Re: Drop bar replacements?

In article said:

in message <[email hidden]>, Clive

George (') said:

"DavidR" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I never expected an "ah, I never thought of that" - few ideas
are original - but it is disappointing that the respondants here (all
3 of them!, claiming to represent all cycledom) have been unable to do
more than
recite the stock responses.

Put me down as somebody who agrees with the 3, but can't be arsed with
the argument (followed it briefly a _long_ time ago, then gave up when
it became apparent it was going nowhere.

So that's at least 4...

Five.

Six. But there is something nice about cycling on a clear slightly frosty
day, isn't there.

On 30 Jan 2006 22:05:02 +0000 (GMT), [email hidden] (Alan

Braggins) said:

In article said:

in message <[email hidden]>, Clive

George (') said:

"DavidR" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

> I never expected an "ah, I never thought of that" - few ideas
> are original - but it is disappointing that the respondants here (all
> 3 of them!, claiming to represent all cycledom) have been unable to do
> more than
> recite the stock responses.

Put me down as somebody who agrees with the 3, but can't be arsed with
the argument (followed it briefly a _long_ time ago, then gave up when
it became apparent it was going nowhere.

So that's at least 4...

Five.

Six. But there is something nice about cycling on a clear slightly frosty
day, isn't there.

Seven. I wish I could get thermally insulated cleats to stop the cold
coming up through my feet.
--
mono<losethis>treme@ntl<andthis>world.com

Quoted message said:

Seven. I wish I could get thermally insulated cleats to stop the cold
coming up through my feet.

Thermal insoles in your shoes?

Mark Thompson said:

Quoted message said:

Seven. I wish I could get thermally insulated cleats to stop the cold
coming up through my feet.

Thermal insoles in your shoes?

But then my shoes are too tight and *I* am too tight to buy bigger
ones 🙂
Roll on nicer weather...
--
mono<losethis>treme@ntl<andthis>world.com

"Simon Brooke" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

Five.

I think that would be double counting!

Pete Connors said:

Mark Thompson said:

Quoted message said:

Seven. I wish I could get thermally insulated cleats to stop the cold
coming up through my feet.

Thermal insoles in your shoes?

But then my shoes are too tight and *I* am too tight to buy bigger ones 🙂

If you do find a solution I'd love to hear it 'cos I'm in the same
position as you. When it's 'orrible cold I put the old rat-traps+clips
back on, and use old shoes with no hole for cleats. It's OK upright, but
not for 'benting.

Mike

DavidR said:

Apart from shortening the grips, there is nothing special about it. It may
not suit you or anyone else. Fine. But it needn't stop me from criticising
the drop bar's ingrained "culture", for want of a better word, and the
apparent denial of a number of of specific deficiencies.

But you /still/ haven't accepted that what you find deficient others
find perfectly all right. You're the one in denial, because you refuse
to accept that people can find what you don't like to be somewhere
between acceptable and actively good.

Quoted message said:

He gave only three pieces of information:- the expected use, price
and "I don't like drops". Why didn't he add "I want mudguards & rack" for
instance? Lots of cyclists would never be seen dead with these yet nobody
ever feels the need to make excuses about them.

Actually, they do, and frequently. As you'd know if you didn't work
with single anecdotes that happen to, possibly, support what you're on
about. Your evidence set has never got above anecdotal, and is
consequently Really Not Very Good At All.

Quoted message said:

You certainly put your foot in it with your "stuck one position" -
whichever way that can be taken.

Despite my error, your bars have fewer continuously varying support
areas than standard drops, and since that is a very strong feature of
standard drops it is an area where they have potential for some hands to
be better than your bars. Judging by the lack of support you're
gathering, do you think it's just possible that for a lot of people drop
bars /might actually work well/? Of course you don't: you've already
decided otherwise and you're busy trying to squeeze a few anecdotes for
anything resembling evidence to support that, though you'd have a lot of
equally good or better anecdotes if you started with the opposite end point.

I repeat my previous suggestion: if these bars are really that good put
them into production and send us the sales figures to prove you're
right. If people can make a living selling recumbent bikes to people
without too much faith in the sacred cows of cycling comfort then a pair
of handlebars shouldn't be too hard by comparison.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

DavidR said:

I cannot imagine any rider goes down on the drop to relieve weight on their
hands!

