Red Blinky lights

feel the light said:

I hate to prove my point in such a macabre way. Sadly, I am right.
Just read the cases. The vast majority were struck from behind and
killed. Dozens of riders dead, this week.

In the UK, fatalities struck from behind are rare - drivers rarely
drive into things on straightforward roads. It's junctions where the
danger occurs.

The press reporting is probably biased to report the 'just drove over
the cyclist' cases precisely because they are so rare - we had one in
the UK relatively recently, killing a fairly high-profile competitive
cyclist. It's always dubious to draw conclusions from press reports
(certainly, I've noticed that whenever I have any factual knowledge
on a topic, the press reports have fundamental errors in them - surely
they don't only have those errors in the things I know about?)

It's not necesarily teh case that bicycle casualty chances correlate
exactly with unicycle, and I'm not away of any unicyclist accident
statistics.

Of course, it may be that the drivers local to you are completely
different to the drivers in the UK (you mention drink-driving, for
example - the UK now has relatively low tolerance of drink-driving,
but is excessively tolerant of breaking the speed limit).

regards, Ian SMith
--
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|o o|
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rob.northcott said:

Strictly speaking it's illegal to ride on the road in the UK without
pedal reflectors (although I think racing bikes below a certain weight
are exempt as long as they are not used in the dark),

It's generally believed that no cycle is required to have reflectors
during daylight hours, but I'm not convinced of this from my reading of
the regulations. After dark, the only exemptions are for cycles
manufactured before 01/10/85.

Quoted message said:

which makes all my bikes and unicycles illegal (bikes have PD-A520 SPD
pedals and unicycles have DMR V8s, neither of which are suitable for
mounting reflectors), but my SPD shoes have reflective heels and my
cycling tights have reflective strips on the calves and ankles, so I
don't think it's really a problem

The lighting regs make interesting reading [1], in conjunction with the
2005 updates [2]. I find that the most difficult part to comply with
is the requirement for all pedals to have reflectors that are clearly
visible from the front and rear. Shouldn't be a problem on a unicycle,
but this requirement effectively makes it illegal to ride a recumbent,
a tandem, or a bike with laden rear panniers.

Quoted message said:

- I've never had any complaints from the police anyway, and I feel
perfectly visible in the dark.

The only time it's likely to be a problem is if you get hit by a car and
the motorist's insurance company's weasel lawyer claims contributory
negligence on the grounds that your reflectors didn't comply with the
letter of the law.

[1] http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si1989/Uksi_19891796_en_1.htm
[2] http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2005/20052559.htm

--
Danny Colyer

'http://www.redpedals.co.uk' (http://www.colyer.plus.com/danny/)
"He who dares not offend cannot be honest." - Thomas Paine
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feel the light said:

I typed "bicyclist struck by car ", into google news search. It brought
up hundreds of pages. Here is the link.
http://tinyurl.com/25ymyf
If the link doesn't work (how long does a google search last ?), just
type those words in google news search yourself.
I hate to prove my point in such a macabre way. Sadly, I am right.
Just read the cases. The vast majority were struck from behind and
killed. Dozens of riders dead, this week.
This of course does not surprise me. I have read many similar
accounts in my local paper. 🙁

First of all, the plural of "anecdote" is not "data".

Second of all, your anecdotes don't say what you're claiming.

Quoted message said:

Tullio was traveling westbound on the sidewalk located on the south
shoulder of Cortez Road when he was hit as he crossed the intersection
of 124th Street Court West.

Quoted message said:

According to police and witnesses, the driver of the vehicle made a
U-turn in a parking lot, then drove down a sidewalk on the south side
of University, struck Campbell and his red bicycle, and left the scene,
witnesses said.

etc., etc.

Quoted message said:

Police said the driver of the car was headed east on Fort Hill Road at
5:17 p.m. The boy on the bike was going west. Police said the car cut
across the eastbound lane to turn into the Midway Shopping Plaza and
struck the bicyclist.

