The ceremonies are indeed interesting to watch. One thing stood out, however - in all the hundreds of elegantly dressed church dignitaries, cardinlals, bishops, pall bearers, officials, etc., there was not one single woman. It's a forceful reminder of how, despite all his work for human rights, JP II dragged the church back to the 19th century when it comes to woman's equality.
I am glad someone finds them interesting. I find it all boring.
But you are right about the women. I keep hearing people say he did great things, but I am wondering what on earth those great deeds are. None of them involved taking the church out of the dark ages. The RC church is facing a major problem in North America, a drastic shortage of priests. This pope has done nothing to allow women into the priesthood or to get rid of that meaningless requirement for celibacy that has done little more than attract men with an obviously perverse view of sex into the priesthood,
The ceremonies are indeed interesting to watch. One thing stood out, however - in all the hundreds of elegantly dressed church dignitaries, cardinlals, bishops, pall bearers, officials, etc., there was not one single woman. It's a forceful reminder of how, despite all his work for human rights, JP II dragged the church back to the 19th century when it comes to woman's equality.
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But you are right about the women. I keep hearing people say he did great things, but I am wondering what on earth those great deeds are. None of them involved taking the church out of the dark ages. The RC church is facing a major problem in North America, a drastic shortage of priests. This pope has done nothing to allow women into the priesthood or to get rid of that meaningless requirement for celibacy that has done little more than attract men with an obviously perverse view of sex into the priesthood,
Wow. You said what I've thought all along. They set up this weird lifestyle, then they are shocked it attracted men who are trying to run away from their urges or whatever. Then, why women accept being second class citizens in their own church, I don't know. Clean the bathrooms, cook the food, but be a priest??? Oh no. I was thinking of the priest shortage, how much would that help if women could be a real part of the church in that capacity?
The ceremonies are indeed interesting to watch. One thing stood
out,
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however - in all the hundreds of elegantly dressed church
dignitaries,
Quoted message said:
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cardinlals, bishops, pall bearers, officials, etc., there was not
one single
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woman. It's a forceful reminder of how, despite all his work for
human
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Quoted message said:
rights, JP II dragged the church back to the 19th century when it
comes to
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woman's equality.
I am glad someone finds them interesting. I find it all boring.
But you are right about the women. I keep hearing people say he did
great
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things, but I am wondering what on earth those great deeds are. None
of them
Quoted message said:
involved taking the church out of the dark ages. The RC church is
facing a
Quoted message said:
major problem in North America, a drastic shortage of priests. This
pope has
Quoted message said:
done nothing to allow women into the priesthood or to get rid of that meaningless requirement for celibacy that has done little more than
attract men
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with an obviously perverse view of sex into the priesthood,
It would be nice if the new Pope had at least a toe in reality...population control is perhaps the most serious issue in the world today, and stem-cell research is one of the most vital medical developments in this century. Both these issues need to be re-addressed in a viable way by the Catholic Church.
Wow. You said what I've thought all along. They set up this weird lifestyle, then they are shocked it attracted men who are trying to run away from their urges or whatever. Then, why women accept being second class citizens in their own church, I don't know. Clean the bathrooms, cook the food, but be a priest??? Oh no. I was thinking of the priest shortage, how much would that help if women could be a real part of the church in that capacity?
Lets just say that I have no time for women who complain about the patriarchy of the church. If they belong to a church that treats them like a second class citizen then that is exactly the type of treatment they deserve. I was listening to comments on the radio (CBC) yesterday and was surprised that male callers (during the time I was listening) were down on the church for keeping women out of the priesthood, but the women callers had no problem with it. One said that it just wouldn't be her church if they allowed women to be priest. Another said that women do have equal power in the church and that allowing women to be priests would not give them any more power than they already have. Well gee. if you aren't a priest you can't be a bishop, an archbishop, a cardinal or pope. You can't be anything. You are shut out. Strangely, women go to church more than men.
It would be nice if the new Pope had at least a toe in reality...population control is perhaps the most serious issue in the world today, and stem-cell research is one of the most vital medical developments in this century. Both these issues need to be re-addressed in a viable way by the Catholic Church.
Indeed. Unfortunately, religion and reality are mutually incompatible. What troubles me most is the moral superiority that people assume with religion. I have never seen that as a strong correlation.
"Dave Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...
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Nancy Young said:
Wow. You said what I've thought all along. They set up this weird lifestyle, then they are shocked it attracted men who are trying to run away from their urges or whatever. Then, why women accept being second class citizens in their own church, I don't know. Clean the bathrooms, cook the food, but be a priest??? Oh no. I was thinking of the priest shortage, how much would that help if women could be a real part of the church in that capacity?
Lets just say that I have no time for women who complain about the patriarchy of the church. If they belong to a church that treats them like a second class citizen then that is exactly the type of treatment they deserve. I was listening to comments on the radio (CBC) yesterday and was surprised that male callers (during the time I was listening) were down on the church for keeping women out of the priesthood, but the women callers had no problem with it. One said that it just wouldn't be her church if they allowed women to be priest. Another said that women do have equal power in the church and that allowing women to be priests would not give them any more power than they already have. Well gee. if you aren't a priest you can't be a bishop, an archbishop, a cardinal or pope. You can't be anything. You are shut out. Strangely, women go to church more than men.
I'm one of those women who go to church and have no problem with the status quo -- oh, correction, I'm all for married priests such as the Eastern Rites Catholics have. If women were to be ordained (which is not likely to happen in my lifetime or that of my daughter) I'd have no problem with it, but lack of female ordination is not something that keeps me up nights.
I'm one of those women who go to church and have no problem with the status quo -- oh, correction, I'm all for married priests such as the Eastern Rites Catholics have. If women were to be ordained (which is not likely to happen in my lifetime or that of my daughter) I'd have no problem with it, but lack of female ordination is not something that keeps me up nights.