And if you think that was the point that was being made, you missed it.
Although there may be more weight on the hands when on the drops,
pedalling harder can transfer some of this weight to the legs. Thus
there is less weight on the hands. ;-)

Quoted message said:

For some, a 10mph top speed can get a bit dizzy...

And for others it can be painfully slow. Given that riders are so
obviously different, can you yet understand why what works for you, may
not work for others. And thus why your continual disparaging commentry
on drop bars does nothing other than show you to be a) single-minded
and b) oblivious to the differing needs of different people.

Quoted message said:

I joined another ultra-leisure ride a few weeks ago. I got run into a
second time by someone with drop bar that was obviously nowhere near the
brake. This time he fell off. I would probably have done the same to the
person in front because I was prairie dogging on one hand at the time.

So despite your superior bar setup, you almost managed to achieve the
same daft result as a drop bar rider... let's see... can we learn
something here? ;-)

Quoted message said:

I know one person that has done that. All he has really done is put the
drop where most people would have the top. I don't know whether he went
shopping for a bike with drop bars and that change in mind or whether he
was badly advised and changing just the stem was a simpler solution than
changing bar, shifters & levers.

Then you don't know one person who has done "that" since "that" didn't
involve modifying the setup, it involved pedalling harder. Courtesy of
this NG you have a large list of people who have successfully used drop
bars and comfortably.

Quoted message said:

On my own I do a 14-15mph average for distance riding and my setups are
comfortable for this. I also have a utility setup optimised for 10-12mph.
The drop is fine as it - for the arms & body that is and there is little
point in chanbing it to a slower conguration. It is quite independant of
its failure to offer decent hand contact points.

Good for you. I have a three different handlebar configurations on my
bikes. The fixie has a similar setup to your "perfect" bars with a
cut-off straight bar and bars ends (although the bar ends are outboard
of the brakes). The Giant has a traditional drop bar configuration with
STIs. And the bent has USS. If I choose a bike for handlbar comfort...
the bent wins hands down. The fixie has flat bars partly for fashion
purposes (Courier chic an' all that) and partly because I tended to use
it around town and it only had one brake hood, thus removing my
"default" position. At some point I will invest in a bar end brake
lever and move the lever to the hood so that I can stop from my most
comfortable riding position, rather than having to move my hands to
brake.

Jon

DavidR said:

It doesn't matter if "lots of people like them" (and why shouldn't
they?).

Well, actually it does matter, because it demonstrates that what you
have set out to be a fundamental flaw in the bars isn't actually nearly
as fundamental as you've been saying.

Quoted message said:

Some people don't.

Nobody has ever suggested otherwise, just that they are not a
fundamentally poor design that only continues in use because it's a
"sacred cow".

Quoted message said:

dismisses a dislike as some inexplicable preference. I think there is a
comparatively simple mechanical explanation involved - some hand holds are
not hand shaped

Hands are very flexible and can be a lot of different shapes. People
can shape their hand around a tube. The salient point is that the upper
body of a person is not /that/ good at taking weight, and that taking
the weight over different setups can often be a better solution than
trying to optimise a single setup, which is what your attempt to create
a "hand shaped hold", whatever shape /that/ is, is forcing, at the
expense of a degree of variability in positioning.

Quoted message said:

I don't claim that "continuously varying support" is essential.

Well quite. You don't even see it as especially useful, where my whole
point is very much that it is because taking the weight a different way
is a good way to relieve stress points like elbows and wrists that live
downstream of the hands themselves and are places where discomfort can
occur irrespective of the shape of the bars if they're taking continual
loads they haven't evolved to do.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

DavidR said:

Quoted message said:

Even with perfectly hand shaped holds, the rider will experience
discomfort if too much weight goes on the hands.

I cannot imagine any rider goes down on the drop to relieve weight on
their hands!

I'm saying that changing the shape of the hand holds (with another
handlebar design) does not solve the problem, it only tinkers with it.
The hand hold could be absolutely perfectly hand shaped and you'd still
have chronic problems if too much weight is applied.

As for riders going down on the drops, they do that either because that's
what they find most comfortable (bar height being optimised for that) or
to get more speed/power, and if they are then pedaling harder as well then
extra weight isn't actually applied. Alternatively, those riders who only
occasionally use the drops and aren't particularly powerful, don't mind
being slightly more uncomfortable then for a brief while in return for the
increase in excitement.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The solution is to put
more weight through the backside and/or legs (adopt a more upright
position or pedal harder).