Quoted message said:

Deputies say the car was making a left turn when it struck the
bicyclist, who was pronounced dead at the scene.

So, thanks for making my point. As I noted, there are multiple studies
on this subject which corroborate this anecdotal evidence.

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anyone can read that link. Perhaps 5% were killed in intersections, 10 %
other ways. I can't argue the obvious. Story after story, bicyclist hit
from behind, is listed as the cause in the vast majority of cases. That
is not debatable. You can read and count or you can't.
And why is this not real data ? Were they not as real as you ? How
do you imagine "real" researchers acquire their data ? I'm not cherry
picking stories. The second person listed was hit from behind by a cop
!
I will rest my case, I can do no more. It's very depressing reading
over the 100's of listed fatalities. And equally depressing reading
these illogical, head in the sand comments. 🙁 If you want to look
away from danger (instead of riding facing the car), go ahead and
pretend that is safe. Feel comfortable. I will go my own way, in truth
no paths are safe. I just like to see whats coming, maybe that will
give me the extra fraction of time to dodge, maybe not.
And use lots of red blinky lights !🙂

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feel the light said:

That is not debatable. You can read and count or you can't.

I am willing to accept a random search on Google as "anecdotal data" so
let's count:

1. Doesn't say
2. Hit from behind
3. Intersection/driveway
4. Doesn't say
5. Hit from behind
6. "travelling in the same direction"
7. Deliberate! (not hit from behind)
8. Intersection/driveway
9. Doesn't say

That's page one. Three hits from behind, three definitely not from
behind and three more that didn't say. What were we trying to prove
here? Where do you get the 5% and 10%?

--
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John Foss
Email: "jfoss" at "unicycling.com" -- www.unicycling.com
-----------------------------------------------

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weekends is an XC trail." -- Kris Holm, on XC from a North Shore point
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feel the light said:

anyone can read that link. Perhaps 5% were killed in intersections, 10 %
other ways. I can't argue the obvious. Story after story, bicyclist hit
from behind, is listed as the cause in the vast majority of cases. That
is not debatable. You can read and count or you can't.
And why is this not real data ? Were they not as real as you ? How
do you imagine "real" researchers acquire their data ? I'm not cherry
picking stories. The second person listed was hit from behind by a cop
!
I will rest my case, I can do no more. It's very depressing reading
over the 100's of listed fatalities. And equally depressing reading
these illogical, head in the sand comments. 🙁 If you want to look
away from danger (instead of riding facing the car), go ahead and
pretend that is safe. Feel comfortable. I will go my own way, in truth
no paths are safe. I just like to see whats coming, maybe that will
give me the extra fraction of time to dodge, maybe not.
And use lots of red blinky lights !🙂

Yes, either you can read and count or you can't. The people who've
read accident reports and counted have found that less than 10% of
bike/car accidents occur when the car is overtaking the cyclist. The
link you provided does nothing to dispute that.

Once again, if you're actually concerned for your safety, read
Effective Cycling.

--
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It's worth noting that since most cyclists ride in the same direction as
traffic, most cycling accidents along straight sections of road will necessarily
be cyclists struck from behind. Observing this fact in isolation can tell you
nothing about the relative safety of riding with or against traffic.

The trouble with cycling against traffic, aside for intersection issues, is that
the closing speed between the cyclist and the vehicle is much faster than it is
when riding with traffic. This isn't an issue with pedestrians, so it's usually
advised that pedestrians walk facing traffic.

It's worth noting that in most places cyclists are treated as vehicles just like
motorcycles and cars (with a few exceptions regarding what lanes they can occupy
under what situations, etc). Therefore you might find yourself on the wrong end
of a moving violation if you (uni)cycle on the wrong side of the road.

I think as a rule of thumb, if you're riding a small wheel and going no faster
than running pace, you should probably keep well off the road and treat yourself
as a pedestrian. If you're on a big wheel going faster than running pace, you
should be riding in/with traffic like any other cyclist/vehicle.

