General fitness, health and nutrition · Public discussion

Re A recent statement by Ornish.

Nick · 2003-11-27T23:20:59+00:00

I won't address Robert any more due to his incredibly agressive ignorance, though I think he may be a shill for the processed food industry - they sound very similar to him. To "doe," however, I would say that it is clear that the body can deal with a bit of excess iron if there is little for it to react with. If your cells contain the Mead acids instead of arachidonic acid, as do people on diets common in America (processed food diets or diets high in polyunsaturated fatty acids), they are much less bioactive. Have you read recent studies on adipocytokines? Also, if you ate some sorghum molasses, it rips the excess iron out of your body. I agree that iron is a major problem, but if you read the studies on oxidized cholesterol, only in the presence of PUFAs is there a lot of oxidation going on. This is even more the case for AGEs. I've read the studies of the experiments, and I've posted them here in the past. That's what the evidence points to, if you know some basic biochemistry to begin with - otherwise, you will just fixate on one idea, and then find a few studies that seem to support that idea. That's not a scientific way to do things. Think about the catalytic converter in a car - there has to be the metal along with the chemicals that react with it. I've got some very old relatives with lipofuscin - age spots - which contain lots of iron. That's how a body can deal with the iron. If they were on a high PUFA diet all their lives, the odds they would have made it as far as they did is miniscule at best. PUFAs in more than trace amounts do some many dangerous things to the body it is frightening - and the evidence is there for all to see. www.pubmed.com doe posted: "And where do YOU think all the rust / oxidation / free radicals are coming .. from ..?"

Started by Nick · 27 November 2003 · Last activity 27 November 2003 · 4 posts · 457 views

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Original section: General fitness, health and nutrition
Published: 27 November 2003
Last activity: 27 November 2003
Original author: Nick
Posts: 4
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Original post
Nick
Archived post

27 November 2003, 23:20 UTC #1

I won't address Robert any more due to his incredibly agressive ignorance, though I think he may be
a shill for the processed food industry - they sound very similar to him. To "doe," however, I would
say that it is clear that the body can deal with a bit of excess iron if there is little for it to
react with. If your cells contain the Mead acids instead of arachidonic acid, as do people on diets
common in America (processed food diets or diets high in polyunsaturated fatty acids), they are much
less bioactive. Have you read recent studies on adipocytokines? Also, if you ate some sorghum
molasses, it rips the excess iron out of your body. I agree that iron is a major problem, but if you
read the studies on oxidized cholesterol, only in the presence of PUFAs is there a lot of oxidation
going on. This is even more the case for AGEs. I've read the studies of the experiments, and I've
posted them here in the past. That's what the evidence points to, if you know some basic
biochemistry to begin with - otherwise, you will just fixate on one idea, and then find a few
studies that seem to support that idea. That's not a scientific way to do things. Think about the
catalytic converter in a car - there has to be the metal along with the chemicals that react with
it. I've got some very old relatives with lipofuscin - age spots - which contain lots of iron.
That's how a body can deal with the iron. If they were on a high PUFA diet all their lives, the odds
they would have made it as far as they did is miniscule at best. PUFAs in more than trace amounts do
some many dangerous things to the body it is frightening - and the evidence is there for all to see.
www.pubmed.com
doe posted:
"And where do YOU think all the rust / oxidation / free radicals are coming .. from ..?"

Report
Robert
Archived post

27 November 2003, 23:24 UTC #2

"nick" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...
Quoted message said:
I won't address Robert any more due to his incredibly agressive ignorance, though I think he may
be a shill for the processed food industry - they
Well yea, I prefer my meat processed but not by the food industry.

