Positive Story

It wasn't a dark and stormy night when Gymmy Bob said:

And this CBT can alter the brain chemistry that is
genetically out of wack for some?

It can help the way you handle it. I know a man who's had
panic disorder since a bad drug experience in his teens and
he still gets a lot of benefit from CBT.

Vashti

It wasn't a dark and stormy night when Chris Malcolm said:

For example, someone cured of a panic disorder by aversive
therapy will end up with changed brain biochemistry.

Ugh, and in extreme cases some other problems to deal with I
can imagine! :/

Vashti - aversion toward aversive therapy and I still
get PAs 😉

"wossoyi" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> The simple fact is that there is NO clear cut
> evidence of any long

term

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> effect from the medication. If there were, with the
> millions of

people

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> taking the medication, it would have shown up to
> some extent by now. Worrying about it is, IMNSHO,
> akin to worrying about the sun going

nova

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

in a

Quoted message said:

> few billion years.

This is exactly the line that we were given by doctors
about SSRIs. People, who were being ignored by their
doctors, with their unflintching beliefs in this
"miracle" drugs were being ignored while often getting
worse. Thank goodness that SSRIs have finally been
proven to cause harm.

I remember the hell I went through with Paxil, all the
while, my doctor only wanted to raise my dossage. He
never understood that I wasn't even depressed until I
started the drug. Leave it up to a doctor to think a
teenage girl having trouble concentrating and
excessively tired (i was anemic) MUST need anti-
depressants.

I for one, don't believe doctors actually listen to
the majority of their patients... And while I have
taken ritalin and an SSRI, I would never put my own
child on it unless he or she WANTED to be on it. I
know how horrible these drugs can make you feel and I
wouldn't force my worse enemy on it. All of this needs
to be taken with a grain of salt.

So, you are a bilger who is anti-medications, but would
give a kid a

toxic

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

substance with Na+ and Cl-, eh?

Would I give a child NaCl? Yes. Would I take NaCl, yes?
Ritalin, I would leave that for the child to decide. I
think the child knows best what makes him/her feel better.

So, you would allow a five year old to decide such things. I
hope you are sterile.

Quoted message said:

"Me? I put it on my plate"

Shows how smart you are.

"wossoyi" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

So, you are a bilger who is anti-medications, but would
give a kid a

toxic

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

substance with Na+ and Cl-, eh?

Would I give a child NaCl? Yes. Would I take NaCl, yes?
Ritalin, I would leave that for the child to decide. I
think the child knows best what makes him/her feel better.

Do you allow a child to make all his/her medical decisions?
At what age is a child mature enough to do so? Buny

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> I for one, don't believe doctors actually listen to
> the majority of their patients... And while I have
> taken ritalin and an SSRI, I would never put my own
> child on it unless he or she WANTED to be on it. I
> know how horrible these drugs can make you feel and I
> wouldn't force my worse enemy on it. All of this
> needs to be taken with a grain of salt.

So, you are a bilger who is anti-medications, but would
give a kid a toxic substance with Na+ and Cl-, eh?

Would I give a child NaCl? Yes. Would I take NaCl, yes?
Ritalin, I would leave that for the child to decide. I
think the child knows best what makes him/her feel
better.

Please don't take this the wrong way...but I think only a
person who has never been a parent would say that.

Joe Parsons

I think it would depend on too many factors... But if the
child is suffering on medication, i don't know the point of
leaving them on it. Wasn't that the problem with SSRIs?
Children becoming more and more suicidal as doctors turned
a deaf ear?

-i

(wossoyi) said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > I for one, don't believe doctors actually listen to
> > the majority of their patients... And while I have
> > taken ritalin and an SSRI, I would never put my own
> > child on it unless he or she WANTED to be on it. I
> > know how horrible these drugs can make you feel and
> > I wouldn't force my worse enemy on it. All of this
> > needs to be taken with a grain of salt.
>
> So, you are a bilger who is anti-medications, but
> would give a kid a toxic substance with Na+ and Cl-
> , eh?

Would I give a child NaCl? Yes. Would I take NaCl, yes?
Ritalin, I would leave that for the child to decide. I
think the child knows best what makes him/her feel
better.

Please don't take this the wrong way...but I think only a
person who has never been a parent would say that.

