Re:

Al C-F [email hidden] opined the
following...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

but you don't get pompous asses in pink coats riding
horses through them.

Oh dear.

Oh dear or not... he's right. The concentration of foxes is far higher
in urban areas, but it's a rare sight to see the hunt blatting through
the centre of Milton Keynes, jumping hedges with horns blaring. It is a
(blood) sport, and should be treated with the same level of respect as
badger baiting and cockfighting.

Jon

Al C-F said:

Quoted message said:

but you don't get pompous asses in pink coats riding
horses through them.

Oh dear.

Yeah, I thought that too.

I don't really have any strong feelings one way or another over
hunting, however I do have strong feelings over how much
parliamentary time and effort has been dedicated to the well being of
some foxes.

In this country we have people homeless and sleeping in cardboard
boxes on the streets. We have pensioners freezing to death every
winter because they are afraid of their gas bill. Christ, our county
is now neck deep in a bloody and futile war... and yet time and again
our "democratic" machine returns to this issue, devoting countless
hours and huge resources battling backwards and forwards. For [censored]
foxes.

Foxes?

--

Email address is spam trapped, to reply directly remove the beverage.

In article <[email hidden]>,

Call me Bob said:

hunting, however I do have strong feelings over how much
parliamentary time and effort has been dedicated to the well being of
some foxes.

Red herring. The elected majority of MPs (the democratic bit of our
system) has been utterly consistent, and would have got it through
first time (as their manifesto promised) if democracy worked properly.
Blair has faffed about because he wants to appease a bunch of very
wealthy people[1] accustomed to getting their own way and with strong
media influence.

[1] Remember Ecclestone et al? Noveau Riche businessmen are nothing
compared to Ancestral Wealth and Influence.

--
Nick Kew

On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 10:35:05 GMT, Simon Brooke <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

in message <[email hidden]>, Al C-F

(') said:

you know? said:

On Sun, 21 Nov 2004 19:42:45 +0000, " [Not Responding] "
<[email hidden]> wrote in message
<[email hidden]>:

>And there was parliament labouring under the impression the ban was a
>ban on animal suffering when all along it was a ban on people
>enjoying themselves.

No, not enjoying themselves, enjoying killing things. There is a
difference. Drag hunting remains legal, after all.

Yet said things are still to be killed, but in less effective (and
probably less enjoyable) ways.

First off, I unreservedly apologise for starting this thread. However,
to bring us back OT and clarify my position; I'll be following the
Boxing Day hunt by bike this year.

Quoted message said:

You know, this is all bollocks. Fifteen rabbits eat enough grass to feed
one sheep; a fox feeding a litter of young will cull that many in four
days. Even if it were true (as shepherds allege) that foxes
occasionally take lambs,

Does anyone contest this? Serious question. I've found lots of lambs
that looked to me to be fox killed but I'll admit it's just a lifelong
assumption that it was reynard that did the deed.

Quoted message said:

foxes are a net benefit even on sheep farms.
For farmers who farm cattle, or for arable farmers, foxes are pure
benefit: they keep down the rabbits, hares, rats and voles which
otherwise consume pasture and damage crops. Only to free-range poultry
farmers

Not just farmers. It includes people like me who keep[1] our own
poultry because we object to the cruelty involved in factory farming.
I spent a summer working in a Norfolk turkey slaughter/freezing
factory once and have never been so appalled. Was even more shocked
when I reported it all to the RSPCA who said everything was legal and
above board.

[1] actually, "kept". Fox got the last lot. Honestly.

Quoted message said:

and people rearing pheasants for 'sport'

Now that is a "sport" that is cruel and wasteful. If I were into
banning things, this would be on the list.

Quoted message said:

are foxes a 'pest';
for everyone else in the countryside they are pure benefit. There is no
reason for /country/ people to consider foxes vermin. And like any
other climax predator, when the availability of prey won't support the
population it will control itself automatically by starvation.

I appreciate that in urban areas and around major landfill sites things
may be different, but you don't get pompous asses in pink coats riding
horses through them.

Ah. I think I see where you're coming from now.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not massively pro-hunt and have never really
been involved in the debate. My involvement in the sport is limited to
seeing the hunt off and, maybe, following on foot or bike once a year.
I'm just sad to see the end of the tradition.

[Not Responding] [email hidden] opined the
following...

Quoted message said:

First off, I unreservedly apologise for starting this thread. However,
to bring us back OT and clarify my position; I'll be following the
Boxing Day hunt by bike this year.

MTB? That sounds like quite a good cycling challenge. Will there be a
Boxing Day hunt this year though?