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Doe
Archived post

27 November 2003, 23:24 UTC #3

Quoted message said:
Subject: Re A recent statement by Ornish. From: "nick" [email hidden] Date: 11/22/2003 11:03 PM
Mountain Standard Time Message-id: <[email hidden]>
I won't address Robert any more due to his incredibly agressive ignorance, though I think he may be
a shill for the processed food industry - they sound very similar to him. To "doe," however, I
would say that it is clear that the body can deal with a bit of excess iron if there is little for
it to react with. If your cells contain the Mead acids instead of arachidonic acid, as do people on
diets common in America (processed food diets or diets high in polyunsaturated fatty acids), they
are much less bioactive.
I'm not sure whether you are referring to studies which show increased oxidation in those who take
fish oil .. ?
Quoted message said:
Have you read recent studies on adipocytokines?
May have ..
Quoted message said:
Also, if you ate some sorghum molasses, it rips the excess iron out of >your body.
Haven't heard that ..
Quoted message said:
I agree that iron is a major problem, but if you read the studies on oxidized cholesterol, only in
the presence of PUFAs is there a lot of oxidation going on.
I believe I read .. only .. if there is iron to catalyze .. in vegetable derived pufa ..
But in fish oil ..
Biochim Biophys Acta. 2000 Aug 24;1487(1):1-14. Related Articles, Links
Fish oil diet affects on oxidative senescence of red blood cells linked to degeneration of spleen
cells in mice.
Oarada M, Furukawa H, Majima T, Miyazawa T.
Research Center for Pathogenic Fungi and Microbial Toxicoses, Chiba University, Chiba
260-0856, Japan.
The effect of dietary polyunsaturated fatty acids and alpha-tocopherol supplementation on
erythrocyte lipid peroxidation and immunocompetent cells in mice was studied comparatively using
seven dietary oils (15% oil/diet, w/w) including fish oil rich in eicosapentaenoic acid (EPA, 20:5,
n-3) and docosahexaenoic acid (DHA, 22:6, n-3). A 43% increase in spleen weight, about twice as many
spleen cells and no change in the subpopulations of spleen cells, as well as a significant
depression of mitogen-induced blastogenesis of both T and B cells in the spleen were observed in
mice fed fish oil for 30 days in comparison with soybean oil diet-fed mice. In the fish oil diet-fed
mice, membranous lipid hydroperoxide (hydroperoxides of phosphatidylcholine and
phosphatidylethanolamine) accumulation as a marker of oxidative senescence in red blood cells (RBC)
was 2.7-3.5 times higher than that in mice fed soybean oil, although there was no difference in the
plasma phosphatidylcholine hydroperoxide concentration. In spite of the supplementation of
alpha-tocopherol to up to 10 times the level in the basal diet, the degeneration of spleen cells and
the stimulated oxidative senescence of RBC found by the fish oil feeding could not be prevented. The
results suggest that oral intake of excess polyunsaturated fatty acids, i.e. EPA and DHA, in a fish
oil diet can lead to acceleration of membrane lipid peroxidation resulting in RBC senescence linked
to the lowering of immune response of spleen cells, and that supplementation of alpha-tocopherol as
antioxidant does not always effectively prevent such oxidative degeneration as observed in spleen
cells and RBC in vivo.
PMID: 11004607 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
------
This is even
Quoted message said:
more the case for AGEs. I've read the studies of the experiments, and I've posted them here in
the past. That's what the evidence points to, if you know some basic biochemistry to begin with -
otherwise, you will just fixate on one idea, and then find a few studies that seem to support
that idea.
Hmm .. So you believe the intake of iron from meat sources do not lead to increased iron stores
ABOVE what might be considered .. healthy .. ?
Quoted message said:
That's not a scientific way to do things.
And you are saying that the 'scientific way' is the ONLY .. way .. ?
Quoted message said:
Think about the catalytic converter in a car - there has to be the metal along with the chemicals
that react with it. I've got some very old relatives with lipofuscin - age spots - which contain
lots of iron. That's how a body can deal with the iron.
By making lipofuscin ..? This is .. good .. ?
Quoted message said:
If they were on a high PUFA diet all their >lives, the odds they would have made it as far as they
did is miniscule at best.
Only if there is iron in the mix. Or if ones' intake is from fish oil / animal source.
tinyurl.comw6e1
Quoted message said:
PUFAs in more than trace amounts do some many dangerous >things to the body it is frightening - and
the evidence is there for all to see.
This Pufa is from animal / fish source .. ?
www.pubmed.com
Quoted message said:

