that I see as really informative and true
    to my experience. You will probably do a number on yourself when you try
    to learn to ride backwards. I read a good post months ago about a
    careful approach to backward riding that involved progressing one-half
    revolution at a time and trying to achieve a bit of balance each time.
    This cuts down on dangerous backward speed for the novice backward
    rider. Also, if you are thinking about riding backward and don't have
    wrist protection, now is probably the time. A helmet, sure. Wrist
    protection, definitely.

    --
    onewheeljoe - Former Cyclist
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  6. That reminds me of another thing to keep in mind for all unicycling, but
    especially for learning backward riding. Keep your shoelaces tucked in
    or tied up tight. My only serious fall when learning backward riding
    occured when my shoelaces got tangled in the cranks, so I was unable to
    run out of the fall.

    --
    jsm - Dark and stormy stand-up wheel walk

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  7. ChangingLINKS.com said:

    *
    Perhaps we were missing something, but I don't recall a single idle at
    the last trials competition, or San Antonio muni ride and I bet a $1
    that no one even used it at the first "rolling trials competition."
    *

    There were some people performing freestyle skills in the JuggleFest
    trials room and also outside.

    'Crank Idle' (http://gallery.unicyclist.com/JuggleFest05/PICT0006)
    'Wheel Walk' (http://gallery.unicyclist.com/JuggleFest05/PICT0060)

    --
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  8. ProudYankee said:

    *There were some people performing freestyle skills in the JuggleFest
    trials room and also outside.

    'Crank Idle' (http://gallery.unicyclist.com/JuggleFest05/PICT0006)
    'Wheel Walk' (http://gallery.unicyclist.com/JuggleFest05/PICT0060)

    I realize they were not competing in the trials competition at the
    time, but they are clearly skills that can be used "around other
    riders". *

    I put wheelwalking/gliding/coasting in a separate catagory.
    The same guy that did the crank idle also idles with legs crossed and
    such. And, admittedly he was "around other riders."

    Perhaps you don't see it, but there is a big "but" here . . . .

    --
    ChangingLINKS.com - member

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  9. jsm said:

    *I guess we can agree to disagree on this, but I would like you to
    clarify one point; what do you mean my spinning? The proper spin is
    five full revolutions around a fixed point in an area smaller than one
    meter, and it's difficult (level six). I could do backward wheel
    walk, seat drag, and downhill gliding before I could really spin
    properly. So what do you mean by spin?

    *

    In the cycling community (in general) "spinning" means to pedal fast and
    smoothly. Speed. There are "spinning classes" on stationary bikes in
    gyms nowadays. (I wonder if that is a fad)

    VIA JSM: I DON'T THINK I SAID ANYTHING ABOUT LEARNING TO IDLE BEFORE
    LEARNING TO TURN. TURNING IS THE MOST FUNDAMENTAL SKILL, AFTER RIDING
    AND FREEMOUNTING, SO OBVIOUSLY YOU SHOULD LEARN IT FIRST.

    Remember the original post?
    VIA MOOG: I'VE ADVANCED TO THE LEVEL WHERE I CAN GO UP AND DOWN FAIRLY
    STEEP AND LONG HILLS, STOP FOR ABOUT A SECOND AND THEN GET GOING AGAIN
    (THOUGH I CAN'T IDLE YET), I CAN'T DO JUMPS AND STUFF, I'M PRACTICING
    STOPPING WITH MY PEDALS PARALLEL TO THE GROUND TO DO THAT KIND OF STUFF.
    MY QUESTION IS THIS: WHERE DO I GO FROM HERE?

    My answer is "learn to turn, develop your ability to go fast (learn to
    spin or "pedal good"😉 hop, gap, climb(pedal really good) skinnies(keep
    balance over the uni and pedal smoothly), spinning (pedal quickly to
    keep up with other riders).

    All of the skills that I listed help the new rider get from point A to
    point B.
    Think about it with the skills I listed, he can ride across a grass
    field, around in the city (hopping or gapping up onto curbs) or fit in
    with any style of rider that he's around.

    Of course the answer I oppose is "do a crank idle."

    Can't see the logic there?
    Choose to maintain that idling and backwards are more important than
    basic riding skills?
    Hopefully, he and other riders will see the value in focusing on the
    fundamentals.

    As I pointed out earlier, the videos that make most of us go "Wow!" all
    feature these fundamental skills. The beautiful journeys by aspenmike,
    to the record breaking of Gizmoduck . . . .wait, I wonder how many idles
    and . . . oh forget it. I remember the idling and backwards competition
    in MOAB 2004 - oh . . . there wasn't one. You find it ironic that wheel
    walking, gliding, gapping and spinning (climbing and descending) were
    all featured?

