Racing Etiquette

Bigbananabike said:

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Its a road cycling race club. Every race is a race - for you to call them glorified training sessions is demeaning to them - please do not.
One of our riders got bronze in the Commonwealth games time trial(and several regularly race in the USA/Europe etc - so they're reasonable riders.
There are still tactics within our club rules - can you not imagine that?

Personally I think its a sad rule to have, which basically says that sprinters are not valid riders. Can you imagine an Olympic or Commonwealth Games where a rider gets DQ'd because of sitting in.

Personally I think its a valid tactic to sit in, after all the only thing that counts is first across the line. That doesnt mean my blood doesn't boil when it gets done to me 😠, but conversely I only have myself to blame that it happened.

Basically the club it appears is dictating "how you win the race". To me it all should happen out on the road. Heck we climbers gang up on the sprinters ... is that fair 😕 Heck yea 😄

If people are trying to sit in for a sprint finish then make them work. If there are a few of you lapping it out at the front then as you drop to the back of the paceline ease off the pace and let a gap develop, this will force the sleigh riders to come around you and bridge the gap, you just jump on their wheel and get a free ride back to the bunch. This will [censored] them off - which is acceptable. If they complain, tell them to do something about it and take a turn at the front.

thekiwi said:

Personally I think its a sad rule to have, which basically says that sprinters are not valid riders. Can you imagine an Olympic or Commonwealth Games where a rider gets DQ'd because of sitting in.

Personally I think its a valid tactic to sit in, after all the only thing that counts is first across the line. That doesnt mean my blood doesn't boil when it gets done to me 😠, but conversely I only have myself to blame that it happened.

Basically the club it appears is dictating "how you win the race". To me it all should happen out on the road. Heck we climbers gang up on the sprinters ... is that fair 😕 Heck yea 😄

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It is a sad rule to have - mainly because I think we should all work together to get the group moving at a good rate. It(we) still think those with greater sprint ability are valid riders but we don't think its valid they do no or little work and anex those who have worked for the whole or most of the way.
Hopefully its fostering riders who are more 'rounded' than just being sprinters or hillclimbers etc.

On a lighter note, when its not our race season I often ride with a social bunch(they do charity/fun rides etc and most are pretty good riders) on Saturday mornings. There is a range of abilities but as most do only the above they have little sprint ability(one guy - ex racer does and I can never come around him) or ability to judge who's wheel to get on etc. So, come the end of the ride, I usually win or get second in (not particularly good at sprinting) the "sprint" to the cafe mainly by tackics they don't have.

SteveChapman said:

If people are trying to sit in for a sprint finish then make them work. If there are a few of you lapping it out at the front then as you drop to the back of the paceline ease off the pace and let a gap develop, this will force the sleigh riders to come around you and bridge the gap, you just jump on their wheel and get a free ride back to the bunch. This will [censored] them off - which is acceptable. If they complain, tell them to do something about it and take a turn at the front.

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Those tactics are employed too.
We tell them to pull their weight up the front too. Its a bit hard for me as I've only raced with the club for 1 season and don't know who most are and their abilities and if someone is genuinely hanging on the back and doesn't have the speed to lap out(its sometimes me!) I am happy for them to stay there🙂

so in answer to the original question.

There is no rule against sitting in and sprinting. You have to find another way to break them up.

My personnel rule is in a break away or small field (we often only get in the order of 15 riders of all grades to a club meeting being a small country town) i work as long as i can and rest only if i have to. This is good alround training and i think ettiqute. In a larger field i always sit - in for the first half of the race as i am a slow starter but i finish stronger.

By the way, keeping the field moving at a high rate makes for an easy race for those sitting in. For those who think a race without teams is slower and easier - wrong. Higher grade race of this sort tend to swing wildly in speed if no one works the front at our club and it effectively becomes a series of attacks where only the strong survive.

jerrek said:

so in answer to the original question.

There is no rule against sitting in and sprinting. You have to find another way to break them up.

My personnel rule is in a break away or small field (we often only get in the order of 15 riders of all grades to a club meeting being a small country town) i work as long as i can and rest only if i have to. This is good alround training and i think ettiqute. In a larger field i always sit - in for the first half of the race as i am a slow starter but i finish stronger.

By the way, keeping the field moving at a high rate makes for an easy race for those sitting in. For those who think a race without teams is slower and easier - wrong. Higher grade race of this sort tend to swing wildly in speed if no one works the front at our club and it effectively becomes a series of attacks where only the strong survive.

