Powered Bicycles

Big Bear said:

Bleve said:

One weekend of training

Is that now a requirement for MC?

In Victoria, yes, to get your L's. In WA it used to be that you always
had to ride with an experienced rider (4 years+) or an instructor,
while on your L's. IMO, a combination of both would be good.

On 16 Dec 2006 23:35:27 GMT, "Dave Hughes" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Big Bear said:

Ideas of doing my own local area aerial photography, but lower down.

http://scenefromabove.biz

Tony's siite.
I know ther guy
A fellow RCAPA member.

My site
www.rvv.com.au
See gallery.
All my aerials are taken from Poles ;-)

Big Bear said:

RV said:

Forget iit as a legit business.

Naah, if anything, it might have become a business tool, i.e. what the
customer saw would have been interpreted data.

It as a handy tool as an addition to an aerail pic business.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

CASA killed that off.

Or youll need to do like the rest of us, ignore CASA.

For my line, I don't see how they'd know, especialy if you also use the
big boys product.

When CASA decided to regulate an aircraft you can land and take off
from any location, and carry in a case or car boot,, I think they lost
the plot.

On 2006-12-17, Bleve (aka Bruce)
was almost, but not quite, entirely unlike tea:

Quoted message said:

Big Bear said:

Bleve said:

One weekend of training

Given that motorcyclists don't do damage to other people (cf. cars),
I'd rather it if car drivers were required the weekend of training,
and motorcyclists could get away with the written test and a single on
road examination 6 months later, instead of vice-versa.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Is that now a requirement for MC?

In Victoria, yes, to get your L's. In WA it used to be that you always
had to ride with an experienced rider (4 years+) or an instructor,
while on your L's. IMO, a combination of both would be good.

A little impractical in a small town where it's hard to find another
rider, let alone experienced. Lot of car driver though. To drive a
couple of blocks to the shops.

--
TimC
As a computer, I find your faith in technology amusing.

Dave Hughes said:

Big Bear said:

Is that now a requirement for MC?

IIRC you need to do a one day course to get your motorbike learner's
certificate in NSW, and have done for 10-15 years.

OK, Mine predates that. I wonder if it has actually made a difference to
MC deaths in NSW.

Quoted message said:

It's basic roadcraft
and handling skills, and there are a few places it can be done. I never
really looked that hard, since I don't trust myself with the power:weight
ratio of a motorbike - I have enough problems with the power to weight
ratio of my pushbikes.

err, that was my problem; teating the MC like a pushbike and cart
wheeling it endo. == make a choice and since I'd bent the frame the MC went.

In aus.bicycle on Sun, 17 Dec 2006 15:00:39 +1100

Terryc said:

Dave Hughes said:

Big Bear said:

Is that now a requirement for MC?

IIRC you need to do a one day course to get your motorbike learner's
certificate in NSW, and have done for 10-15 years.

OK, Mine predates that. I wonder if it has actually made a difference to
MC deaths in NSW.

It isn't clear. see http://www.roadsafety.mccofnsw.org.au/a/33.html
which suggests that it might not have worked.

Zebee

"Big Bear" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

ray said:

The number we import is precisely Zero, because of this archaic and
idiotic regulation. So much for combatting climate change.

I prefer to think the real issue is the continued protection of already
licenced motor vehicle drivers and their wonderful non-sharing attitude
towards the road.

the only real problem that I can see with them is demonstrated knowledge
of roads rules and a clear definition of where they belong (not on the
foot path?)

I saved this email from Alan Parker from 2004 on the bfa-oz list. He was
writing about NZ but similar to here.>>Alan Parker, who has had three hip
replacements and walks with a stick,
told a conference on sustainable engineering and science in Auckland
yesterday that electrically assisted bikes were used by several million
people in China and Japan.

But in New Zealand and Australia they were stymied by rules classifying
them as mopeds that required warrants of fitness, vehicle registration
and number plates, making them uneconomic.

A Land Transport Amendment Bill now before NZ Parliament would reclassify
them as bicycles if they have motors of less than 200 watts.