    Perhaps I should point out 'The COOLEST pics of 2005'
    (http://tinyurl.com/5axlj) thread. Let's look at those "cool" photos . .
    . last I checked *every* skill that I mentioned was featured - and
    backwards and idling were "left out."
    I guess if one wants to be "backwards, idle, or left out" he *should*
    work on it. :o

    I post because I want to be *clear.*
    I'm past trying to convince those with "backwards and idle minds" . .

  10. For sake of fairness, allow me to present a "wow" factor video where
    idling and backward riding are very important, but gapping and climbing
    are not used at all. From John Foss's website, This is 'Ryan Woessner'
    (http://www.unicycling.com/naucc/2004071403.avi), quite possibly the
    best unicyclist around. Lots of the experts use idling.

    I agree that a beginning rider does not have to start work on idling
    immediately, but it could still be useful. Also, starting work on idling
    does not preclude the possibility of learning hopping, turning, and
    smooth riding. Although it is better to focus on those skills at first,
    it would still be a good idea to practice idling a five minutes a day.
    Because of the length of time it can take to learn it, it would be good
    to get a head-start.

    It is not possible to fit in with "any style of rider" without idling.
    It's a must for freestyle, basketball, and hockey, and those are
    certainly riding styles.

    --
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  11. jsm said:

    *It is not possible to fit in with "any style of rider" without
    idling. It's a must for freestyle, basketball, and hockey, and those
    are certainly riding styles.*

    I know that I'm exaggerating a bit here, but when did "basketball"
    become a riding style?
    Some would argue that tight turning and sprinting are enough to play
    hockey and basketball. Maybe not at the competition level - but
    definately for the *rare* and fun "pick up games" that exist today.

    Moreover, there are numerous replacements for idling. I count
    stillstands, hopping to stillstand, hopping, tight turns, riding
    extremely slowly (skinny-like riding) or even . . . . . (God forbid)
    dismounting and getting back on.

    Remember that thread about "which rider people wanted to be like"? I
    could be wrong, but I don't think your Ryan was mentioned. Moreover,
    after seeing the videos of other competitors that didn't fall off - I
    (and others watching) strongly questioned why he was deemed "the best."
    Still I think he is a good rider and love that "1-foot wheelwalk with
    seat in back" that he did. Amazing.

    --
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  12. ChangingLINKS.com said:

    I'm simply
    "pro-skills-you'll-actually-use-with-the-most-popular-riding-styles-today-and
    -around-other-riders."

    My problem is you go further than that! You ASSUME that offroad
    riding styles are the most popular. I think you are failing to see
    the light in two respects. First, I assert that offroad unicycling is
    getting more press than other styles partly because it is developing
    much more rapidly (as opposed to being more popular) and partly
    because it is just so darned cool and accessible to spectators.
    Second, and most important, in denying the validity of other styles,
    you are settling for less that you deserve.

    Let me explain this second point. I've been a rock climber for over
    20 years. And in that time I have pursued several distinct styles of
    climbing: Clean, sport, top rope, ice, mountaineering, bouldering,
    solo (roped and freee) and more. Many climbers identify with one
    style, and the result is that they either avoid other styles or get
    less out of the experience than they could. I found that over time,
    my interests would vary and I would switch focus from one style to
    another, often seeing new possibilities in areas I had previously
    neglected.

    To me, true mastery of climbing involves appreciation of all aspects
    of the sport along with a fine tuned perception of ones abilities.
    This includes achieving a degree of control that lets you climb free
    solo (where falling=death) and perceiving that this activity is little
    different from walking a cliffside trail. But another aspect of the
    mastery is being able to gain deep satisfaction from succes on a
    risk-free top rope problem.

    Now I have only been riding a few months longer than you, and I can
    assure you that neither of us are anywhere near mastering unicycling,
    but I am deeply convinced that a parallel exists between these sports,
    and that rejecting particular styles as uninteresting and unimportant
    is shortsighted.

    --------------

    Anyway, you dismiss idling as not useful, but tell me what you do when
    you ride up to a mailbox to retrieve your letters. I'm not going to
    be impresses if you dismount or bearhub the mailbox to keep upright.
    I'll laugh out loud if you hop (and hopefully your point in hopping
    would be to make me laugh). Of course you might stillstand while
    retrieving your mail. Send me a video of the latter and I promise to
    never challenge you in this forum again!