doe posted:
"And where do YOU think all the rust / oxidation / free radicals are coming .. from ..?"
Who loves ya. Tom Jesus Was A Vegetarian! jesuswasavegetarian.7h.comjesuswasavegetarian.7h.com Man Is A Herbivore!
pages.ivillage.commanisaherbivore DEAD PEOPLE WALKING
pages.ivillage.comdeadpeoplewalking

Report
Robert
Archived post

27 November 2003, 23:27 UTC #4

"doe" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...
Quoted message said:
Quoted message said:
Subject: Re A recent statement by Ornish. From: "nick" [email hidden] Date: 11/22/2003 11:03 PM
Mountain Standard Time Message-id: <[email hidden]>
I won't address Robert any more due to his incredibly agressive

ignorance,
Quoted message said:
Quoted message said:
though I think he may be a shill for the processed food industry - they sound very similar to
him. To "doe," however, I would say that it is

clear
Quoted message said:
Quoted message said:
that the body can deal with a bit of excess iron if there is little for

it
Quoted message said:
Quoted message said:
to react with. If your cells contain the Mead acids instead of

arachidonic
Quoted message said:
Quoted message said:
acid, as do people on diets common in America (processed food diets or

diets
Quoted message said:
Quoted message said:
high in polyunsaturated fatty acids), they are much less bioactive.
Sounds like a very serious allegation is being made by Nick there.
Quoted message said:

I'm not sure whether you are referring to studies which show increased oxidation in those who take
fish oil .. ?
Quoted message said:
Have you read recent studies on adipocytokines?
How can anyone miss those studies. They were very definitive and discussed by all at every Starbucks
Coffee house that I know of.
Quoted message said:

May have ..
Quoted message said:
Also, if you ate some sorghum molasses, it rips the excess iron out of >your body.
Haven't heard that ..
Quoted message said:
I agree that iron is a major problem, but if you read the studies on oxidized cholesterol, only

in
Quoted message said:
Quoted message said:
the presence of PUFAs is there a lot of oxidation going on.
Much too much to make me feel comfortable.
Quoted message said:

I believe I read .. only .. if there is iron to catalyze .. in vegetable derived pufa ..
But in fish oil ..
Biochim Biophys Acta. 2000 Aug 24;1487(1):1-14. Related Articles, Links
Fish oil diet affects on oxidative senescence of red blood cells linked to degeneration of spleen
cells in mice.
I knew it, I thought that was what you were referring to.
Quoted message said:

Oarada M, Furukawa H, Majima T, Miyazawa T.
Research Center for Pathogenic Fungi and Microbial Toxicoses, Chiba

University,
Quoted message said:
Chiba 260-0856, Japan.
They have a clinic in Minnesota I believe.
Quoted message said:

The effect of dietary polyunsaturated fatty acids and alpha-tocopherol supplementation on
erythrocyte lipid peroxidation and immunocompetent

cells in
Quoted message said:
mice was studied comparatively using seven dietary oils (15% oil/diet,

w/w)
Quoted message said:
including fish oil rich in eicosapentaenoic acid (EPA, 20:5, n-3) and docosahexaenoic acid (DHA,
22:6, n-3). A 43% increase in spleen weight,

about
Quoted message said:
twice as many spleen cells and no change in the subpopulations of spleen

cells,
Quoted message said:
as well as a significant depression of mitogen-induced blastogenesis of

both T
Quoted message said:
and B cells in the spleen were observed in mice fed fish oil for 30 days

in
Quoted message said:
comparison with soybean oil diet-fed mice. In the fish oil diet-fed mice, membranous lipid
hydroperoxide (hydroperoxides of phosphatidylcholine and phosphatidylethanolamine) accumulation as
a marker of oxidative senescence

in
Quoted message said:
red blood cells (RBC) was 2.7-3.5 times higher than that in mice fed

soybean
Quoted message said:
oil, although there was no difference in the plasma phosphatidylcholine hydroperoxide
concentration. In spite of the supplementation of alpha-tocopherol to up to 10 times the level in
the basal diet, the degeneration of spleen cells and the stimulated oxidative senescence of

