General fitness, health and nutrition · Public discussion

Re: just for fun: the Hadd test

Started by Sam · · Last activity · 4 posts · 439 views

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General fitness, health and nutrition
Published
7 June 2005
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11 June 2005
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Sam
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  1. Original post
    Sam
    Archived post
    #1

    "steve common" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Tony' qtrader2@(remove)hotmail.com said:

    There are other studies that question the repeatability
    of direct lactate measuring also,

    This is no surprise really. Pricking ears to get an estimation of leg
    muscle
    lactate concentrations seems doomed to wild inaccuracy.

    Since one is measuring BLOOD lactate levels, where one takes the blood
    from really is not all that important. Even if you take blood from the leg,
    it is still only an estimate of what is going on in the muscle.
    I have taken blood from the ear (in swimmers usually) and from finger
    tips (cyclists, runners, rowers). It is far easier and less invasive than
    an in dwelling catheter. The latter has a reasonable function as well but
    is far more dangerous.

    Quoted message said:


    Quoted message said:

    which raise the question of whether AeT
    can be reliably measured using today's methods and technology.

    FWIW the local sports medical service measures lactates (using a fixed
    catheter, inserted under local anaesthetic) but bases their "threshold"
    value in the written report on the ventilatory threshold (when volCO2 out
    balances volO2 in IIRC, though I'm not sure)


    This is strange. Why measure lactate if you are not going to use it?

    Quoted message said:


    PS Is anyone subscribed to this thing?
    http://www.ms-se.com/

    if so, is it worth it?

    I subscribed when I was a member of ACSM. It is pretty good although you
    might not find an article in every journal that is interesting. Depending
    on the cost of the two as a non-member, you might rather subscribe to Sports
    Medicine. The review articles are top notch.

    Not sure either is worth more than the $250 that Sports Medicine costs.

    It would be far cheaper just to go to the website, check the abstracts to
    see what is of interest then go to the local college library and get that
    article or have it sent via interlibrary loan for copying charges.

    Report
  2. steve common
    Archived post
    #2
    Sam said:

    Since one is measuring BLOOD lactate levels, where one takes the blood
    from really is not all that important.

    I thought that it was important, if any useful measure was to be had.
    Particularly as it's generally necessary to stop the exercise for sampling.
    ie the time taken to get the sample after halting exercise must be
    near-identical each time. Though I suppose that you can get useful relative
    data with practice.

    Quoted message said:

    Even if you take blood from the leg,
    it is still only an estimate of what is going on in the muscle.

    True.

    Quoted message said:

    This is strange. Why measure lactate if you are not going to use it?

    They did use it as an estimation/cross check (to see if max intensity was
    peripheral limited or by O2 uptake I think?), but by taking samples every
    couple of minutes (without resting, thanks to the catheter) you can't really
    pinpoint the upturn of the lactate concentration with less than a minutes'
    precision.

    By comparison, sampling rate (at least, as traced on the printout) of speed,
    gas volumes, ventilatory rate, HR and BPs was 15 secs.

    Report
  3. Sam
    Archived post
    #3

    "steve common" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Sam said:

    Since one is measuring BLOOD lactate levels, where one takes the
    blood
    from really is not all that important.

    I thought that it was important, if any useful measure was to be had.
    Particularly as it's generally necessary to stop the exercise for
    sampling.
    ie the time taken to get the sample after halting exercise must be
    near-identical each time. Though I suppose that you can get useful
    relative
    data with practice.

    I once timed myself. From the time the person stopped when using a
    treadmill protocol to the time blood was taken from the finger was a
    whopping 15 seconds. There is not going to be any change in 15 sec. The
    athlete then was right back on the TM once speed was increased. The total
    time out was 30 seconds. I guarantee you that this will not mess with the
    lactate measurements as long as one is using sufficiently long stages to
    allow for steady state to be reached (at least 3 minutes).
    In cycling, one does not need to stop to take the finger sample or ear
    sample.

    Quoted message said:


    Quoted message said:

    Even if you take blood from the leg,
    it is still only an estimate of what is going on in the muscle.

    True.

    Quoted message said:

    This is strange. Why measure lactate if you are not going to use it?

    They did use it as an estimation/cross check (to see if max intensity was
    peripheral limited or by O2 uptake I think?), but by taking samples every
    couple of minutes (without resting, thanks to the catheter) you can't
    really
    pinpoint the upturn of the lactate concentration with less than a minutes'
    precision.


    I would be curious about the protocol. I also think that trying to
    find the upturn to the minute is beyond the capabilities of a device.
    Lactates will rise in the first 2 minutes of a stage.

    That said, labs develop protocols based on what the lab manager/head
    physiologist believes is the best way to do it. I just have worked with
    some very good sport scientists who think differently in terms of protocols.
    In the end, most of the protocols and methods of selecting LT are all about
    the same in terms of predicting performance.

    Quoted message said:

    By comparison, sampling rate (at least, as traced on the printout) of
    speed,
    gas volumes, ventilatory rate, HR and BPs was 15 secs.

    How often was the speed changing?

    Report
  4. steve common
    Archived post
    #4
    Sam said:

    From the time the person stopped when using a
    treadmill protocol to the time blood was taken from the finger was a
    whopping 15 seconds. There is not going to be any change in 15 sec. The
    athlete then was right back on the TM once speed was increased. The total
    time out was 30 seconds.

    Point taken but it brings me another question; what is the use of short
    intervals in training, with 15 (or even 30) second jogged breaks if there is
    no modification in body parameters, except HR?

    I thought the point of the rests was precisely to allow non-limiting lactate
    levels to be maintained over a longer period despite the very high intensity
    during the fast portions.

    Or is it not the lactate level itself which is targeted?

    Report

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