Mountain Bikes · Public discussion

Re: Updated Mountain Biking FAQ

Started by Just zis Guy, you know? · · Last activity · 4 posts · 447 views

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Mountain Bikes
Published
7 May 2005
Last activity
10 May 2005
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Just zis Guy, you know?
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  1. Frequently Asked Questions about Mike Vandeman

    1. Why does Vandeman hate mountain bikers?
    a. He is passionately committed to the wilderness, which is damaged by
    all forms of human activity. One of these forms is recreational
    access. But Mike likes to hike, so feels torn.
    b. While hiking he sees mountain bikers out enjoying themselves.
    Since he feels wracked with guilt, their evident pleasure in their
    chosen activity causes him to hate them. Thus he chooses to project
    his guilt onto this group.
    c. He is bolstered in his vendetta by the fact that he has been able
    to find some data which suggest that some specific types of damage
    mountain biking causes are worse than the same types of damage caused
    by hiking. He has not looked for equivalent data for other
    activities, or an overall assessment of the damage any human activity
    causes, so unlike the major wilderness conservation bodies he
    concludes that mountain biking is uniquely threatening to wilderness.
    d. Having taken it upon himself to stop mountain biking, a popular
    activity, he took the course of spamming and trolling mountain bike
    newsgroups. This had the predictable result of making him very
    unpopular with mountain bikers, some of whom emailed him to let him
    know.
    e. Being already disposed to dislike mountain bikers because of his
    own feelings of guilt, Vandeman blew these messages out of all
    proportion and is now convinced that all mail disputing his world view
    is hate mail, and that hate mail in response to sustained trolling is
    the unique preserve of mountain bikers. He is not prepared to
    consider that this may be a universal response to aggressive and
    sustained trolling.
    f. He will say that he doesn't hate mountain bikers, only mountain
    biking. Take away the bikes and he's quite happy. Hating an
    inanimate object? How sterile is that? Quite how mountain bikers can
    be separated from mountain bikes, the definition of the former being
    those who ride the latter, is left as an exercise for the reader.
    g. To bolster his preconceptions he has written some "studies", such
    as a literature review documenting the impact of mountain biking.
    Since this has no inclusion criteria by which to judge the
    completeness or bias of the selected papers, it is of course
    worthless. But that's not going to stop him posting it.

    2. What is driving Vandeman's trolling?
    Bigotry. He has never demonstrated that the activity he chooses to
    single out is any more damaging than many comparable activities. He
    portrays himself as a world expert on the damage caused by mountain
    biking, in the same way that Don Black is a world expert on the Jewish
    conspiracy in America. He has decided to hate mountain biking because
    it's safer than hating himself.

    3. What harm does Mike Vandeman do?
    a. Most obvious is the damage he does to the cause of
    environmentalists. By pissing off a group who are users of the great
    outdoors, use zero-emission vehicles and would normally be
    well-disposed towards environmental concerns, Mike makes
    environmentalism and concern over wilderness threats look like the
    preserve of zealots.
    b. A poster must also be very careful not to fall into Mike's traps:
    any exaggeration will be called a LIE, any attempt to discuss damage
    caused by other activities is "irrelevant" (unless Vandeman initiates
    it), poking fun at Mike is "abuse" and "hate mail", especially if it
    is responding in kind to one of his more aggressive posts. Mike is
    very adept at bringing out the worst in people and then holding this
    up as an example of how terrible mountain bikers are. It is futile to
    point out that any group subjected to relentless trolling will react
    in the same way; Mike is not interested.
    c. It causes mountain bikers to believe that any damage they might
    cause is only in the mind of a lone bigot. This is untrue: every user
    of the wilderness has an obligation to take care and minimise their
    impact.
    d. It raises the false perception that all mountain biking is done in
    wilderness. This is, of course, [censored]. Mountain bike courses can be
    set up anywhere, including the buffer zones on the edges of wilderness
    areas, in managed forestry plantations, in urban parkland, all sorts.
    Probably most of the mountain bikers in the USA never go into any
    wilderness worthy of the name.

    4. Vandeman says mountain bikers claim that their sport has no greater
    environmental impact than hiking. Is that true?
    No, this argument is largely an invention of his own. Hikers
    typically don't travel far in a day, but as a result they are more
    likely to camp in the wilderness (which brings fire risk, a specific
    threat identified by several agencies) - the overall impact is
    different, and not directly comparable. The truth is that all human
    activity impinges on the wilderness, but that recreational activity is
    generally much less of a threat than commercial exploitation and
    species introduction.