I am a sprinter who is 200 pounds. I have a tough time on the hills but get sick of the whining. The pencil necked geeks always complain in the crits when they get pimped. I take my beating on hilly races and no one can hear me because i'm out of breath off the back 🙂 . Why not just start practicing your sprints??? or your breakaways. No one complains when the sprinters get dropped in hilly races. I used to get dropped all the time in races and no one complain....once i could get to the line no one complained....now i can get to the line with a sprint and win people whine. 🙄 I have guys yell at me to pull in a small group on a hilly circuit race. I look up and say "race your own race"....... a few minutes later I'm off the back. 😠 In a flat race I sit in and win and the whining happens. Sick of it....why don't the riders in the Tour De France "protest" when Robbie McEwen wins a sprint. He usually touches the wind for about 50 meters of a 6 hour race.....crazy people. Grow up....shut up and race.

I have a question though....funny story....i was in a hilly hilly road race with 7000 feet of climbing. Only 15 starters and I got 8th because 6 dropped....any ways it was a long out & back. I was riding with one other rider after the one huge climb..... and after a while of rotating i told him i couldn't pull anymore 🙁 . We rolled for a while and had to climb back 3500 feet shortly. He started attacking me and I was able to stick to him on the flats. I wanted to just get home....well i decided to try to take a pull and when I did get in front of him for a bit....he attacked again. I was [censored]....he attacked on the climbs and i stayed with him. He attacked on the downhill and i can descend and i was [censored] as he went around 3 cars at 50mph + . I caught him and i thought about sprinting him at the end for 10 miles....i went back and forth for like 30 minutes on whether i would sprint.....finally i decided he tried to drop me and i am a sprinter. I sprinted him at the end and won by 5 bike lengths. He was not super happy about the whole situation. I came back to some friends at the finish line and he proceeded to hurl multiple profanities my way. i just rode by and ignored him and met my friends who cheered me on. You would think it was the World championships.....get a life people. If you can't sprint....improve your sprint. Lance Armstrong i heard wasn't the best sprinter but he won his share of criteriums.....just curious what people think about this situation. It was weird because there was only us two in the "peleton".

jerrek said:

so in answer to the original question.

There is no rule against sitting in and sprinting. You have to find another way to break them up.

My personnel rule is in a break away or small field (we often only get in the order of 15 riders of all grades to a club meeting being a small country town) i work as long as i can and rest only if i have to. This is good alround training and i think ettiqute. In a larger field i always sit - in for the first half of the race as i am a slow starter but i finish stronger.
<snip>

My other original question (which was quite hidden in the original post) is, how does a breakaway occur? Well, I know how to get away, ride faster than everyone else. However, I have no hope of competing with a chasing pack on my own. So obviously, I need one or two others to either come with me when I jump, or someone (or two) to make it accross without dragging the pack with them.
The question is, assuming collusion is not allowed (as a previous poster suggested), does one just make a break and hope like hell that someone comes accross, or is it common to wink or nod, or whatever, to other riders before making the break?

peterlip said:

My other original question (which was quite hidden in the original post) is, how does a breakaway occur? Well, I know how to get away, ride faster than everyone else. However, I have no hope of competing with a chasing pack on my own. So obviously, I need one or two others to either come with me when I jump, or someone (or two) to make it accross without dragging the pack with them.
The question is, assuming collusion is not allowed (as a previous poster suggested), does one just make a break and hope like hell that someone comes accross, or is it common to wink or nod, or whatever, to other riders before making the break?

In the successful breaks that I've been in, I don't think even one of them was ever exactly planned out with the other riders.... One person goes off and someone, anyone who is not on the same team should chase. Really you don't want to do any sort of wink, nod - you want your attack to be a surprise to the pack! Don't try to roll off the front, attack from 2 or 3 back and make it as hard an effort as you can sustain. Here, generally it will be several people from different teams who take up the chase. Sometimes they will drag the whole pack up, sometimes it will just be a couple of people who bridge up to the person who initiates the break. Now comes the important part. Once you have even two people together you have to start working together immediately (rotating paceline!) or you are probably going to get caught. Since you don't have teams it will be harder to keep a break away. There is no incentive in the pack to slow the chase. If I get away in a break my team should not participate in any chase - they shouldn't work on the front - if they find they are at the front they should slow it down.
It's not like we get together with other people and say Hey - I'm going to try to break away, do you want to go.... If you find yourself in a good position to attack you do it and if you find yourself in a good position to chase the attack you do it. We do at times discuss within the team who we believe we will be working for and who is likely the strongest with the best chance to win, but when you actually get into the race that can all change.