Quoted message said:

Not just farmers. It includes people like me who keep[1] our own
poultry because we object to the cruelty involved in factory farming.
I spent a summer working in a Norfolk turkey slaughter/freezing
factory once and have never been so appalled. Was even more shocked
when I reported it all to the RSPCA who said everything was legal and
above board.

Sadly, what consistitutes legal is a very low standard. I see no reason
for not banning battery farming altogether.

Quoted message said:

[1] actually, "kept". Fox got the last lot. Honestly.

Did you see it? I know that when she was younger, one of my parent's
cats would have viewed a garden of chickens as an easy target.

Quoted message said:

Now that is a "sport" that is cruel and wasteful. If I were into
banning things, this would be on the list.

Although I sort of agree, there is the consideration that at the end of
it, the animals that have been killed are hung and eaten. In the balance
of things a free range life followed by a gun shot strikes me as a
little different from running them down over many miles.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I appreciate that in urban areas and around major landfill sites things
may be different, but you don't get pompous asses in pink coats riding
horses through them.

Ah. I think I see where you're coming from now.

But they are often pompous asses in pink (red) coats. Hence the reason
that only when things were getting desperate for them, did they try and
actively seek spokespeople who would appeal to the "common man".

"My father, and his father before him have hunted in this country as far
back as we can remember" is not a good justification for the
continuation of a blood sport.

Quoted message said:

Don't get me wrong, I'm not massively pro-hunt and have never really
been involved in the debate. My involvement in the sport is limited to
seeing the hunt off and, maybe, following on foot or bike once a year.
I'm just sad to see the end of the tradition.

We'll find another one to replace it. If the hunters refuse to use drag
hunting, then I'm sure that another "tradition" involving dressing up
and pratting around the countryside will be dreamt up. We're pretty good
at that sort of thing. A few years down the line they'll swear they've
been doing it for generations. :-)

Jon

"Richard Bates" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 23:35:10 GMT, Simon Brooke <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

And the reason for killing foxes in the first place is?

Because they interfere with other equally immoral activities such as
"farming" chickens.

and pheasants!

MartinM said:

"Richard Bates" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 23:35:10 GMT, Simon Brooke <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

And the reason for killing foxes in the first place is?

Because they interfere with other equally immoral activities such as
"farming" chickens.

and pheasants!

I presume you are completely vegetarian then?
Or only eat wild shot meat.

I'd much prefer pheasant farming to battery chickens.

...d

David Martin said:

I'd much prefer pheasant farming to battery chickens.

Pheasants are farmed as it is, effectively. They're rather more free
range than most farmed animals, but they're certainly managed. And
they're also very, very good to eat.

I was a veggie for over a decade as I'd just lost interest in meat,
finding it unappetising. And I still find battery chicken unappetising
so I don't eat it, but it was people giving me an option on stuff like
pheasant that caused me to stop being a veggie.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

On 24/11/04 11:02 am, in article [email hidden], "Peter

Clinch said:

David Martin said:

I'd much prefer pheasant farming to battery chickens.

Pheasants are farmed as it is, effectively. They're rather more free
range than most farmed animals, but they're certainly managed. And
they're also very, very good to eat.

I was a veggie for over a decade as I'd just lost interest in meat,
finding it unappetising. And I still find battery chicken unappetising
so I don't eat it, but it was people giving me an option on stuff like
pheasant that caused me to stop being a veggie.

It's probably time to make sure I have a suitable bag with me for riding as
there seem to be a lot of pheasant on the road..

We got a mountain hare at Glenshee when it decided to headbut the car at
50mph. Currently hanging, should be jugged for the weekend.

...d

Peter Clinch <[email hidden]> wrote:

: finding it unappetising. And I still find battery chicken unappetising
: so I don't eat it

That's because battery chicken taste of sweet FA 🙂

It's the stuff that goes into "Chicken" sandwiches that scares me even more mind.

Arthur

--
Arthur Clune PGP/GPG Key: http://www.clune.org/pubkey.txt
It is better to light a candle than to curse the darkness

David Martin said:

I presume you are completely vegetarian then?

Not a perfect one. I avoid dead animal products in my diet. I also
attempt to minimise the use of dairy products at home, although when
eating out I lapse. Eggs I will eat if free range.

I still own a couple of pairs of leather shoes purchased many many
years ago and see no reason to dispose of them. I'm no longer a vegan
as such but I am what I call a "VGV" - Very Good Vegetarian.

I *do* still use Shimano products, a company who manufacture fishing
equipment, and probably use many other products which contain hidden
animal products, such as adhesives. It wouldn't surprise me if bicycle
tyres and tubes had some animal products in there somewhere...