For some, a 10mph top speed can get a bit dizzy...

I joined another ultra-leisure ride a few weeks ago. I got run into a
second time by someone with drop bar that was obviously nowhere near
the brake. This time he fell off. I would probably have done the same
to the person in front because I was prairie dogging on one hand at
the time.

You're riding with idiots. It's perfectly possible to ride successfully
in a bunch with drops. Drop bars are not rubbish just because some people
can't use them!! The large majority of users I see manage them well.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Do that and you can have the freedom and
versatility of drop bars while feeling comfortable.

I know one person that has done that. All he has really done is put
the drop where most people would have the top.

Some people are very happy like that (it's a popular style with certain
Americans of a certain age, for example), although I'm not suggesting
going that far necessarily.

Quoted message said:

I don't know whether
he went shopping for a bike with drop bars and that change in mind or
whether he was badly advised and changing just the stem was a simpler
solution than changing bar, shifters & levers.

On my own I do a 14-15mph average for distance riding and my setups
are comfortable for this. I also have a utility setup optimised for
10-12mph. The drop is fine as it - for the arms & body that is and
there is little point in chanbing it to a slower conguration.

The point is to increase comfort and still have a lot of versatility and a
couple of /relatively/ fast positions.

Quoted message said:

It is
quite independant of its failure to offer decent hand contact points.

The reach or height or weight distribution is NOT fine for you if the hand
contact points feel bad. Many users do find them decent. They don't have
to be perfectly hand shaped to be decent (good even). Making them
perfectly hand shaped won't solve the root cause of the problem anyway.

You wouldn't necessarily have to change the position so much that your
average speed drops by more than 0.5 mph. Being more comfortable somewhat
makes up the aerodynamic loss.

Alternatively or also, you could put more weight through the pedals, if
you like. This does reduce weight on the hands. The difference in
pedaling performance and style is part of the reason why some people find
drops more comfortable than others.

~PB

in message <[email hidden]>, Pete Biggs

(') said:

Quoted message said:

I joined another ultra-leisure ride a few weeks ago. I got run into a
second time by someone with drop bar that was obviously nowhere near
the brake. This time he fell off. I would probably have done the same
to the person in front because I was prairie dogging on one hand at
the time.

You're riding with idiots. It's perfectly possible to ride
successfully in a bunch with drops.

One is forcibly reminded of that ancient saying about birds with similar
plumage.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

'Victories are not solutions.'
;; John Hume, Northern Irish politician, on Radio Scotland 1/2/95
;; Nobel Peace Prize laureate 1998; few have deserved it so much

"Jon is Away!" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

DavidR wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

For some, a 10mph top speed can get a bit dizzy...

And for others it can be painfully slow.

Well, I never...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I joined another ultra-leisure ride a few weeks ago. I got run into a
second time by someone with drop bar that was obviously nowhere near the
brake. This time he fell off. I would probably have done the same to the
person in front because I was prairie dogging on one hand at the time.

So despite your superior bar setup, you almost managed to achieve the
same daft result as a drop bar rider... let's see... can we learn
something here? ;-)

Err, that I didn't do what a drop bar rider did?

"Pete Biggs" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

DavidR said:

I joined another ultra-leisure ride a few weeks ago. I got run into a
second time by someone with drop bar that was obviously nowhere near
the brake. This time he fell off. I would probably have done the same
to the person in front because I was prairie dogging on one hand at
the time.

You're riding with idiots. It's perfectly possible to ride successfully
in a bunch with drops. Drop bars are not rubbish just because some
people
can't use them!! The large majority of users I see manage them well.

Then you don't see what I have been trying to get at. They are unsuitable
for some people. But they're absolutely perfect and totally beyond
criticism - apparently.

Oh well.

DavidR said:

Well, I never...

We realised that a while ago. ;-)

Quoted message said:

Err, that I didn't do what a drop bar rider did?

And how many other drop bar riders around him did the same? I would
presume none otherwise you would be desperately parading them.

When is it going to make it through your apparently rather dense skull,
that while _you_ may not like drop bars, a great many people do. And
that for every "Drop bars made someone fall off their bike" anecdote
we[1] can provide a great many examples of circumstances where they
didn't.

Flat bars can be used to promote a more leisurely riding position, as
demonstrated by the traditional "shopper" bikes, but in turn, the
curved bars that are a part of the average roadster are generally
deemed superior. But they are not the same thing. For a rider who
desires an upright, more leisurely riding posture, your solution _may_
be more appropriate. But (and here's the clincher), you have had it
explained to you time and again that lots of people prefer their drop
bars for various reasons (All of which have been cited again and
again).