    But that's just one example. Suppose you come to a red traffic light,
    or have to stop to let pedestrians cross your path. Clearly you don't
    value participation in uni hockey or basketball. Juggling isn't your
    thing. You've already dismissed freestyle, but do you really think
    people who can't ride backwards or idle will have the skills to
    advance doing street tricks?

    Lastly, I'll state my bias. If you can only ride forward and hop at a
    stop, you're missing half of unicycling*.

    Ken

    * To be fair, I don't recommend riding backwards offroad without
    serious skills and serious armor.

  13. onewheeljoe said:

    Also, if you are thinking about riding backward and don't have
    wrist protection, now is probably the time. A helmet, sure. Wrist
    protection, definitely.

    I'll add a recommendation for elbow pads. I managed to hit both
    elbows hard enough I couldn't rest them on a table for months. Hey -
    backwards riding can improve your manners!

    Ken

  14. There should be no 'arguements' on whether a skill is 'usefull' or
    'needed'.

    I new rider needs guidance.
    Like learning anything, one should focus on a goal.
    (like learning guitar, pick a song you want to play)

    I've been riding for 35 years. Just to get around, and to see if I
    could still, 'just do it'.

    I've received renewed interest in my 'novelty' sport here in these
    forums. And it all started because I needed a new tire.

    So now, after 35 years, I'm actually spending 'the time' to learn stuff
    *I want to do*, like idleing, and going backwards.

    Because I:

    1. want to idle
    2. want to go backwards.

    --
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  15. Ken Cline said:


    ChangingLINKS: I'm simply
    "pro-skills-you'll-actually-use-with-the-most-popular-riding-styles-today-and
    -around-other-riders."
    Ken: My problem is you go further than that!

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Sounds like a personal problem.

    . You ASSUME that offroad riding styles are the most popular.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Nah. I know that there are more "freestyle" unicyclists than that


    of the other styles - (even more so if you count the multi-talented
    riders for each style they ride).

    . in denying the validity of other styles,
    you are settling for less that you deserve.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    I was not denying the validity of freestyle - or any other style


    for that matter. I denied the validity of teaching a level 1 rider
    that he should start working on level 4 stuff because of some type of
    self-esteem problem.

    . rejecting particular styles as uninteresting and unimportant is
    shortsighted.

    Maybe. Maybe not. As humans we accept some things and reject others by
    nature. More importantly, I DON'T reject any style. I can idle. I can
    ride backwards. Rejection? I reject teaching level 1 riders to move on
    to level 4 skills immediately because of some sort of ego issue.

    . you dismiss idling as not useful

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    > No. It's useful. I've seen clowns and jugglers do it. More


    correctly, I pointed out alternatives.

    . tell me what you do when
    you ride up to a mailbox to retrieve your letters.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    > LOL. OK, but first tell me how you have sex on an unicycle.


    Shower? Have a life? Bueller? Anyone? 🙄

    . I'm not going to be impresses if you dismount or bearhub the mailbox
    to keep upright.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    > I sincerely state for the record: I don't care to impress people


    who think it's important to ride a unicycle while getting the mail.

    . I promise to never challenge you in this forum again!

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    > I wasn't aware that you posed a challenge. If you didn't chime in,


    I'd be bored - notice all my posts today? It rained. Dammit! I could
    be "idling in the rain!" 😄

    . Suppose you come to a red traffic light, or have to stop to let
    pedestrians cross your path.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    > Let's not go there. You're not thinking much about the safety of


    others and yourself if you're so worried about "busting a stylish
    idle" in dangerous situations. There are many alternatives that are
    safer, in more control and "cooler" including:
    Being aware enough to slow down prior to reaching the intersection
    with an "extremely slow" roll.
    Neo: You mean I'll be able to dodge traffic lights?
    Morpheous: No, Neo what I'm telling you is if you pay enough
    attention, and you won't have to stop at traffic lights.

    . Clearly you don't value participation in uni hockey or basketball.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    > Nope. Love 'em. Are you reading what I'm writing or just trying to


    define my position as illogical - like telling a level 1 rider to work
    on level 4 skills immediately because of some over-zealous lust for
    flatland unicycling?

    . Juggling isn't your thing.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    > Correct. But, that doesn't mean it's not useful. I've seen clowns


    and jugglers do it.

    . You've already dismissed freestyle, but do you really think
    people who can't ride backwards or idle will have the skills to
    advance doing street tricks?

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    > Yes. That goes for muni also. One of the best riders in this town


    (in my opinion) doesn't idle or go backwards - but he trashes the
    trails heartily.

    Lastly, I'll state my bias. If you can only ride forward and hop at a
    stop, you're missing half of unicycling*.
    Ken

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    > I disagree. It's definately more than half.