....and I won't be ordering a Brookes saddle :-)

Arthur Clune said:

That's because battery chicken taste of sweet FA 🙂

Ah. You've obviously come across better stuff than I have, then... ;-/

Quoted message said:

It's the stuff that goes into "Chicken" sandwiches that scares me even more mind.

Coupled with the fact that about 75% of the pieces and rolls for sale in
the various kiosks and cafes here are based on, ummm, whatever the hell
it is :-(

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Peter Clinch said:

Arthur Clune said:

That's because battery chicken taste of sweet FA 🙂

Ah. You've obviously come across better stuff than I have, then... ;-/

Quoted message said:

It's the stuff that goes into "Chicken" sandwiches that scares me even
more mind.

Coupled with the fact that about 75% of the pieces and rolls for sale in
the various kiosks and cafes here are based on, ummm, whatever the hell
it is :-(

After a few years in Japan, I have given up worrying about what is in
the food, and merely choose the menu with the greatest number of
calories. When a lift can say "Capacity 11 people - 650kg" (as ours
does) then fussing over quality takes second place to staying alive!

James
--
If I have seen further than others, it is
by treading on the toes of giants.
http://www.ne.jp/asahi/julesandjames/home/

Not Responding said:

On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 10:35:05 GMT, Simon Brooke <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

You know, this is all bollocks. Fifteen rabbits eat enough grass to feed
one sheep; a fox feeding a litter of young will cull that many in four
days. Even if it were true (as shepherds allege) that foxes
occasionally take lambs,

Does anyone contest this? Serious question. I've found lots of lambs
that looked to me to be fox killed but I'll admit it's just a lifelong
assumption that it was reynard that did the deed.

I'm sure foxes kill some healthy lambs, but many will have been dead or
at least sickly beforehand, and how can you tell if it was a dog that
did it?

James
--
If I have seen further than others, it is
by treading on the toes of giants.
http://www.ne.jp/asahi/julesandjames/home/

On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 23:58:17 -0000, Jon Senior

jon_AT_restlesslemon_DOTco_DOT_uk said:

It is a
(blood) sport, and should be treated with the same level of respect as
badger baiting and cockfighting.

ITYM "badgerbadgerbadger baiting" ;-)

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at Washington University

Call me Bob said:

I don't really have any strong feelings one way or another over
hunting, however I do have strong feelings over how much
parliamentary time and effort has been dedicated to the well being of
some foxes.

I take it this is a criticism of the House of Lords which is largely
responsible for that diversion of time and effort due to its
consistent thwarting of the elected chamber in introducing the measure
:-)

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at Washington University

Just zis Guy said:

I take it this is a criticism of the House of Lords which is largely
responsible for that diversion of time and effort due to its
consistent thwarting of the elected chamber in introducing the measure

Nothing wrong with The House Of Lords

<URL: http://www.superskilly.com>

Oh, you mean there's /another/ one?

--

Dave Larrington - http://www.legslarry.beerdrinkers.co.uk/
World Domination?
Just find a world that's into that kind of thing, then chain to the
floor and walk up and down on it in high heels. (Mr. Sunshine)

On Wed, 24 Nov 2004 08:03:15 -0000, Jon Senior

jon_AT_restlesslemon_DOTco_DOT_uk said:

"My father, and his father before him have hunted in this country as far
back as we can remember" is not a good justification for the
continuation of a blood sport.

Especially when hunting itself will still be perfectly legal, but
without the involvement of Brother Renard. As in Germany, drag hunts
will still be legal.

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at Washington University

On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 23:55:56 -0000, Jon Senior

jon_AT_restlesslemon_DOTco_DOT_uk said:

Quoted message said:

(Number of foxes wounded) / (number of foxes engaged) would yield a
larger number for shooting (and probably poisoning) than for hunting
with hounds.

This also depends (As mentioned previously) on who does the shooting. A
good marksmen with a rifle should have little trouble getting a one /
two shot kill.

Time for a second shot? OK, if you insist.

Any foxes left wounded by hounds?

On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 23:50:30 -0000, Jon Senior

jon_AT_restlesslemon_DOTco_DOT_uk said:

Quoted message said:

One of the arguements put forward is that: "there is little or no pain due
to the adreanlin in the system. As ther is no pain it is not cruel."
(paraphrase). That is debatable (obviously) but is not wholly untrue.

Not sure about that one. And there is more at stake than physical pain
at the end.

The foxes right to life, love and the pursuit of happiness? Dignity?
Self-realisation?

YA Beatrix Potter AICMFP