    Although mountain bikers have an obligation, as everyone does, to
    "tread lightly", the major wilderness agencies do not identify
    mountain biking as a particular threat over and above hiking.

    5. Where should Mike Vandeman be allowed?
    al.troll would be a good place, or his own little group,
    alt.vandeman.so.far.up.his.own.[censored].he.has.not.seen.daylight.for.years.
    Locally, you can find a great home for him using your newsreader's
    killfile. Alternatively, play along, but don't expect better than to
    argue him into the ground - he never concedes defeat, never admits he
    is wrong and never apologises. The more in the wrong he is, the more
    this holds.

    6. What should the policy be on trolls?
    Normally? Killfile and ignore. But some people like to play with
    Vandeman because, with care, he can be made to reveal the shallowness
    of his position.

    7. Isn't it discriminatory to troll mountain biking groups and not
    hiking or equestrian ones?
    Hell yes. Vandeman makes some pathetic justifications, like bikes not
    being natural, or only the bikes being banned - of course this is the
    equivalent of allowing hiking but banning hiking boots. Can you
    mountain bike without a bike? It's kind of hard. What does Mike
    care? He's a bigot.

    8. Don't I have a right to troll-free public newsgroups?
    Apparently not. Vandeman's posts are notionally on-topic, even though
    many of them are gross misrepresentations such as proclaiming death
    threats where none exist (all so-called "abusive" emails are posted
    with full headers for extra effect). Complaints to his ISP come to
    nothing. If you don't want to hear his [censored], the killfile is your
    friend.

    9. Doesn't Vandeman do some good things, like advocating wilderness
    protection?
    He says he does, but you begin to wonder. He was chucked out of the
    Sierra Club for giving environmentalists a bad name, so you begin to
    wonder if maybe he's an agent provocateur placed by some oil and gas
    exploration company somewhere. His style is so antagonistic that it
    rarely prompts rational debate and any it does prompt will be ignored
    by a lot of knowledgeable posters simply because he is involved in the
    thread and they have better things to do with their time than argue
    with trolls.

    10. But don't all wilderness users provide added safety for the
    wilderness by advocating its protection?
    Of course, but you'd never believe it from Vandeman's postings.
    According to him mountain bikers are destructive and nothing else.
    Vandeman would rather people drove into the heart of the wilderness
    along blacktop in their cars and hiked, like he does.

    11. Can't any physical activity help get our overweight kids off the
    couch?
    Absolutely. But Vandeman doesn't like mountain biking (he's a bigot,
    see). So, you can hike or ride a horse or kayak or camp in the
    wilderness or drive your offroad motor vehicle or chain-drag the
    undergrowth for your livestock or drill an oil well or cut down trees
    for profit and he'll say nothing to you. Get on your bike and you're
    the enemy. The protester on his mountain bike is Vandeman's enemy,
    the bulldozers against which he protests are of no concern to Mike.
    Take a chainsaw to a fallen tree to make a jump? Criminal!
    Commercial logging? Move along there, nothing to see, nothing to
    see...

    12. Doesn't Vandeman fight auto dependence?
    He says so, but he works so hard to discredit mountain biking, without
    saying a word about offroad motor vehicle use, that you have to
    wonder. Thus far his 8-year fight against auto dependence seems to
    have borne very little fruit - and if he pursued it the way he pursues
    his campaign against mountain biking, that's hardly a surprise.

    Vandeman is working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
    sense ("pure [censored]"😉. Want to help? (He spent the previous 8
    years fighting auto dependence and road construction equally
    ineffectually.)

    Guy
    --
    May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
    http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

    85% of helmet statistics are made up, 69% of them at CHS, Puget Sound

  2. On Sat, 07 May 2005 20:58:52 +0100, "Just zis Guy, you know?" <[email hidden]>
    wrote

    BS only a mountain biker could believe:

    ..Frequently Asked Questions about Mike Vandeman
    ..
    ..1. Why does Vandeman hate mountain bikers?
    ..a. He is passionately committed to the wilderness, which is damaged by
    ..all forms of human activity. One of these forms is recreational
    ..access. But Mike likes to hike, so feels torn.
    ..b. While hiking he sees mountain bikers out enjoying themselves.
    ..Since he feels wracked with guilt, their evident pleasure in their
    ..chosen activity causes him to hate them. Thus he chooses to project
    ..his guilt onto this group.
    ..c. He is bolstered in his vendetta by the fact that he has been able
    ..to find some data which suggest that some specific types of damage
    ..mountain biking causes are worse than the same types of damage caused
    ..by hiking. He has not looked for equivalent data for other
    ..activities, or an overall assessment of the damage any human activity
    ..causes, so unlike the major wilderness conservation bodies he
    ..concludes that mountain biking is uniquely threatening to wilderness.
    ..d. Having taken it upon himself to stop mountain biking, a popular
    ..activity, he took the course of spamming and trolling mountain bike
    ..newsgroups. This had the predictable result of making him very
    ..unpopular with mountain bikers, some of whom emailed him to let him
    ..know.
    ..e. Being already disposed to dislike mountain bikers because of his
    ..own feelings of guilt, Vandeman blew these messages out of all
    ..proportion and is now convinced that all mail disputing his world view
    ..is hate mail, and that hate mail in response to sustained trolling is
    ..the unique preserve of mountain bikers. He is not prepared to
    ..consider that this may be a universal response to aggressive and
    ..sustained trolling.
    ..f. He will say that he doesn't hate mountain bikers, only mountain
    ..biking. Take away the bikes and he's quite happy. Hating an
    ..inanimate object? How sterile is that? Quite how mountain bikers can
    ..be separated from mountain bikes, the definition of the former being
    ..those who ride the latter, is left as an exercise for the reader.
    ..g. To bolster his preconceptions he has written some "studies", such
    ..as a literature review documenting the impact of mountain biking.
    ..Since this has no inclusion criteria by which to judge the
    ..completeness or bias of the selected papers, it is of course
    ..worthless. But that's not going to stop him posting it.
    ..
    ..2. What is driving Vandeman's trolling?
    ..Bigotry. He has never demonstrated that the activity he chooses to
    ..single out is any more damaging than many comparable activities. He
    ..portrays himself as a world expert on the damage caused by mountain
    ..biking, in the same way that Don Black is a world expert on the Jewish
    ..conspiracy in America. He has decided to hate mountain biking because
    ..it's safer than hating himself.
    ..
    ..3. What harm does Mike Vandeman do?
    ..a. Most obvious is the damage he does to the cause of
    ..environmentalists. By pissing off a group who are users of the great
    ..outdoors, use zero-emission vehicles and would normally be
    ..well-disposed towards environmental concerns, Mike makes
    ..environmentalism and concern over wilderness threats look like the
    ..preserve of zealots.
    ..b. A poster must also be very careful not to fall into Mike's traps:
    ..any exaggeration will be called a LIE, any attempt to discuss damage
    ..caused by other activities is "irrelevant" (unless Vandeman initiates
    ..it), poking fun at Mike is "abuse" and "hate mail", especially if it
    ..is responding in kind to one of his more aggressive posts. Mike is
    ..very adept at bringing out the worst in people and then holding this
    ..up as an example of how terrible mountain bikers are. It is futile to
    ..point out that any group subjected to relentless trolling will react
    ..in the same way; Mike is not interested.
    ..c. It causes mountain bikers to believe that any damage they might
    ..cause is only in the mind of a lone bigot. This is untrue: every user
    ..of the wilderness has an obligation to take care and minimise their
    ..impact.
    ..d. It raises the false perception that all mountain biking is done in
    ..wilderness. This is, of course, [censored]. Mountain bike courses can be
    ..set up anywhere, including the buffer zones on the edges of wilderness
    ..areas, in managed forestry plantations, in urban parkland, all sorts.
    ..Probably most of the mountain bikers in the USA never go into any
    ..wilderness worthy of the name.
    ..
    ..4. Vandeman says mountain bikers claim that their sport has no greater
    ..environmental impact than hiking. Is that true?
    ..No, this argument is largely an invention of his own. Hikers
    ..typically don't travel far in a day, but as a result they are more
    ..likely to camp in the wilderness (which brings fire risk, a specific
    ..threat identified by several agencies) - the overall impact is
    ..different, and not directly comparable. The truth is that all human
    ..activity impinges on the wilderness, but that recreational activity is