But this is where it is really silly, because your solution is a
compromise. For a truely relaxed cycling posture (Ignoring for a minute
the obvious advantage of the 'bent), you want the rest of the bike
geometry to match. Fitting drop bars to a dutch roadster is never going
to be as effective as fitting them to a bike who's geometry was
designed to promote a fast riding position and vice versa.

You appear to be happy with your solution. Bully for you! I am
(reasonably - I currently lust after a TT style brake for the fixer)
happy with the set up of all three of my bikes. As many people here
have explained to you in the past, they are happy with their drop bar
setups.

So please, please, please, drop the evangelical "Drops are the work of
the Devil, you must all convert to my Third Way" attitude.

Jon

[1] I speak from experience, not on behalf of this NG.

DavidR said:

Then you don't see what I have been trying to get at. They are
unsuitable for some people.

That is not all you've been getting at, you've been heavily rubbishing the
product.

I do see what you've been trying to get at about those "some people", but
I don't agree that the problems have to be solved by changing the bars in
as many cases as you think necessary.

I never said everyone must use drops. However, some people would be
better off with drop bars than any other sort if only they altered the
riding position, updated the brake levers or pedalled harder. Some other
people would be better off not riding close behind you with any sort of
handlebars or bike.

Quoted message said:

But they're absolutely perfect and
totally beyond criticism - apparently.

No, but the compromises are not "nasty nasty". They're great.

You were not just criticising the bars, you were rubbishing them, and
rubbishing happy users too! As if anyone who claims they find them
comfortable is just pretending.

Please do us a favour by not reviving this thread if it has been left in
peace for some weeks or months. I don't think any argument is going to be
"won" in this thread but it would be nice if it could be left to fade
away. You could start a new thread and say what you like without directly
quoting anything from this thread. (Maybe I would resist replying to that
at all!). Thank you.

~PB

In article said:

Then you don't see what I have been trying to get at. They are unsuitable
for some people. But they're absolutely perfect and totally beyond
criticism - apparently.

Name one person (other than you) who has claimed anything close to that.

Back to the subject line, what can I do about soggy snow sticking on my
glasses? Stick a section of wiper blade on the back of my gloves?
Go back to contact lenses and blink?

in message <[email hidden]>, Jon

is Away! (') said:

But (and here's the clincher)

That's not a clincher, that's a tub.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

X-no-archive: No, I'm not *that* naive.

Alan Braggins said:

Back to the subject line, what can I do about soggy snow sticking on my
glasses? Stick a section of wiper blade on the back of my gloves?
Go back to contact lenses and blink?

Go back to contacts and wear blades. You still get the soggy snow
problem, but the lack of rim seems to aid removal, and if it gets too
much, you can at least remove them without the complete loss of sight
(Depending on your prescription. Before contacts removing my glasses
would have meant that I left the road a few seconds after!).

Jon

Alan Braggins said:

In article said:

Then you don't see what I have been trying to get at. They are unsuitable
for some people. But they're absolutely perfect and totally beyond
criticism - apparently.

Quoted message said:

Name one person (other than you) who has claimed anything close to that.

Quoted message said:

Back to the subject line, what can I do about soggy snow sticking on my
glasses? Stick a section of wiper blade on the back of my gloves?
Go back to contact lenses and blink?

Motorcycle shops sell gloves with a strip of chamois leather on the
back of the first finger for wiping your specs/goggles/visor/mirrors
clean. They also sell gloves which are usefully armoured against road
abrasion, for those of us who like to put our hands out in front of
our heads when flying through the air.

--
Chris Malcolm [email hidden] +44 (0)131 651 3445 DoD #205
IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK
[http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]

In article said:

Alan Braggins said:

Back to the subject line, what can I do about soggy snow sticking on my
glasses? Stick a section of wiper blade on the back of my gloves?
Go back to contact lenses and blink?

Go back to contacts and wear blades. You still get the soggy snow
problem, but the lack of rim seems to aid removal, and if it gets too
much, you can at least remove them without the complete loss of sight
(Depending on your prescription. Before contacts removing my glasses
would have meant that I left the road a few seconds after!).

Without glasses I can tell the difference between green verge and
black tarmac. Just about.