Joe Parsons

I think it would depend on too many factors... But if the
child is suffering on medication, i don't know the point of
leaving them on it. Wasn't that the problem with SSRIs?
Children becoming more and more suicidal as doctors turned
a deaf ear?

No, I don't think that was the problem at all. But even if
it were, it is still the parents who have the primary and
immediate responsibility for the welfare of the child.

Over the last several years in ASAD we've seen these lurid
accounts of parents who claimed to have watched their
children turn into "zombies" and become emaciated on
Ritalin. These stories--invariably cut-and-pasted stories
provided by someone trying to sell some "all natural"
nostrum or other--were (if true) examples of parents
ignoring their responsibility for caring for their children.

But allow the children to decide what is best for him or
her? As I said: only someone who's never been a parent would
make such a statement.

Children are perfectly hedonistic creatures--and hedonism is
often at odds with one's welfare.

Joe Parsons

Quoted message said:

-i

(wossoyi) said:

Quoted message said:

No, I don't think that was the problem at all. But even
if it were, it is still the parents who have the
primary and immediate responsibility for the welfare of
the child.

Over the last several years in ASAD we've seen these
lurid accounts of parents who claimed to have watched
their children turn into "zombies" and become emaciated
on Ritalin. These stories--invariably cut-and-pasted
stories provided by someone trying to sell some "all
natural" nostrum or other--were (if true) examples of
parents ignoring their responsibility for caring for
their children.

Well, I may not be a parent, but I have taken Ritalin and I
still have a valid subscription.

Unless you are still taking the medication, your
"subscription" has expired. Since methylphenidate (Ritalin)
is a Schedule II substance, prescriptions are issued in
triplicate and are non-refillable. They expire after (IIANM)
90 days. I know they do in California.

Quoted message said:

At times, my partner also found that I did turn into a
zombie on ritalin.

This is generally an indication of a dose that is too high.

Quoted message said:

There were times when I did take several days off because
the side effects were too much or i did get a little bit
down or depressed. Now, if I had been forced to take the
medication, i think i would have equated it with torture.
No doubt, the side-effects can be minimal, but I don't like
it when parents give it to children who are clearly
suffering from paintfull side-effects on the drugs because
that's what is "Best" for the child.

Do you really think a parent would continue to administer a
medication to a child where the side effects were so dire?
Don't you think a parent would, upon observing these side
effects, report them to the physician?

Quoted message said:

And here's the all-natural alternative.

"THE" alternative?

Quoted message said:

Go for a run. It'll cost you a pair of running shoes. It
does work, my school's ADHD group has extensively discussed
it and it has worked consistently for all of us all least
to some degree, even if lowering the impact of the side-
effects of some of the meds.

acalogic.comritalin.htmOpen ↗

The benefits of regular exercise--especially regular
aerobic exercise--are well documented for ALL types of
people. But there is no denying that ADDers may derive more
benefits. We have discussed this here many times. The well-
respected Dr. Ned Hallowell (Driven to Distraction"😉 covers
this in some detail:

"...it is remarkably good therapy for ADD, both
focusing and relaxing the mind."

Furthermore, the wise, learned and compassionate Dr.
Hallowell has this to add in his "Fifty Tips on the
Management of Adult ADD:"

"Exercise vigorously and regularly....Make it something
fun so you can stick with it over the long haul, i.e.,
the rest of your life. One particular form of exercise,

What a guy!

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

But allow the children to decide what is best for him or
her? As I said: only someone who's never been a parent
would make such a statement.

Children are perfectly hedonistic creatures--and hedonism
is often at odds with one's welfare.

you might be right, but i don't think i would agree with
that 100% of the time. If i had the side-effect that I had
on ritalin as a child and had no option to take a break
from the meds, I think I would have called it torture...
That is how emotionally painfull it can get to be on
certain drugs.

Are you saying that your parents forced you to take the
medication when you were a child, even in the face of
apparently debilitating side effects?

Joe Parsons

(wossoyi) said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Well, I may not be a parent, but I have taken Ritalin
and I still have a valid subscription.

Unless you are still taking the medication, your
"subscription" has expired. Since methylphenidate
(Ritalin) is a Schedule II substance, prescriptions are
issued in triplicate and are non-refillable. They expire
after (IIANM) 90 days. I know they do in California.

What is it with you americans assuming everything online
comes from one country?

Ah. You're posting from Canada. Please accept my most
fervent apologies.