But Mr Parker said 200 watts was "underpowered for New Zealand elderly
males, who are much heavier than the elderly females who make up the
majority of Japanese users". He urged MPs to allow electric bikes with
up to 500-watt motors.

If anyone disagreed, he challenged them to run tests "riding up hills
in
an urban environment [using] elderly male and female test riders - one
of whom should have osteoarthritis of the hip that restricts walking".

Electrically assisted bikes differ from motorbikes because they still
require pedalling. A small motor gives the cyclist an extra push up
hills or against the wind.

The Japanese models are designed to halve the pedalling effort
required,
and the latest versions have computer chips which fade out power
assistance at 25km/h - about the maximum speed a fit cyclist could
reach
without assistance.

Europe changed its rules two years ago to define bikes as having power
assistance of less than 250 watts and the US introduced legislation
last
year to set a limit of 750 watts.

Mr Parker said that, despite his artificial hips and arthritis in his
knees and ankles, he could still bike easily around Melbourne on a
power-assisted bike.

"You get to the time when the doctor says you have to stop driving.
This
bridges the gap," he said.

"Riding a bicycle can be less painful than walking for people with
osteoarthritis in the hips, knees or ankles. This is because the saddle
and not the legs carry the body weight."

He said a motor would also encourage younger people to cycle in hilly
cities, and would reduce carbon dioxide emissions by tempting people
out
of their cars.

The battery-powered bikes need to be recharged after 30 hours' biking.<<fb
in sydnee

Peter Signorini said:

but not intended for the disabled nor the lazy.

I meant the laws, not the vehicles.
While motor-vehicles must generally be licenced, the exceptions IN LAW
are intended for disabled, in the broad sense:

- motorised 'scooters' (gopher, shoprider etc.) which legally operate as
pedestians, and should not go faster than walking pace.
- power-assist bikes, for those who cannot pedal well. Power is limited
to 200W, about the same as a regular cyclist.

Anything more powerful must meet the same regulation as any other motor
vehicle. Seems fair to me. I would hope that mopeds are cheap and easy
to register and get a license.

Quoted message said:

It is designed to be used with a load carrying bike, and no pedalling,
no power. To my mind a very practical use of power-assist.

Looks like a great machine, but its not a push-bike. It should be legalised
as a moped, IMHO.

"Top speed can exceed 30 MPH on level ground, and 20 MPH up modest hills,"

I wish I could do that :-)

Fractal said:

But Mr Parker said 200 watts was "underpowered for New Zealand elderly
males, who are much heavier than the elderly females who make up the
majority of Japanese users". He urged MPs to allow electric bikes with
up to 500-watt motors.

Regular cyclist manage just fine with 200W legs.
But if I lived in Wellington NZ, between the headwinds and hills,
500W wouldn't seem so much.

The problem is, if you actually use 500W, that is more that 20A from
your 24V batteries, and the batteries die fast. Electric just isn't
there yet. I'd want a petrol-powered bike in Wellington.

Quoted message said:

He said a motor would also encourage younger people to cycle in hilly
cities, and would reduce carbon dioxide emissions by tempting people
out
of their cars.

Great. So how about campaigning to reduce the regulatory restrictions
on mopeds? But face it, they are not the same as bicycles.

Mike said:

The problem is, if you actually use 500W, that is more that 20A from
your 24V batteries, and the batteries die fast. Electric just isn't
there yet.

That is actually one of the problems in a nut shell. They only work with
very expensive batteries. If you use cheaper batteries, then you need to
carry about 70kg of battery weight.

The other problem is the 20km/hr speed. I'd be quite happy with
something that would assist up to 10kms/hr, but assist with anything up
to 100kg load. It is dragging stuff uphill that is the annoying thing
around here (especially when home is uphill).

Dave Hughes said:

IIRC you need to do a one day course to get your motorbike learner's
certificate in NSW, and have done for 10-15 years.

When I got mine (~8 years ago) it was two half days, then one full day for the P's. Best courses I ever did.

However, I seem to recall that the course is waived if you live in the sticks. In that case, you get the local grumpy Guzzi owner to show you some stuff, organise the L's from the local cop shop, and go buy a bike.