peterlip said:

My other original question (which was quite hidden in the original post) is, how does a breakaway occur? Well, I know how to get away, ride faster than everyone else. However, I have no hope of competing with a chasing pack on my own. So obviously, I need one or two others to either come with me when I jump, or someone (or two) to make it accross without dragging the pack with them.
The question is, assuming collusion is not allowed (as a previous poster suggested), does one just make a break and hope like hell that someone comes accross, or is it common to wink or nod, or whatever, to other riders before making the break?

Try and get 50 m away from the pack and then time trial.
Either the pack will chase you down.
Someone will bridge accross. Then you work as a team.
The pack will let you get away with everyone unwilling to work.

If someone in the pack is willing to put lots of effort in this is pretty hard as they effectively sacrifice there race. So make sure you take stock of the situation and if you are going to get caught sit up and go back in the pack. Try again if you are able.make sure if somebody else attacks to not chase them down with the pack on your heel. Attack over to them yourself.

There is a Japanese rider called Koji [censored]. He attacks so often that it's sometimes(mostly) ridiculous. One of his best ever rides was an attack at the start of
a 172.5km stage of the Tour de Langkawi....it was a very very hot day and ....

-scores-epic-victory-in-tour-de-langkawi]Read about it here.... I have it on tape and it was an exceptional ride.

he attacked so often that people just gave up following him.....he bluffed an bluffed and then he played the ace...

As someone who used to [censored] about getting outsprinted and has had a lot of success this year via breakaways... the best way to initiate a break is to attack into a strong cross wind... then as everyone is strung out single file and you feel like you are dead... attack harder with all you are worth. Hopefully 2 or 3 or 5 other guys will come with you as everyone else pops or finds themselves too far back in the single file line to bridge. Then everyone else is racing for Bozoville.

What about attacking through the feedzone? Major faux pas or fair game since you carried 5 water bottles and a bag of bagels for the first 50 miles?

some suggestions...

- warm up well and attack right from the line... see who comes with you.. you may even want to wait a bit if someone promising is coming up to you (sounds like you know the competition by now
- as you are moving up to start your attack... tap the guys who you recognize as being strong and whisper... let's go...
- just attack and see who comes with you... don't attack all day long... choose your spots. e.g. when a rider who attacked has been brought back (working riders will be tired and unlikely to respond to your attack), after the strongest working rider has just taken a turn, into a corner
- attack with about ~1-2kms to go when people are just setting up for the inevitable sprint.. many will be unlikely to commit fully to following you then

if you're not one of the strongest sprinters.. then leaving it to a sprint is just dumb... you're conceding the race before it even began.. you might as well have stayed home. the only saving grace is that you got a workout if that is your priority for the day... but cycling is about 1st man or woman accross the line.

@Bigbananabike - DQ for not working enough?? that's got to be about the stupidest thing i've heard in a LONG time... this is cycling, and tactics is an integral part... everywhere else on the planet that is a perfectly valid tactic... as others have said... McEwen, Petacchi etc. would be out of a job if this tactic was not allowed.. it's there job to do what it takes for them to win and it's everyone elses job to do whatever it takes within the rules to win as well... if you let that sprinter come to the line with you, then that's your bad, not theirs.

boudie said:

I am a sprinter who is 200 pounds. I have a tough time on the hills but get sick of the whining. The pencil necked geeks always complain in the crits when they get pimped. I take my beating on hilly races and no one can hear me because i'm out of breath off the back 🙂 . Why not just start practicing your sprints??? or your breakaways. No one complains when the sprinters get dropped in hilly races. I used to get dropped all the time in races and no one complain....once i could get to the line no one complained....now i can get to the line with a sprint and win people whine. 🙄 I have guys yell at me to pull in a small group on a hilly circuit race. I look up and say "race your own race"....... a few minutes later I'm off the back. 😠 In a flat race I sit in and win and the whining happens. Sick of it....why don't the riders in the Tour De France "protest" when Robbie McEwen wins a sprint. He usually touches the wind for about 50 meters of a 6 hour race.....crazy people. Grow up....shut up and race.

