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Re: One law for us and another for them

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  1. Quoted message said:

    Aren't concentration camps a British invention?

    I don't think so, and this is why:

    "Causes of the War

    Demands by Cuban patriots for independence from Spanish rule made
    U.S. intervention in Cuba a paramount issue in the relations between
    the United States and Spain from the 1870s to 1898. Sympathy for the
    Cuban insurgents ran high in America, especially after the savage
    Ten Years War (1868-78) and the unsuccessful revolt of 1895. After
    efforts to quell guerrilla activity had failed, the Spanish military
    commander, Valeriano Weyler y Nicolau, instituted the reconcentrado,
    or concentration camp, system in 1896; Cuba's rural population was
    forcibly confined to centrally located garrison towns, where thousands
    died from disease, starvation, and exposure."

    http://www.bartleby.com/65/sp/SpanAmWar.html
    http://www.infoplease.com/ce6/history/A0846162.html
    Etc.

    1896 is four years before Kitchener's use of camps in South
    Africa during the Second Anglo Boer War.

    Here's a description of the Spanish camps taken from a Speech
    by a US Senator, reproduced in Clara Barton's THE RED CROSS.
    http://www.amigospais-guaracabuya.org/oagld003.php

    "Every town and village is surrounded by a trocha (trench) a sort of
    rifle
    pit, but constructed on a plan new to me, the
    dirt being thrown up on the inside and a barbed wire fence
    on the outer side of the trench."

    Feature No. 1: barbed wire fence

    "These trochas have at every corner, and at frequent intervals along
    the
    sides, what are there called forts, but which are
    really small block-houses, many of them more like a large sentry box,
    loop-holed for musketry, and with a guard of from two to ten
    soldiers in each. The purpose of these trochas is to keep
    reconcentrados in as well as to keep the insurgents out. "

    Feature No. 5: guard towers

    "From all the surrounding country the people have been driven into
    these
    fortified towns and held there to subsist as they can."

    Feature No. 3: neglect of civilians collected from rural areas

    "They are virtually prison yards and not unlike one in general
    appearance,
    except that the walls are not so-high and strong,
    but they suffice, where every point is in range of a soldier's
    rifle, to keep in the poor reconcentrado women and children."

    Feature No. 4: sentries

    "Every man, woman and child and every domestic animal, wherever their
    columns have reached, is under guard and within their so-
    called fortifications. To describe one place is to describe all. To
    repeat, it is neither peace nor war."

    Feature No. 6: imprisonment of civilians

    "It is concentration and desolation. This is the "pacified" condition
    of
    the four western provinces."

    "All the country people in the four western provinces, about 400,000
    (at
    least 50% or 200,000 see below would die of star-
    vation and disease L.D)"

    Feature No. 2: massive mortality due to starvation and/or disease.

    Feature No. 7: centralisation around rail junctions to facilitate
    collection.

    The idea that the British invented concentration camps comes from
    Dr. Goebbels:

    Robertson, Patrick. "The Book of Firsts," Clarkson N. Potter,
    Inc., New York, 1974, p. 44.

    "The idea that the British 'invented' concentration camps was fostered
    by
    Dr. Goebbels during the 1930s. In 1938 Nazi propaganda picture
    postcards,
    formerly sold as 'genuine Russian concentration camp scenes', were
    relabelled for issue as 'genuine British concentration camp scenes in
    South Africa'."

    This was to embarrass British critics of the Nazi concentration camps
    into silence. [censored] went one better, claiming the Nazi camps were
    based the British Boer War camps: this is also a lie. The Nazi
    concentration camps were based on German colonial camps used to
    exterminate the Herreros in South West Africa. The latter camps
    were called 'konzentrationslagers', were justified by a racist
    ideology that would not be out of place in Voelkischer Beobachter,
    and were overseen by Herman Goering's dad.

    Unfortunately two British journalists decided to translate the
    Spanish name for these camps into English, so we typically
    hear that the Second Ango-Boer was the first time the term
    "concentration camp" was used in the English language, as if
    that was the first time concentration camps were ever used.
    The Spanish camps killed of ca. 200,000 people - four times as
    many as died in the Boer War camps - yet the former are almost
    unknown despite the massive publicity given them at the time.

    I think it is worth remembering there is a world of difference between
    a
    British concentration camp and a Nazi concentration camp. British
    people are kind and generous.

    THE GREAT ANGLO-BOER WAR by Byron Farwell
    ISBN 0-393-30659-3

    This is a Brit concentration camp (1900)

    "They lived in a way that used to make the brutal soldier's mouth water

    when he came into town after trekking. Our food in the Mounted
    Infantry was generally good enough, but we never had shelter.... These

    persecuted people, however, were living in cool, roomy marquees and
    were paid for
    doing things for themselves. Thus if they wanted an oven to bake their

    bread in the men made one and got paid for it."