Cheers,

Suzy

TerryC said:

OK, Mine predates that. I wonder if it has actually made a difference
to MC deaths in NSW.

It's made a huge difference. Lots less 17 year olds killing themselves within weeks of getting their L plates.

One of the worst age groups for MC deaths now is the 40/50 year olds who haven't ridden one in decades and go and buy themselves a Harley when they have their mid-life crisis.

Cheers,

Suzy

Bleve said:

In Victoria, yes, to get your L's. In WA it used to be that you
always had to ride with an experienced rider (4 years+) or an
instructor, while on your L's.

Still the case, same for Queensland.

Theo

suzyj said:

One of the worst age groups for MC deaths now is the 40/50 year olds

Phew! Glad I'm way past that stage.

theo

In aus.bicycle on Mon, 18 Dec 2006 09:55:36 +1100

suzyj said:

TerryC said:

OK, Mine predates that. I wonder if it has actually made a

difference

Quoted message said:

to MC deaths in NSW.

It's made a huge difference. Lots less 17 year olds killing themselves
within weeks of getting their L plates.

Except the stats don't bear that out. Crashes in that group are fewer,
but the number of people in that group is smaller too, so the crash rate
per 1000 licences is steady or increasing (depending on which year set
you use)

Quoted message said:

One of the worst age groups for MC deaths now is the 40/50 year olds
who haven't ridden one in decades and go and buy themselves a Harley
when they have their mid-life crisis.

And the stats don't bear that out either. There are more of them
crashing true, but the crash increase is less than the increase in the
number of riders in that age group.

Welcome to the demographic hump.

"Young riders are involved in a high proportion of crashes relative to
their involvment in motorcycling. Riders under the age of 26 are
involved in approximately 30% of all crashes but are the registered
owners of only 10% of motorcycles in NSW. Riders aged over 40 are
involved in 25% of crashes but own some 50% of all motorcycles."

http://www.roadsafety.mccofnsw.org.au/a/38.html

Zebee

Quoted message said:

When I got mine (~8 years ago) it was two half days, then one full
day for the P's. Best courses I ever did.

I've failed the pre-L twice recently because I just couldn't make the
reflexes for the rear-brak^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^Hclutch. :/ (Having riding
instructors who prefer to harrass struggling paying students rather
than teaching them didn't help either..)

--
Chris

Quoted message said:

http://www.roadsafety.mccofnsw.org.au/a/33.html

Just OT: it mentions (only..) 62% (10k/16k) of pre-L coursetakers go
on to the pre-P training... yet from what I saw, 80-90% of all
students were dirt-bike owners, or older riders who'd lost their
licence. (Maybe it's just Newcastle..)

--
Chris

In aus.bicycle on 18 Dec 2006 17:13:18 +1100

Chris Baird said:

Quoted message said:

http://www.roadsafety.mccofnsw.org.au/a/33.html

Just OT: it mentions (only..) 62% (10k/16k) of pre-L coursetakers go
on to the pre-P training... yet from what I saw, 80-90% of all
students were dirt-bike owners, or older riders who'd lost their
licence. (Maybe it's just Newcastle..)

Country stats are very different. For one thing, most people in
Sydney don't have access to dirtbikes.

Zebee

Zebee said:

Except the stats don't bear that out. Crashes in that
group are fewer, but the number of people in that group
is smaller too, so the crash rate per 1000 licences is
steady or increasing (depending on which year set you
use)

That'd be right. I'd always been told it was a huge success. Another case of stats saying one thing at a glance, but a very different thing on close scrutiny.

Cheers,

Suzy

In aus.bicycle on Mon, 18 Dec 2006 19:38:43 +1100

suzyj said:

Zebee said:

Except the stats don't bear that out. Crashes in that
group are fewer, but the number of people in that group
is smaller too, so the crash rate per 1000 licences is
steady or increasing (depending on which year set you
use)

That'd be right. I'd always been told it was a huge success. Another
case of stats saying one thing at a glance, but a very different thing
on close scrutiny.

I always thought it was too... But it doesn't seem to be. Not clear
if it's badly taught, teaching the wrong thing, increasing confidence
without increasing skills or something else again.

Zebee