    I'll state my bias:
    If you gotta resort to telling a level 1 rider to work on level 4
    skills to boost your self-worth, I'd recommend sticking to 'other
    tatics' (http://tinyurl.com/4847w)😎

    --
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  16. Quoted message said:

    If you gotta resort to telling a level 1 rider to work on level 4
    skills to boost your self-worth

    What exactly are you accusing me of? Why would telling someone he should
    start work on idling boost my self-esteem? My reason for suggesting that
    a level one rider start learning idling (at the same time as hopping,
    etc.) is quite simple: it's a very useful skill (as I demonstrated
    earlier, and as several others pointed out) and one every rider should
    know. It takes a long time to learn, but the sooner you start, the
    sooner you'll get it. If you start practicing it when you are level one,
    and practice it ten minutes a day, you'll get it sooner than if you wait
    till you are an expert MUni rider. If my reason for suggesting idling
    and backward riding was to promote freestyle riding over other styles,
    think again. Backward riding and idling aren't just freestyle skills,
    they're basic skills every rider should know. (as I said above) If I was
    just trying to promote freestyle riding, I would additionally have
    suggested one-footed riding, seat in front riding, and possibly even
    wheel walking. But I didn't. Those are fundamental freestyle skills, and
    ones he could consider starting work on, (well maybe not ww) but they
    aren't that useful for any other styles, so I didn't go out of my way to
    promote them.

    If you look back, you'll see I didn't originally even suggest he start
    working on idling. Mostly what I did was try to write something
    discouraging a total beginner from believing your ipsedixitism "Riding
    backwards and idling aren't necessary. Most of us can go weeks without
    using either skill.", and because of it not bothering to learn either
    skill ever.

    You also are suggesting he start work on what is practically a level
    four skill. Hopping is level three, and gapping is certainly a good deal
    harder than basic hopping, so it's reasonable to assume its difficulty
    level is on a par with most of the level four skills.

    In summation, there's nothing wrong with starting work on idling when
    you are level one, so long as you work on other skills as well.

    --
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  17. ChangingLINKS.com said:

    *Perhaps I should point out 'The COOLEST pics of 2005'
    (http://tinyurl.com/5axlj) thread. Let's look at those "cool" photos .
    . . . last I checked *every* skill that I mentioned was featured - and
    backwards and idling were "left out."
    I guess if one wants to be "backwards, idle, or left out" he *should*
    work on it. :o
    *

    It sounds like you're suggesting to the original poster that he should
    only work on those skills which "look cool" to others. I don't agree at
    all.

    If he manages to perform a trick or skill that impresses other people,
    but he doesn't enjoy doing it, then what's the point? He's not enjoying
    himself, so why did he bother with it? He's not a circus entertainer
    out to impress an audience.

    I suppose there are two motivating factors to learn a skill:
    1) You want to impress others.
    2) You enjoy learning or doing the skill.

    I put myself in category (2). I enjoyed learning to idle and would do
    it again, even though I don't use it very much now from a practical
    perspective. There was a certain inner satisfaction in mastering that
    skill.

    It's a lot of fun for me now since it feels like dancing. I don't
    really care whether someone else is impressed by it or not. If I really
    cared that much, I suppose I would join the circus.

    --
    ProudYankee
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  18. Dear Ken Cline:

    We'll have to start a club of climbers/unicyclists. The ranks seem to be
    growing daily, especially with Muni.

    Per backward riding, I'm with Harper. Super idling is not only a good
    way to wire both idling and the initial part of backward riding, it's a
    great balance exercise as well.

    JL

    --
    vivalargo - Santa Barbara Unicycle Club
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  19. Unitik908 said:

    *no no no your seat is fine but your new so your legs have to get to
    using those muscles.. give it some time and your legs will strengthen
    up and youll be good as new.

    Chase *

    Well, unfortunately, I don't think the issue is muscles, I think the
    seat is chafing against my thighs... it doesn't feel like muscle hurt, I
    only feel it on the cycle, and it only hurts when it rubs on the seat 🙁
    Is that usual?

    --
    Moogs
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  20. Moogs said:

    *Well, unfortunately, I don't think the issue is muscles, I think the
    seat is chafing against my thighs... it doesn't feel like muscle hurt,
    I only feel it on the cycle, and it only hurts when it rubs on the
    seat 🙁 Is that usual? *

    What saddle do you have? Can you find a picture of it at Unicycle.com
    if you're not sure of the brand?

    There are some saddles that are bad for chafing, like the Savage
    saddles. You might have one of the bad saddles.

    --
    john_childs - Guinness Mojo

    john_childs (att) hotmail (dott) com
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