So you have no problem with your church deeming you to be unworthy of a position due to your gender?
Lets just say that I have no time for women who complain about the patriarchy of the church. If they belong to a church that treats them like a second class citizen then that is exactly the type of treatment they deserve.
I'm not sure that Roman Catholic women are second class. The Church allows, nay, encourages, them to have sex lives, while telling the 'best and brightest' of the men they can't.
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[snip] One [woman] said that it just wouldn't be her church if they allowed women to be priest.
Reasoned argument doesn't enter into religious discussion. "It just .....", in other words an assertion of belief, is sufficient.
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Another said that women do have equal power in the church and that allowing women to be priests would not give them any more power than they already have. [snip]
See above. Statements contrary to fact are common from the religious. -aem
But you are right about the women. I keep hearing people say he did great things, but I am wondering what on earth those great deeds are. None of them involved taking the church out of the dark ages.
"aem" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...
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Dave Smith said:
Lets just say that I have no time for women who complain about the patriarchy of the church. If they belong to a church that treats them like a second class citizen then that is exactly the type of treatment they deserve.
I'm not sure that Roman Catholic women are second class. The Church allows, nay, encourages, them to have sex lives, while telling the 'best and brightest' of the men they can't.
Nay, the church does not encourage women to have sex lives. It encourages them to have babies. A "sex life" implies that enjoyment is part of the deal.
-- Peter Aitken
Remove the [censored] from my email address before using.
Lets just say that I have no time for women who complain about the patriarchy of the church. If they belong to a church that treats them like a second class citizen then that is exactly the type of treatment they deserve.
That's a truly bizarre attitude. Taken to its logical conclusion it would say that no one can point out flaws in an organization and try to change it for the better. It's either get out or shut up. Do you really believe that? I have respect for the woman for stay with the church they love, despite its flaws, and try to change it for the better.
It is a church, one of many (Christian) denomination, not a country. If they feel that the church is too patriarchal then they should withdraw. How long do you think that a church led by a supposedly celibate clergy would survive if their most active supporters walked out on them?
I suppose they could try to effect change from within, but all the top positions are males.
If they don't enjoy it, the hubby is to blame, not the church. Even I will not accuse the Roman church of telling women not to enjoy sex. That's the Baptists.... <g> -aem
Baptists are opposed to having sex in a standing position.
That's precious! I'm a Southern Baptist, now Episcopalian, and soon-to-be Roman Catholic. Sex in the Catholic church, from what I understand is for the creation of life, not for enjoyment. But what the hey, I'm sure there are many Catholics who enjoy sex and consider it a gift from God.
Mary
Dave Smith said:
aem said:
If they don't enjoy it, the hubby is to blame, not the church.
Even I
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will not accuse the Roman church of telling women not to enjoy sex. That's the Baptists.... <g> -aem
Baptists are opposed to having sex in a standing position.
"Mash" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...
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That's precious! I'm a Southern Baptist, now Episcopalian, and soon-to-be Roman Catholic. Sex in the Catholic church, from what I understand is for the creation of life, not for enjoyment. But what the hey, I'm sure there are many Catholics who enjoy sex and consider it a gift from God.
Considering that the church tells husbands to make sure their wives enjoy sex, indeed advises them to masturbate their wives to orgasm if they haven't reached that point during intercourse, I don't think anyone can honestly say that the Church doesn't want one to 'enjoy sex'.
"Dave Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...
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Gabby said:
I'm one of those women who go to church and have no problem with the status quo -- oh, correction, I'm all for married priests such as the Eastern Rites Catholics have. If women were to be ordained (which is not likely to happen in my lifetime or that of my daughter) I'd have no problem with it, but lack of female ordination is not something that keeps me up nights.
So you have no problem with your church deeming you to be unworthy of a position due to your gender?
I don't think the Church deems me, as a woman, 'unworthy' of ordination. The apostles were male and the priests have ever since been male. I don't have a problem with that. I do have a problem with the way the church treated married priests back in the 1100s and I wish they would change the discipline that calls for priests to be celibate. Those men deserve the right to share their lives with someone. Or some would say, have the right to be just as miserable as any other married man. <vbg>
"Dave Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...
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Gabby wrote: I do have a problem with the way the church treated married priests back in the 1100s and I wish they would change the discipline that calls for priests to be celibate. Those men deserve the right to share their lives with someone. Or some would say, have the right to be just as miserable as any other married man. <vbg>
lol. As I see it, when you will accept as priests only those men who have taken a vow of celibacy, to make them give up their normal sexual urges, you end up only with people who have abnormal sexual urges.
Years ago, kids started preparing for the priesthood at such a young age that they never really matured in their sexuality. I remember my brother being groomed at the age of 8 to go to college and be a priest. Luckily for him, and luckily for the priesthood, the people who were going to make that happen were old and died before anything could come of it -- he still gets mad when he talks about it.
Today the men I meet who are preparing for the priesthood in Canada have already lived a life. They are usually more mature, much older (35-55), more experienced and know what they are giving up. Many people chose to be celibate for a variety of reasons. Sex is fun and makes life very interesting -- and while it's necessary to transmit life, it's not at all necessary for living.
As I see it, when you will accept as priests only those men who have taken a vow of celibacy, to make them give up their normal sexual urges, you end up only with people who have abnormal sexual urges.
There is an incredible irony about a religion that preaches family values but whose leadership is a group of men who have given up hope of having a family.
I think most would say that they have a very large family indeed.
Probably. Yet another case of repeating something so often that people start to believe it. Family is family, not just a collection of people in your church. That is a different type of association, not family in the true sense. I just can't see someone counselling others on marriage and parenthood when that person has never and will never be married or a parent.