But I'm not sure that Canadian policy wrt controlled
substances is all that different from that of the U.S. I'm
certainly open to correction in that regard.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

At times, my partner also found that I did turn

Quoted message said:

into a zombie on ritalin.

This is generally an indication of a dose that is
too high.

10mg is too high?

It could be. What I said is still correct. It is also
possible that you are one of the people for whom
methylphenidate is simply not appropriate.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Do you really think a parent would continue to administer
a medication to a child where the side effects were so
dire? Don't you think a parent would, upon observing
these side effects, report them to the physician?

My progressive physician told me that I was an adult and
that I could manage my own dose as long as I didn't go over
45mg per day and kept track of it all. I know for a fact
that this is rarely allowed for children because two of my
2nd cousins are on ritalin.

It is common for adults to self-regulate their dosage.

Quoted message said:

The dose is consistent no matter what the effects. The
point is that it may not be predictable enough to call a
doctor every other day because you need step-ladder dosage.

So you *are* saying that you believe parents would continue
to administer methylphenidate to their child even in the
face of severe side effects? That does not describe any
parents that I know.

Correct dosage does not need to be adjusted from day to day.
It is typically titrated--started at a very low level and
increased gradually over time until the therapeutic level is
determined.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

you might be right, but i don't think i would agree with
that 100% of the time. If i had the side-effect that I
had on ritalin as a child and had no option to take a
break from the meds, I think I would have called it
torture... That is how emotionally painfull it can get
to be on certain drugs.

Are you saying that your parents forced you to take the
medication when you were a child, even in the face of
apparently debilitating side effects?

No i was not. But when I was put on paxil for "depression"
when i was anemic, i was constantly ignored when I said
that i was becoming depressed and suicidal, even though I
never used the word suicidal because i knew they would just
lock me up.

It sounds as though you have had a lot to deal with. I am
sorry to hear that. But at the same time, I have to wonder
whether you were communicating effectively what was going on
with you. Here you say that you complained that you were
suicidal, yet never used the word. What other word could one
use to convey that very serious state of mind?!? And if you
were not communicating what was going on, then it's possible
no one else had figured it out, and continued to administer
medication.

Quoted message said:

Two months after taking myself off the evil drug otherwise
known as paroxetine or seroxat, the withdrawal disappeared
and I felt like i'd woken up from a deep sleep.

People need to realise that no matter how much you
might want them to work, drugs don't work for everyone.
The sooner you accept that, the less pain the patient
will be in.

I doubt you'll ever see anyone here make a claim that drugs
"work for everyone." Whether you are talking about
antidepressants, stimulants or antibiotics, there are times
when they are appropriate and useful and times when they
are not. The only issue I am addressing is your earlier
statement that "the child knows best what makes him/her
feel better." It's not a belief that any responsible parent
would hold.

Joe Parsons

Quoted message said:

No, I don't think that was the problem at all. But even if
it were, it is still the parents who have the primary and
immediate responsibility for the welfare of the child.

Over the last several years in ASAD we've seen these lurid
accounts of parents who claimed to have watched their
children turn into "zombies" and become emaciated on
Ritalin. These stories--invariably cut-and-pasted stories
provided by someone trying to sell some "all natural"
nostrum or other--were (if true) examples of parents
ignoring their responsibility for caring for their
children.

Well, I may not be a parent, but I have taken Ritalin and I
still have a valid subscription. At times, my partner also
found that I did turn into a zombie on ritalin. There were
times when I did take several days off because the side
effects were too much or i did get a little bit down or
depressed. Now, if I had been forced to take the medication,
i think i would have equated it with torture. No doubt, the
side-effects can be minimal, but I don't like it when
parents give it to children who are clearly suffering from
paintfull side-effects on the drugs because that's what is
"Best" for the child.

And here's the all-natural alternative. Go for a run. It'll
cost you a pair of running shoes. It does work, my school's
ADHD group has extensively discussed it and it has worked
consistently for all of us all least to some degree, even if
lowering the impact of the side-effects of some of the meds.

acalogic.comritalin.htmOpen ↗

Quoted message said:

But allow the children to decide what is best for him or
her? As I said: only someone who's never been a parent
would make such a statement.

Children are perfectly hedonistic creatures--and hedonism
is often at odds with one's welfare.

you might be right, but i don't think i would agree with
that 100% of the time. If i had the side-effect that I had
on ritalin as a child and had no option to take a break from
the meds, I think I would have called it torture... That is
how emotionally painfull it can get to be on certain drugs.

