General fitness, health and nutrition · Public discussion

Re: Back to a discussion

Started by Mark Probert · · Last activity · 1 post · 333 views

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General fitness, health and nutrition
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27 July 2003
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Mark Probert
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  1. Peter Moran said:

    "Jan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Now, when did alternative medicine supporters ever get together to stop
    seriously ill patients being scammed?
    Why do they tolerate a marketing
    system wherein you can scarcely ever know whether ANY treatment, even of
    cancer, really works, let alone is safe?
    Why do they favour a
    testimonial-based method of treatment validation, when that is clearly
    throwing up endless claims but negligible useful treatments, a fact that
    then has to be obscured by allegations of a ridiculous global conspiracy?

    Quoted message said:

    I have seen all kinds of scams, diet, body wraps, rebirthing, rings that

    claim

    Quoted message said:

    you can live forever, anti-aging. I believe steps are taken to get these
    stopped.

    But another will pop up immediately.

    Good for you, anyway! I am so proud of you. Do you think it likely
    that at
    least some of the cancer or AIDs treatments on offer are also scams?

    Quoted message said:

    The problem is, you believe anything alternative is a scam, you are wrong.

    Let's get this straight.

    I have never held or expressed such an opinion, nor have I heard it from
    other skeptics. The promoters of many alternatives are obviously quite
    sincere: Pauling, Hoffer, Gerson. Some are hard to be sure about and
    others are clearly recognisable as frauds if you have a grasp of the
    science. Being sincere, of course, does not protect you from error.

    Similarly with treatment claims. Skeptical opinion about them ranges from
    "utter nonsense", through "dubious or unsubstantiated", to "maybe, but the
    evidence looks weak". AM claims are typically put with an absolute
    certainty that is rarely seen within proper science. Skeptics react to
    that, but it is not quite the same thing as the "outright dismissal" that
    we are commonly accused of.

    I think our differences stem from the fact that AM supporters like yourself
    are working
    from conventions and standards that might be quite appropriate for you when
    you select treatments for personal use, on a trial and error basis, and at
    your own risk, as is your right.

    But testimonial and anecdotal evidence of usually poor to mediocre quality
    have become a kind of de facto standard for a massive industry, governing
    the marketing, the theory, the knowledge base, and even the selling of
    high-priced treatment to seriously ill patients.

    They are clearly not proving discriminatory of which treatments work better,
    most often or for what. Sorting that out happens to be the sole objective
    of medicine at every other time and in all other cultures.

    They are supporting far too much wild and improbable theory.

    Worst of all they are easily exploited by any old fool or villain. .

    Do you see what I am getting at? Putting it another way, there is no such
    thing as "sufficient evidence" within medicine without a practical context.

    Greater standards of evidence shoudl be required depending on the purpose
    (from low to high) --

    Willingness to try a treatment for personal use.
    Willingness to try a treatment instead of one of known benefit.
    A practitioner trying a treatment on a patient where no other effective
    treatment exists.
    Ethically market a treatment for anxiety or other conditions with strong
    placebo responsiveness.
    Ethically market a treatment for AIDS or cancer, or other serious conditions
    that don't respond to placebo. .
    Claim to have adequate support for a working hypothesis.
    Claim to have absolute scientific proof of a proposition.

    This list could be expanded nedlessly. I am not sure where "Claim that a
    treatment 'worked for me'" should go, since so much depends upon context,
    and whether the level of certainty expressed takes into account all possible
    alternaitve explanations for the facts. We do not need to doubt the facts
    themselves to have reservations..

    Thus your personal standards may be fine for you. You should respect the
    wider concerns of others, and the different standards that they must apply.

    Most of all you might consider that nothing will change, and alternative
    medicine will never get any better, unless its supporters and users start
    demanding better information about methods before trying them.

    (I like peeing into the wind, it helps clear the mind).

    Extraordinarily well said.

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