    Standing Orders to the superintendents of the Transvaal camps-

    "There must be no stinting in the distribution of medical comforts
    to the sick and convalscent, old and infirm people and young children.
    When necessary, stimulants may be freely given under doctor's orders.
    There must be an adequate supply of milk, which should be liberally
    applied to children and deserving people, as well as the sick and
    convalescent."

    ibid, page 407.

    "Medical stimulants supplied at Bloemfontein camps in Oct 1901

    Champagne 32 bottles
    Brandy 171 bottles
    Port wine 73 bottles

    Claret 29 bottles
    Stout 19 bottles
    Whiskey 19 bottles

    "In spite of all the champagne, brandy, whiskey, and tinned milk,
    the children continued to die. Typhoid killed one in five inmates who
    came down with it; pneumonia one in three. Between 1st Sept 1901
    and the end of the year, one person out of every ten died."

    "the Boers in the camps were certainly given enough to eat. The
    problem was that their diet was deficient in essential vitamins. This
    was an age that knew little about community resistance to disease,
    still
    less about nutrition and virtually nothing about vitamins."

    "The rations issued were those served out to regular soldiers in
    garrison, but what the uncomplaining Tommies meekly accepted the Boer
    civilians complained of bitterly--with good reason. Ater the war
    Kitchener
    said, "I consider that the soldier was better fed than in any previous
    campaign" but civilian politicians had not realised how bad the food
    was
    they served to soldiers. For the first time it occurred to those in
    authority that the rations of the British army were excreable.

    "People in institutions, particularly when they have little to do,
    always complain about the food, even when it is good. In the
    concentration
    camps the food was neither good nor plentiful, and certainly did not
    make
    for a balanced diet[2]. Still, no-one died from starvation. The
    amount
    of food issued varied from camp to camp; in the Transvaal and in Natal
    the meat ration was usually four pounds per adult per week; in the
    Orange
    Free State it was three and a half pounds per week. When Milner took
    over
    the camps he ensured the diet was more varied"

    This is a Nazi camp.

    http://www.us-israel.org/jsour­ce/Holocaust/Ravensbruck.html
    "Beginning in 1942, medical experiments were performed on the inmates;
    some women were infected with gas gangrene or bacterial inflammations,

    while others were forced to receive bone transplants and bone ampu-
    tations. Other experiments involved sulfonamide and sterilization
    techniques. Pregnant Jewish women were sent to the gas chambers,
    while abortions were performed on non-Jews."

    "The Soviets liberated the camp on April 29-30, 1945, and found another

    3,500 female prisoners living at the camp. It is estimated that 50,000

    women died at Ravensbrueck, either from harsh living conditions, slave

    labor or were put to death."

    http://www.jewishgen.org/Forgo­ttenCamps/Camps/RavensbruckEng­.html
    "Hundreds of children were incarcerated in Ravensbrueck. The cruelty
    and
    the sadism of the Nazis against the children had no limits, and the
    fate of those little victims was absolutely awful. Children and babies

    were in fact sentenced to death before they were born. Newborn babies
    were immediately separated from their mother and drowned or thrown
    into
    a sealed room until they died. Most of the time, this was done in
    front
    of the mother. There are dozen of testimonies about children thrown
    alive into the crematory, buried alive, poisoned, strangled, or
    drowned
    in Ravensbrueck. Several children were also used for sadistic
    "medical"
    experiments. Hundreds of little girls, sometimes only 8, were
    sterilized
    by direct exposure of genitals to X-rays. In the early months of
    Ravensbrueck, children were immediately killed. The SS doctor
    Rosenthal
    and his girlfriend Gerda Quernheim aborted by force pregnant women,
    and this was often done using bestial methods. Later, newborn children

    were sometimes allowed to survive, but due to the lack of food and the

    awful sanitary conditions, these babies died very soon."

    "Only the strongest children could survive. Those children had to work
    day and night with the women in the workshop and help them with the
    heaviest labor. Only very few of these children survived the war. "

  2. in message <[email hidden]>,
    [email hidden] ([email hidden]'😉

    Quoted message said:

    I think it is worth remembering there is a world of difference between
    a British concentration camp and a Nazi concentration camp. British
    people are kind and generous.

    You can overdo that, you know. The people in the German camps died as a
    result of policy and design, whereas those in the British camps died of
    incompetence and neglect. But they were just as dead.

    Quoted message said:

    THE GREAT ANGLO-BOER WAR by Byron Farwell
    ISBN 0-393-30659-3

    This is a Brit concentration camp (1900)

    "They lived in a way that used to make the brutal soldier's mouth water
    when he came into town after trekking. Our food in the Mounted
    Infantry was generally good enough, but we never had shelter.... These
    persecuted people, however, were living in cool, roomy marquees and
    were paid for doing things for themselves. Thus if they wanted an oven
    to bake their bread in the men made one and got paid for it."

    Every side in every war publishes propaganda. It's a capital mistake to
    believe the propaganda published by one's own side. An awful lot of
    these 'well cared for' people died of starvation and cholera. As a
    matter of historical fact, roughly one in four of the people who went
    into the camps died there. And (although I doubt it was ever official
    policy) it seems from the evidence that deliberately contaminated and
    poisoned food was supplied to the camps by (some of) the British.