-i

"wossoyi" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > I for one, don't believe doctors actually listen to
> > the majority of their patients... And while I have
> > taken ritalin and an SSRI, I

would

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > never put my own child on it unless he or she
> > WANTED to be on it.

I

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > know how horrible these drugs can make you feel and
> > I wouldn't

force

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > my worse enemy on it. All of this needs to be taken
> > with a grain

of

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > salt.
>
> So, you are a bilger who is anti-medications, but
> would give a kid a

toxic

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> substance with Na+ and Cl-, eh?

Would I give a child NaCl? Yes. Would I take NaCl, yes?
Ritalin, I would leave that for the child to decide. I
think the child knows best what makes him/her feel
better.

Please don't take this the wrong way...but I think only
a person who has

never

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

been a parent would say that.

Joe Parsons

I think it would depend on too many factors... But if the
child is suffering on medication, i don't know the point
of leaving them on it.

That was not the point of the disucssion. If a medication is
not working, and the parent can assess that, then it should
be discontinued and changed to one that will.

Quoted message said:

Wasn't that the problem with SSRIs? Children becoming
more and more suicidal as doctors turned a deaf ear?

The problem was that thee *seemed* to be more suicides, but,
when you are talking about kids with major depression, who
knows if the disease or the medication is the cause. How
many suicides have been prevented by SSRIs? At least we know
that Prozac is safe and effective for kids.

Did anyone ever think that if you could get your 5 year old
to "go for a run" and focus long enough to get his/her shoes
on, there wouldn't be a problem with ADHD?

"Joe Parsons" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On 7 Jun 2004 23:43:19 -0700, [email hidden]

(wossoyi) said:

Quoted message said:

No, I don't think that was the problem at all. But even
if it were, it

is still

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the parents who have the primary and immediate
responsibility for the

welfare of

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the child.

Over the last several years in ASAD we've seen these
lurid accounts of

parents

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

who claimed to have watched their children turn into
"zombies" and

become

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

emaciated on Ritalin. These stories--invariably cut-and-
pasted stories

provided

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

by someone trying to sell some "all natural" nostrum or
other--were (if

true)

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

examples of parents ignoring their responsibility for
caring for their

children.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Well, I may not be a parent, but I have taken Ritalin and
I still have a valid subscription.

Unless you are still taking the medication, your
"subscription" has

expired.

Quoted message said:

Since methylphenidate (Ritalin) is a Schedule II
substance, prescriptions

are

Quoted message said:

issued in triplicate and are non-refillable. They expire
after (IIANM) 90

days.

Quoted message said:

I know they do in California.

Quoted message said:

At times, my partner also found that I did turn into a
zombie on ritalin.

This is generally an indication of a dose that is
too high.

Quoted message said:

There were times when I did take several days off because
the side effects were too much or i did get a little bit
down or depressed. Now, if I had been forced to take the
medication, i think i would have equated it with torture.
No doubt, the side-effects can be minimal, but I don't
like it when parents give it to children who are clearly
suffering from paintfull side-effects on the drugs
because that's what is "Best" for the child.

Do you really think a parent would continue to administer
a medication to

a

Quoted message said:

child where the side effects were so dire? Don't you think
a parent

would, upon

Quoted message said:

observing these side effects, report them to the
physician?

Quoted message said:

And here's the all-natural alternative.

"THE" alternative?

Quoted message said:

Go for a run. It'll cost you a pair of running shoes. It
does work, my school's ADHD group has extensively
discussed it and it has worked consistently for all of us
all least to some degree, even if lowering the impact of
the side-effects of some of the meds.

acalogic.comritalin.htmOpen ↗

The benefits of regular exercise--especially regular
aerobic exercise--are

well

Quoted message said:

documented for ALL types of people. But there is no
denying that ADDers

may

Quoted message said:

derive more benefits. We have discussed this here many
times. The well-respected Dr. Ned Hallowell (Driven to
Distraction"😉 covers this in

some

Quoted message said:

detail:

"...it is remarkably good therapy for ADD,
both focusing and relaxing the mind."

Furthermore, the wise, learned and compassionate Dr.
Hallowell has this to

add

Quoted message said:

in his "Fifty Tips on the Management of Adult ADD:"

"Exercise vigorously and regularly....Make it something
fun so you can stick with it over the long haul, i.e.,
the rest of your life. One particular form of exercise,

Quoted message said:

What a guy!