Cheers - Tony 'Nicoya' Mantler 🙂

--
Tony 'Nicoya' Mantler - Master of Code-fu
-- [email hidden] -- http://www.ubb.ca/ --

I decided to do the next 3 pages, to see what this random selection
would reveal, no cherry picking data !`
Page 2
1. driveway
2. biker falls into path of car
3. Struck from behind ( STB)
4. Hit 11 bikers ? Didn't say
5. Car turns in front
6. Didn't say
7. Intentional ! Don't fight and ride away on your bike !
8 SFB
Page 3
9 Run over while doing tricks
1o Hit and run, on straight road, didn't say, fatality
11 Car turned in front
12 2 killed by truck at intersection
13 Struck in front- no bike light
14 SFB
15 SFB- while riding around a rock (would you do that facing the car
?)
16 SFB
Page 4
17 Didn't say
18 SFB
19 SFB
20 Didn't say
21 Child in parking lot
22 SFB
23 Didn't say
24 SFB
25 hits parked car
So the tally of this larger sample is
9 hit from behind, traveling with traffic
2 hit at intersection
5 didn't say
4 Rider error
4 other
For some reason this adds up to only 24. I'm new at this !
Obviously, a sample of only 25 is not as accurate as if I did many
more. Although my tally shows less then 50 % of these crashes were SFB,
I think it is safe to assume that some of the hit and run fatalities,
despite no witnesses, were from drunks who struck the person from
behind, and fled to avoid prison.
Tholub may insist all he wants that the majority of crashes are at
intersections. Let him do the next few pages, I think I have done my
part. Time to go riding !🙂

--
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feel the light said:

For some reason this adds up to only 24. I'm new at this !
Obviously, a sample of only 25 is not as accurate as if I did many
more. Although my tally shows less then 50 % of these crashes were SFB,
I think it is safe to assume that some of the hit and run fatalities,
despite no witnesses, were from drunks who struck the person from
behind, and fled to avoid prison.
Tholub may insist all he wants that the majority of crashes are at
intersections. Let him do the next few pages, I think I have done my
part. Time to go riding !🙂

You clearly don't have any interest in learning new information, but
here is some information which represents a lot more data than the
first two pages of Google News:

For the adult urban cyclist, the most frequently occuring car-bike
collisions are:

Table 28.6, [Forester 93]

1. Motorist turning left
2. Signal light change
3. Motorist turning right
4. Motorist restarting from stop sign
5. Motorist exiting commercial driveway
6. Motorist overtaking unseen cyclist (mostly in darkness)
7. Motorist overtaking too closely
8. Cyclist hitting slower-moving car

References which you'd find useful if you are interested in expanding
your knowledge:

Bicyclesafe.com: http://bicyclesafe.com/

[Kaplan 76] Kaplan, Jerrold A.; Characteristics of the Regular Adult
Bicycle User; MS thesis U of Maryland, 1975.

Kenneth Cross and Gary Fisher, A study of Bicycle/Motor Vehicle
Accidents: Identification of Problem Types and CounterMeasure
Approaches (NHTSA, 1977). This study showed that cyclists do learn
from experience how to avoid car-bike collisions.

John Forester, Bicycle Transportation, MIT Press, 1983
This contains a lot of information on the engineering of bikeways, and
data on accidents and how road conditions cause them.

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You are quoting conclusions from studies that are 30 years old. Just
for kicks, do you have any explanation, or any concern, for why these
conclusions are so far removed from actual reality ? Lot's of things
in books is just garbage. The list of google news stories is actual
people that were in actual crashes this week. Why do you not trust
this source ? It comes from hundreds of disinterested sources, with no
view point to sell. Do you need an expert quoting a book to form your
opinions for you ? Books from the 70's ?