    ..generally much less of a threat than commercial exploitation and
    ..species introduction.
    ..
    ..Although mountain bikers have an obligation, as everyone does, to
    .."tread lightly", the major wilderness agencies do not identify
    ..mountain biking as a particular threat over and above hiking.
    ..
    ..5. Where should Mike Vandeman be allowed?
    ..al.troll would be a good place, or his own little group,
    ..alt.vandeman.so.far.up.his.own.[censored].he.has.not.seen.daylight.for.years.
    ..Locally, you can find a great home for him using your newsreader's
    ..killfile. Alternatively, play along, but don't expect better than to
    ..argue him into the ground - he never concedes defeat, never admits he
    ..is wrong and never apologises. The more in the wrong he is, the more
    ..this holds.
    ..
    ..6. What should the policy be on trolls?
    ..Normally? Killfile and ignore. But some people like to play with
    ..Vandeman because, with care, he can be made to reveal the shallowness
    ..of his position.
    ..
    ..7. Isn't it discriminatory to troll mountain biking groups and not
    ..hiking or equestrian ones?
    ..Hell yes. Vandeman makes some pathetic justifications, like bikes not
    ..being natural, or only the bikes being banned - of course this is the
    ..equivalent of allowing hiking but banning hiking boots. Can you
    ..mountain bike without a bike? It's kind of hard. What does Mike
    ..care? He's a bigot.
    ..
    ..8. Don't I have a right to troll-free public newsgroups?
    ..Apparently not. Vandeman's posts are notionally on-topic, even though
    ..many of them are gross misrepresentations such as proclaiming death
    ..threats where none exist (all so-called "abusive" emails are posted
    ..with full headers for extra effect). Complaints to his ISP come to
    ..nothing. If you don't want to hear his [censored], the killfile is your
    ..friend.
    ..
    ..9. Doesn't Vandeman do some good things, like advocating wilderness
    ..protection?
    ..He says he does, but you begin to wonder. He was chucked out of the
    ..Sierra Club for giving environmentalists a bad name, so you begin to
    ..wonder if maybe he's an agent provocateur placed by some oil and gas
    ..exploration company somewhere. His style is so antagonistic that it
    ..rarely prompts rational debate and any it does prompt will be ignored
    ..by a lot of knowledgeable posters simply because he is involved in the
    ..thread and they have better things to do with their time than argue
    ..with trolls.
    ..
    ..10. But don't all wilderness users provide added safety for the
    ..wilderness by advocating its protection?
    ..Of course, but you'd never believe it from Vandeman's postings.
    ..According to him mountain bikers are destructive and nothing else.
    ..Vandeman would rather people drove into the heart of the wilderness
    ..along blacktop in their cars and hiked, like he does.
    ..
    ..11. Can't any physical activity help get our overweight kids off the
    ..couch?
    ..Absolutely. But Vandeman doesn't like mountain biking (he's a bigot,
    ..see). So, you can hike or ride a horse or kayak or camp in the
    ..wilderness or drive your offroad motor vehicle or chain-drag the
    ..undergrowth for your livestock or drill an oil well or cut down trees
    ..for profit and he'll say nothing to you. Get on your bike and you're
    ..the enemy. The protester on his mountain bike is Vandeman's enemy,
    ..the bulldozers against which he protests are of no concern to Mike.
    ..Take a chainsaw to a fallen tree to make a jump? Criminal!
    ..Commercial logging? Move along there, nothing to see, nothing to
    ..see...
    ..
    ..12. Doesn't Vandeman fight auto dependence?
    ..He says so, but he works so hard to discredit mountain biking, without
    ..saying a word about offroad motor vehicle use, that you have to
    ..wonder. Thus far his 8-year fight against auto dependence seems to
    ..have borne very little fruit - and if he pursued it the way he pursues
    ..his campaign against mountain biking, that's hardly a surprise.
    ..
    ..
    ..
    ..Vandeman is working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
    ..sense ("pure [censored]"😉. Want to help? (He spent the previous 8
    ..years fighting auto dependence and road construction equally
    ..ineffectually.)
    ..
    ..Guy

    ===
    I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
    humans ("pure habitat"😉. Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
    years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

    http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

  3. On Sat, 07 May 2005 23:48:13 GMT, Mike Vandeman <[email hidden]>

    wrote in message : said:

    BS only a mountain biker could believe:

    Except that I'm not one. So that's yet another of your specious
    arguments shot down in flames.

    Guy
    --
    May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
    http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

    85% of helmet statistics are made up, 69% of them at CHS, Puget Sound

  4. Just zis Guy said:

    Frequently Asked Questions about Mike Vandeman


    fantastic post!

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