I have a question though....funny story....i was in a hilly hilly road race with 7000 feet of climbing. Only 15 starters and I got 8th because 6 dropped....any ways it was a long out & back. I was riding with one other rider after the one huge climb..... and after a while of rotating i told him i couldn't pull anymore 🙁 . We rolled for a while and had to climb back 3500 feet shortly. He started attacking me and I was able to stick to him on the flats. I wanted to just get home....well i decided to try to take a pull and when I did get in front of him for a bit....he attacked again. I was [censored]....he attacked on the climbs and i stayed with him. He attacked on the downhill and i can descend and i was [censored] as he went around 3 cars at 50mph + . I caught him and i thought about sprinting him at the end for 10 miles....i went back and forth for like 30 minutes on whether i would sprint.....finally i decided he tried to drop me and i am a sprinter. I sprinted him at the end and won by 5 bike lengths. He was not super happy about the whole situation. I came back to some friends at the finish line and he proceeded to hurl multiple profanities my way. i just rode by and ignored him and met my friends who cheered me on. You would think it was the World championships.....get a life people. If you can't sprint....improve your sprint. Lance Armstrong i heard wasn't the best sprinter but he won his share of criteriums.....just curious what people think about this situation. It was weird because there was only us two in the "peleton".

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You say in a flat race you sit in and win - why don't you do some more work in the lead up to the sprint? Aim for a faster time overall instead of just sitting in.
The Tour de France is a completely different kettle of fish to club and general individual races(here at least).
Stop listening to the "pencil necked geeks" and take your own advice - shut up and race!

Thanks everyone for your tips and ideas.

Update:

Well, two weeks after posing the original question, I was chomping at the bit to get back on the road and try a thing or two suggested by forum contributors. Today's race was 5 laps of a 10km circuit. About 20 in our grade, mild weather, just enough rain to make the road damp, no wind and with the biggest climb being 10m, you'd have to call it a flat course.

The initial pace was ridiculously slow, so I spent the first 2.5 laps out the front, sharing with 3 or 4 others, keeping the pace up. I figured if it was too slow, any breakaway attempt would certainly fail. After the second lap, I started playing with the field a bit. Each time I was leading, when passed by someone, I would slow peddle to allow a gap to open to the new leader. This forced everyone behind me to have to bridge a bit of a gap. I also paused through the corners to force a bit of effort for the bunch to stay together when accelerating out of the corners.

After two and a bit laps, I moved back to position 6 or 7th to rest.

Then, when turning onto the back straight, the guy next to me wobbled a bit, and looked down at his bike, looking for a problem. Not sure what happened, but between me slow pedalling through the corner, and him looking down, a gap of 7 or 8 metres opened in front of us. Time to break it up a bit. I jumped. Passed the leaders, and they all jumped too. The idea wasn’t necessarily to make a break, but with a gap between the leaders and the second half of the pack, I thought we might be able to break the pack in two. Not many wanted to work too hard, and I didn’t want to sacrifice myself, so after about 1km, we were all back together. I moved back to 6 or 7th again. No break, but make them work I say.

A lap later, around the same spot, another guy jumped and made a 10m break. I paused to see if he was going to continue, he was, so I jumped also, now with a 20m break to make. I made sure not to drag any one with me. We shared the lead, and after about 1km, I glanced to see another had joined us. As he passed me, I glanced behind again happy to see no one else had come with him, but we only had a 40m gap to the pack. We continued to work together for another 2km rotating well, but I was starting to feel the pinch and started to delay my rotation to attempt to catch my breath. The pack was still only 40 or 50m behind, so my fellow break-ies decided to pack it in and retreat back into the pack. On the plus side, the main pack lost a few riders in the chase, so it wasn’t a total waste.

Lesson 1. If I’m going to make a break, do less work leading up to it, otherwise it will and has cost me. This is going to be a hard lesson to learn. I’ve only been racing for 3 months, and have years of pack training where everyone continually takes their turn.

Lesson 2. Work on fitness.

Back together, I moved back to 6 or 7th again and waited for the final sprint. Unfortunately with 2km to go, we were caught by a collection of A and B graders who were overtaking each other, and then us. These guys still had another lap to go, so while faster as they passed us, we soon started to come back as our final stages heated up. Some of us started to tail the other grades. Too many bikes, a bit messy, especially given we were on public roads. A few of our grade, pulled back. I decided to do the same, and finished somewhere around 8th.