--
feel the light
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feel the light said:

You are quoting conclusions from studies that are 30 years old. Just
for kicks, do you have any explanation, or any concern, for why these
conclusions are so far removed from actual reality ? Lot's of things
in books is just garbage. The list of google news stories is actual
people that were in actual crashes this week. Why do you not trust
this source ? It comes from hundreds of disinterested sources, with no
view point to sell. Do you need an expert quoting a book to form your
opinions for you ? Books from the 70's ?

Come back when you understand the concepts of "sample size" and
"selection bias."

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Remember how you went over several pages of google accident reports,
used only the three that backed you up, and claimed it proved something
? Yet when I categorized every entry in those pages (no bias ), it
shows quite conclusively that being struck from the rear is much more
common then intersection crashes.
Maybe your book is wrong Tholub. Sometimes we need to look at fresh
data, and think for ourselves.
The sample size of 25 consecutive stories is to small to give
accurate numbers, but I am satisfied that I have proved my point with
data available to us all. If you want to list the next 50-100-500,
whatever, I would respect you for that. Perhaps there was an odd run of
favorable data that won't hold up in a larger sample. The odds seem
against it. Look if you want, you seem to believe you will find
something different.
There seems to be almost universal acceptance that pedestrians are
safer walking facing traffic. I hope some of you will look at the
evidence, and ride your uni's a bit more like a pedestrian in places
where that would reduce the chance of being struck . Good luck !🙂

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I don't tend to uni at night much, but when I do, I really like my Bell
Metropolis helmet. I can use the attached mirror to see behind me and
clip on the Blackburn Mars 2.0 light (five bulbs in the rear facing red
and one on each side in amber) that came with it. I haven't settled on
a favorite front light.

feel_the_light-
you are either actually out there riding against traffic and doing a
disservice to the rest of the riding public by doing so (because thanks
to you, drivers will continue to expect cyclists of all kinds to ride
unpredictably, yadda yadda) OR you are a colossal troll of the highest
order. Either way, thanks for my new sig.

--
mboulanger

"Lot's of things in books is just garbage." -feel_the_light, explaining
why he rides against traffic at night.
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feel the light said:

There seems to be almost universal acceptance that pedestrians are safer
walking facing traffic. I hope some of you will look at the evidence,
and ride your uni's a bit more like a pedestrian in places where that
would reduce the chance of being struck.

There is nearly equal universal acceptance that bicyclists are safer
riding with traffic. That's what all the experts say worldwide, not
counting your elementary school in the 60s, or otherwise advice given
to kids along with "never ride in the street."

That said, most of us are talking about riding *fast* here. As I
mentioned somewhere earlier, this advice is for people going cyclist
speeds, not pedestrian speeds. Cyclists, if you will. Again, if you're
on a 24" or smaller, you should probably ride like a pedestrian.
Anything bigger, and you should ride where a bike is supposed to be.
And that's not popping out from my right as I turn onto a busy street!

Notice most of the accidents in your Google search were hit at night,
without lights/reflectors, which brings us back to the topic of this
thread. Make sure you're well-lit at dusk and night! Be careful at
intersections, whichever way you're riding, and expect cars to not see
you! This is the same rule you have to learn when you ride a
motorcycle. Many drivers just scan for cars and miss the small stuff...

--
johnfoss

John Foss
Email: "jfoss" at "unicycling.com" -- www.unicycling.com
-----------------------------------------------

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feel the light said:

You are quoting conclusions from studies that are 30 years old. Just
for kicks, do you have any explanation, or any concern, for why these
conclusions are so far removed from actual reality ?

Quick recap:

Feel.the.light makes a statement that almost everyone who has
expressed an opinion disagrees with.

Feel.the.light 'proves' his case by counting google hits.

Some actual published peer-reviewed professionally-gathered statistics
are presented which disagree with feel.the.light. Feel.the.light's
conclusion is that the massive discrepancy between his opinion and the
statistics simply proves that the statistics have to be wrong.

Quoted message said:

Lot's of things in books is just garbage. The list of google news
stories is actual people that were in actual crashes this week.