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

But allow the children to decide what is best for him
or her? As I

said: only

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

someone who's never been a parent would make such a
statement.

Children are perfectly hedonistic creatures--and
hedonism is often at

odds with

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

one's welfare.

you might be right, but i don't think i would agree with
that 100% of the time. If i had the side-effect that I
had on ritalin as a child and had no option to take a
break from the meds, I think I would have called it
torture... That is how emotionally painfull it can get to
be on certain drugs.

Are you saying that your parents forced you to take the
medication when

you were

Quoted message said:

a child, even in the face of apparently debilitating side
effects?

Joe Parsons

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Well, I may not be a parent, but I have taken Ritalin and
I still have a valid subscription.

Unless you are still taking the medication, your
"subscription" has expired. Since methylphenidate
(Ritalin) is a Schedule II substance, prescriptions are
issued in triplicate and are non-refillable. They expire
after (IIANM) 90 days. I know they do in California.

What is it with you americans assuming everything online
comes from one country?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

At times, my partner also found that I did turn into a
zombie on ritalin.

This is generally an indication of a dose that is
too high.

10mg is too high?

Quoted message said:

Do you really think a parent would continue to administer
a medication to a child where the side effects were so
dire? Don't you think a parent would, upon observing these
side effects, report them to the physician?

My progressive physician told me that I was an adult and
that I could manage my own dose as long as I didn't go over
45mg per day and kept track of it all. I know for a fact
that this is rarely allowed for children because two of my
2nd cousins are on ritalin. The dose is consistent no matter
what the effects. The point is that it may not be
predictable enough to call a doctor every other day because
you need step-ladder dosage.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

you might be right, but i don't think i would agree with
that 100% of the time. If i had the side-effect that I
had on ritalin as a child and had no option to take a
break from the meds, I think I would have called it
torture... That is how emotionally painfull it can get to
be on certain drugs.

Are you saying that your parents forced you to take the
medication when you were a child, even in the face of
apparently debilitating side effects?

No i was not. But when I was put on paxil for "depression"
when i was anemic, i was constantly ignored when I said that
i was becoming depressed and suicidal, even though I never
used the word suicidal because i knew they would just lock
me up. Two months after taking myself off the evil drug
otherwise known as paroxetine or seroxat, the withdrawal
disappeared and I felt like i'd woken up from a deep sleep.

People need to realise that no matter how much you might
want them to work, drugs don't work for everyone. The sooner
you accept that, the less pain the patient will be in.

-i

Quoted message said:

It wasn't a dark and stormy night when wossoyi said:

I think it would depend on too many factors... But if
the child is suffering on medication, i don't know the
point of leaving them on it. Wasn't that the problem
with SSRIs? Children becoming more and more suicidal as
doctors turned a deaf ear?

The problem with SSRIs is that when they start working the
patient gets more energy *before* their mood improves. A
good doc will explain how the med works and what to look
out for such as risk taking behaviours and increased
thoughts of suicide. A good doc would also see the patient
several times to asses how they're doing. Personally I'd
prefer that GPs didn't prescribe them and referred
patients to a psychiatrist.

My experience showed me a profession that more likely than
not is completely full of itself. I wasn't even given a
routine blood test that would have shown I was anemic and
not "depressed." However, stupidly, I put my trust in
doctors and went ahead with drugs that more than one doctor
seemed to be pushing.

As well, if the doctor had bothered to talk to me, maybe she
would have realised that the medication was making me more
tired and more depressed than anything else. The depression
I felt on medication is about a million times worse than
anything else I could possibly imagine. I think i would
rather commit suicide if i were ever forced on SSRIs, that's
how painfull it was for me and i would do anything not to go
through that again.

-i

In alt.support.attn-deficit Randor said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> I know they do in California.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

What is it with you americans assuming everything
online comes from one country?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

We invented it.

Quoted message said:

You invented what?

Claiming the USA invented everything worthwhile.

--
Chris Malcolm [email hidden] +44 (0)131 651 3445
DoD #205 IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings,
Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK ["]http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]

In alt.support.attn-deficit M.a.r.k P.r.o.b.e.r.t-June 9 said:

"Randor" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:tCLxc.7884$8R6.1506@clgrps12...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > I know they do in California.
>
> What is it with you americans assuming everything
> online comes from one country?