Aside from the disappointing finish, I really enjoyed a race which was a little different from the norm. Talking to one of the work horses after the race, he was one of two responsible for bringing the pack back to our breakaway. He's a strong rider for our grade, and I think if it wasn't for him, we may have escaped. Without spelling anything out, the seed has been planted for the following weeks. I suspect that the 6 week spell of no breakaways has been broken, and will continue to be broken. I look forward to next week, although rumour has it that this course has a hill or two. At 83kg on a bike that has minimal carbon, hills are not what I call fun.

thekiwi said:

Do you hold the same rationale when there are hill races? That the non climbers should squeal "not fair" when the whippets attack the hill after sitting in for the flat periods prior?

Im not a sprinter by any stretch of the imagination, but I dont consider it a "right" that having lead most of the bunch Im in some way entitled to take the win. Cyclist are made up of many strengths: Hill Climbers, Sprinters, Time Trialists etc. Each class of rider is as equally valid/skilled as the other.

As a climber my focus must be to nullify the strengths of those around me. That means attacking the hills and making it hurt real bad. If it means surging for 2 mins in a near all out sprint at halfway, then thats what it takes. Sometimes it repeated surges for 20secs every min to destroy their legs and hope I recover quicker, otherwise I will always get swamped at the finish.

The notion that you could use a legal approach to favour a certain rider I find just ludicrous. Maybe it is something about the Downunder approach, but seriously whilst we hate with a passion any rider who sits in, or who bridges across and brings this bunch with them, they are all valid tactics and ones which you have to try and counter.

Since shifting from running to cycling Ive been amazed at how tactical cycling is. If you dont like it, suggest you take up running. 🙂

I notice you misunderstood my post. No problem...but try reading my posts again and you will understand that we are on the same side. And no, I don't like running so I won't be taking it up...🙂

Bigbananabike said:

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You say in a flat race you sit in and win - why don't you do some more work in the lead up to the sprint? Aim for a faster time overall instead of just sitting in.
The Tour de France is a completely different kettle of fish to club and general individual races(here at least).
Stop listening to the "pencil necked geeks" and take your own advice - shut up and race!

Why would I care about a faster time? I could care less about our time as long as I get the W. If you race a 60 minute criterium your time is 60 minutes....if you have a 250 meter sprint you don't have much choice? 😄 🙂

Bigbananabike said:

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You say in a flat race you sit in and win - why don't you do some more work in the lead up to the sprint? Aim for a faster time overall instead of just sitting in.
The Tour de France is a completely different kettle of fish to club and general individual races(here at least).
Stop listening to the "pencil necked geeks" and take your own advice - shut up and race!

My goal is usually to win while doing the least amount of work possible. Why would you do any more work than that unless you're also trying to get a certain type of workout? The purpose of a race is to cross the line first, not to make everyone feel good.

recursive said:

My goal is usually to win while doing the least amount of work possible. Why would you do any more work than that unless you're also trying to get a certain type of workout? The purpose of a race is to cross the line first, not to make everyone feel good.

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We're a caring and sharing club.

Everybody aims(including officials) for everybody to cross the line at the same time(sometimes its a little difficult to manage - we have to use both sides of the road), and we're all given the same finishing time - from 17 year old speed punks to 90 year old grandmothers who sometimes have to do the course in their wheelchairs.

After the finish and between cups of tea and scones we have a big group hug.
I may not make the Giro de Italia team but I drive home from my "race" on Saturday afternoons with a smile on my dial that just won't quit🙂

Now that's what its really all about isn't it guys?

Bigbananabike said:

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We're a caring and sharing club.

Everybody aims(including officials) for everybody to cross the line at the same time(sometimes its a little difficult to manage - we have to use both sides of the road), and we're all given the same finishing time - from 17 year old speed punks to 90 year old grandmothers who sometimes have to do the course in their wheelchairs.

After the finish and between cups of tea and scones we have a big group hug.
I may not make the Giro de Italia team but I drive home from my "race" on Saturday afternoons with a smile on my dial that just won't quit🙂

Now that's what its really all about isn't it guys?

Sounds all nice and warm and fuzzy...but it ain't racin'...When in a "race", the goal is to win...period. End of story...