And counting google hits is much more reliable. I wonder why police
and medics and governments bother with all that reporting work.
Feel.the.light could save them all the bother just by counting google
hits.

Quoted message said:

Why do you not trust this source ?

I have already answered this - before you even asked it.

regards, Ian Smith
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So I will not criticize you for not doing so. Your type of logic is that
of the group book thumper. You can not help yourself, and should not
feel bad about your brain. You were born with it, and it will never be
able to grasp why others (with different brains) don't give a [censored]
about majority opinion. We think for our selves.
To recap, I (as I encourage those of like mind to try) typed into
"google news search", " Bicyclist struck by car ". Those who care to
think for themselves will read this search result and come up with a
brain result. Others will count opinions, or quote old books, in a
primitive attempt to simulate independent thought. But you need the
type of brain capable of doing this Mr. Smith.
And so I, as well as others can only note that you have made a roll
call, and not an effectual comment on the data we all have at our
monitors. You are stupid Mr. Smith, and I am so sorry, but nothing can
be done. You must always be that way. It is fate.

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Maybe some of y'all should start a "How to road-ride safely" thread,
which is obviously a good thread topic.

This here thread, however, is about people's preferences for "RED
BLINKY LIGHTS", like the one I just bought:
[image:
http://www.performancebike.com/product_images/250/40-1731-NCL-ANGLE.jpg]

--
steveyo

steveyo
...like having your own personal rollercoaster...

- a few 'uni race write-ups'
(http://home.nycap.rr.com/rduhan/uni_race_writeups/)
- muni and kokopelli uni 't-shirts, mugs and stickers'
(http://www.cafepress.com/steveyo)
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feel the light said:

You are stupid Mr. Smith, and I am so sorry, but nothing can
be done. You must always be that way. It is fate.

Ah, ad-hominem abuse. That, of course, absolutely proves that you
must be right. Your opinion must be right, because you don't attempt
to defend it at all and instead make (unsubstantiated, spurious)
assertions about the intelligence of anyone that criticises your
argument.

Glad we've cleared that up. I'm surprised I've got teh brain power to
remeber to breathe.

kindest regards, Ian SMith
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|/ \|

Country and less travelled roads, I ride on the left. I see traffic far
ahead of me, traffic behind me, I do not need to worry about. Car
coming at me, I see it and have about 1min to get out of the way, so I
cross over to the right side. Simple, no harm done, no cars in the way,
I am not in the way.

City and busy roads, I am on the street. Scares the [censored] out of me some
times, but I stay relaxed and alert. I am being safe, the drivers don't
see it that way. They rev behind me, but do not pass, even when I am
within inches of the sidewalk. They have swerved at me, honked, yelled,
thrown things, and curse at me. I know its the right thing for me to be
with the traffic, but they do not make it feel that way. Sometimes the
drivers give me a tad more space, and do not rev at me, and that is
fine, but there are some roads, I don't even chance it anymore. I am up
on the sidewalk, or pull off and take a side road.

If its around midnight - 5am, I am everywhere on the road. Its late,
there are no cars out, and I am having a nice night ride where I don't
have to care. The very few cars that happen to come by, I see their
lights and hear them while they are many blocks away. I have plenty of
time to give way to them.

During my night rides, I still use a red blinky. I dont know what kind
it is, but it came on my Coker when I bought it, and I switch it out
form the Coker, to my bikes. Clips usually to my camel back, and it has
a few blinking settings, but I usually leave it on a solid bright red.

--
Jerrick

~*~!I ride for Christ, Fun, Challenges, and a lot
more!~*~
'!Gallery!' (http://tinyurl.com/gf2g9)
'!MRIS!' (http://tinyurl.com/jjjnz)
'Easy Tire Removal Guide.' (http://tinyurl.com/rd9ru)
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feel the light said:

I have been riding motorcycles for 33 years, with no crashes.

And I'm sure that's because you ride them on the wrong side of the
road, right?

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