    --
    [email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

    'graveyards are full of indispensable people'

  3. Simon Brooke said:

    in message <[email hidden]>,
    [email hidden] ([email hidden]'😉

    Quoted message said:

    I think it is worth remembering there is a world of difference between
    a British concentration camp and a Nazi concentration camp. British
    people are kind and generous.

    You can overdo that, you know.

    I don't think so. The world thinks of us as callous brutes, and
    Britons are, generally speaking, only to willing to accept this
    assesment.

    Quoted message said:

    The people in the German camps died as a
    result of policy and design, whereas those in the British camps died of
    incompetence and neglect. But they were just as dead.

    Sure, murder vs. manslaughter.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    THE GREAT ANGLO-BOER WAR by Byron Farwell
    ISBN 0-393-30659-3

    This is a Brit concentration camp (1900)

    "They lived in a way that used to make the brutal soldier's mouth water
    when he came into town after trekking. Our food in the Mounted
    Infantry was generally good enough, but we never had shelter.... These
    persecuted people, however, were living in cool, roomy marquees and
    were paid for doing things for themselves. Thus if they wanted an oven
    to bake their bread in the men made one and got paid for it."

    Every side in every war publishes propaganda.

    That's not propaganda Simon; that's a book by a reputable American
    historian.

    Quoted message said:

    It's a capital mistake to
    believe the propaganda published by one's own side.

    Or that of the enemy.

    Quoted message said:

    An awful lot of
    these 'well cared for' people died of starvation and cholera.

    The Boer commandos stole food off their own women and children.

    page 383, THE GREAT ANGLO-BOER WAR, Byron Farwell

    "During our wanderings last night [16 May 1901] we stopped at a
    farmhouse to make some enquiry, but recieved scant courtesy from the
    woman in command. She approached, followed by a long diminishing
    file of children, the whole looking like a monstrous sea serpent,
    herself in the van forming the formidable head. With tearful fury
    she denounced us as thieves, drunkards, and cowards, who having
    left our manhood behind us in the big cities and other idolatrous
    centres, had come here to rob and ruin helpless Christian women and
    children, and to be instrumental in causing their homes to be
    burnt down, by drawing, through our uninvited presence, the enemy
    to their houses with fire and sword and, when he came, by fleeing
    and leaving the distracted household to face him. The painful
    part of the reproach was the coarse grains for truth embedded
    therein. We admitted defeat and moved on."

    "At one farm, the housewife welcomed the men of the Johannesburg
    Commando warmly, but they stole her pigs and turkeys anyway, causing
    her to break into tears: "If only she had cursed us," said
    Schikkerling,
    "we could have stood it; but she merely wept; and this drew from me
    all I had to leave her--a tear of pity."

    ==

    The Boer commandoes cleverly raided the British
    concentration camps, stealing food from the women and children
    they accuse us of starving.

    "Young Commandant Willem Fouche, operating in Cape Colony,
    heard that administrators of the camp at Aliwal North
    were traitors from the Orange Free State. On July 17 1901
    he led an attack on the camp, killed two Bantu, and carried
    off four of the alleged traitors; he also tried there to
    drum up some recruits, but out of 689 men in the camp only
    five elected to follow him. On Sept 15 1901 the Belfast
    camp was raided, apparently only to get supplies, but
    the attack was repulsed; one woman and two children were
    wounded. In December about 800 Boers captured the
    Pietersburgh camp, and J. E. Tucker, the superintendent,
    and his staff were made prisoners. After a gay, all
    night party with wives, sweethearts, friends, and relations
    the burghers released their prisoners unharmed and rode off
    into the sunrise."

    ibid.

    If there was no food in the camps, why did the Boers raid them?

    Standing Orders to the superintendents of the Transvaal camps-

    "There must be no stinting in the distribution of medical comforts
    to the sick and convalscent, old and infirm people and young children.
    When necessary, stimulants may be freely given under doctor's orders.
    There must be an adequate supply of milk, which should be liberally
    applied to children and deserving people, as well as the sick and
    convalescent."

    ibid, page 407.

    "Medical stimulants supplied at Bloemfontein 1901

    Champagne 32 bottles
    Brandy 171 bottles
    Port wine 73 bottles

    Claret 29 bottles
    Stout 19 bottles
    Whiskey 19 bottles

    ==

    "Women threw large portions, which had been newly served out, of
    good though thin meat, into the wide roadway of the camp. It
    would have made very good broth or stew."

    ==

    If the Boer women and their children were starving
    why did they throw food on the ground in rebellion?

    Quoted message said:

    As a
    matter of historical fact, roughly one in four of the people who went
    into the camps died there. And (although I doubt it was ever official
    policy) it seems from the evidence that deliberately contaminated and
    poisoned food was supplied to the camps by (some of) the British.

    Now that does sound like propaganda!

    Best regards,
    Max

    Quoted message said:

    --
    [email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

    'graveyards are full of indispensable people'

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