RBC
Quoted message said:
found by the fish oil feeding could not be prevented. The results suggest

that
Quoted message said:
oral intake of excess polyunsaturated fatty acids, i.e. EPA and DHA, in a

fish
Quoted message said:
oil diet can lead to acceleration of membrane lipid peroxidation resulting

in
Quoted message said:
RBC senescence linked to the lowering of immune response of spleen cells,

and
Quoted message said:
that supplementation of alpha-tocopherol as antioxidant does not always effectively prevent such
oxidative degeneration as observed in spleen

cells and
Quoted message said:
RBC in vivo.
So antioxidants could not prevent anything. That's a shame as we have to go to bed thinking that all
those free radicals are tearing us apart.
Quoted message said:

PMID: 11004607 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
------
This is even
Quoted message said:
more the case for AGEs. I've read the studies of the experiments, and

I've
Quoted message said:
Quoted message said:
posted them here in the past. That's what the evidence points to, if you know some basic
biochemistry to begin with - otherwise, you will just

fixate
Quoted message said:
Quoted message said:
on one idea, and then find a few studies that seem to support that idea.
No, I try not to get fixated on one idea. Basic Biochemistry is everywhere. People just have to
understand it and most don't because they get fixated.
Quoted message said:

Hmm .. So you believe the intake of iron from meat sources do not lead to

increased
Quoted message said:
iron stores ABOVE what might be considered .. healthy .. ?
Quoted message said:
That's not a scientific way to do things.
And you are saying that the 'scientific way' is the ONLY .. way .. ?
Absolutely not the only way. Scientific way is one and the others are non Scientific, but let's not
get fixated on that as it is all basic biochemistry.
Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:
Think about the catalytic converter in a car - there has to be the metal along with the
chemicals

that
Quoted message said:
Quoted message said:
react with it. I've got some very old relatives with lipofuscin - age spots - which contain lots
of iron. That's how a body can deal with the iron.
By making lipofuscin ..?
Lipo means skin in a biochemical sense and fuscin means iron.
Quoted message said:
This is .. good .. ?
Yes, you can surgically remove them and thus rid the body of iron and thus prevent rust. It's the
rust, you see, that is the oxidized most dangerous form.
Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:
If they were on a high PUFA diet all their >lives, the odds they would have made it as far as
they did is miniscule at best.
Only if there is iron in the mix. Or if ones' intake is from fish oil / animal source.
You can tell if they have too much iron by the MRI scans. They come flying out ripping the skin and
being pulled toward the magnet. Very bad.
Quoted message said:

tinyurl.comw6e1
Quoted message said:
PUFAs in more than trace amounts do some many dangerous >things to the body it is

frightening -
Quoted message said:
Quoted message said:
and the evidence is there for all to see.
I hear you, way too danerous for people to mess with.
Quoted message said:

This Pufa is from animal / fish source .. ?
It's from the Pufa fish. Tropical fish that feeds in high iron waters. It needs to be prepared right
before it is safe to eat.
Quoted message said:

www.pubmed.com
Quoted message said:

doe posted:
"And where do YOU think all the rust / oxidation / free radicals are

coming
Quoted message said:
Quoted message said:
.. from ..?"
That's pretty much basic biochemistry and everyone who reads and understands know that.
Quoted message said:

Who loves ya. Tom Jesus Was A Vegetarian! jesuswasavegetarian.7h.comjesuswasavegetarian.7h.com Man Is A Herbivore!
pages.ivillage.commanisaherbivore DEAD PEOPLE WALKING

pages.ivillage.comdeadpeoplewalking

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