We invented it.

You invented what?

Quoted message said:

'online'

Quoted message said:

IOW, the internet, usenet and the WWW.

That's exactly what I mean about Americans thinking they
invented everything! The WWW was invented by Tim Berners
Lee, an Englishman, a graduate of Oxford, while working for
CERN in Geneva. They think they invented the computer and
democracy too.

--
Chris Malcolm [email hidden] +44 (0)131 651 3445
DoD #205 IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings,
Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK ["]http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]

Vashti said:

It wasn't a dark and stormy night when wossoyi said:

I think it would depend on too many factors... But if
the child is suffering on medication, i don't know the
point of leaving them on it. Wasn't that the problem
with SSRIs? Children becoming more and more suicidal as
doctors turned a deaf ear?

The problem with SSRIs is that when they start working the
patient gets more energy *before* their mood improves. A
good doc will explain how the med works and what to look
out for such as risk taking behaviours and increased
thoughts of suicide.

Yep. They have known this for years.

When they prescribe the SSRI's, same as a shrink will do,
the only purpose left for the shrink is to convince the
patient it isn't a personal failure to take the medication.
Most of the therapy isn't necessary anymore.

These words were from the last therapist I talked to.

"Vashti" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

It wasn't a dark and stormy night when wossoyi said:

I think it would depend on too many factors... But if
the child is suffering on medication, i don't know the
point of leaving them on it. Wasn't that the problem
with SSRIs? Children becoming more and more suicidal as
doctors turned a deaf ear?

The problem with SSRIs is that when they start working the
patient gets more energy *before* their mood improves. A
good doc will explain how the med works and what to look
out for such as risk taking behaviours and increased
thoughts of suicide. A good doc would also see the patient
several times to asses how they're doing. Personally I'd
prefer that GPs didn't prescribe them and referred
patients to a psychiatrist.

Vashti

That would be a good idea, however, you would then have to
"go for a run" so he could tie them.

Then, you would have to "go for a run" so he could put
his pants on.

Then you would have to "go for a run" do he could could put
his shirt on.

Then you would have to "go for a run"......

"Gymmy Bob" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

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Did anyone ever think that if you could get your 5 year
old to "go for a run" and focus long enough to get his/her
shoes on, there wouldn't be a problem with ADHD?

"Joe Parsons" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On 7 Jun 2004 23:43:19 -0700, [email hidden]

(wossoyi) said:

> No, I don't think that was the problem at all. But
> even if it were,

it

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is still

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> the parents who have the primary and immediate
> responsibility for the

welfare of

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> the child.
>
> Over the last several years in ASAD we've seen these
> lurid accounts

of

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parents

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> who claimed to have watched their children turn into
> "zombies" and

become

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> emaciated on Ritalin. These stories--invariably cut-and-
> pasted

stories

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provided

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> by someone trying to sell some "all natural" nostrum
> or other--were

(if

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true)

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> examples of parents ignoring their responsibility for
> caring for

their

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children.

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Well, I may not be a parent, but I have taken Ritalin
and I still have a valid subscription.

Unless you are still taking the medication, your
"subscription" has

expired.

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Since methylphenidate (Ritalin) is a Schedule II
substance,

prescriptions

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are

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issued in triplicate and are non-refillable. They expire
after (IIANM)

90

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days.

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I know they do in California.

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At times, my partner also found that I did turn into a
zombie on ritalin.

This is generally an indication of a dose that is
too high.

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There were times when I did take several days off
because the side effects were too much or i did get a
little bit down or depressed. Now, if I had been forced
to take the medication, i think i would have equated it
with torture. No doubt, the side-effects can be
minimal, but I don't like it when parents give it to
children who are clearly suffering from paintfull side-
effects on the drugs because that's what is "Best" for
the child.

Do you really think a parent would continue to
administer a medication

to

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a

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child where the side effects were so dire? Don't you
think a parent

would, upon

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observing these side effects, report them to the
physician?

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And here's the all-natural alternative.

"THE" alternative?

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Go for a run. It'll cost you a pair of running shoes.
It does work, my school's ADHD group has extensively
discussed it and it has worked consistently for all of
us all least to some degree, even if lowering the
impact of the side-effects of some of the meds.

acalogic.comritalin.htmOpen ↗

The benefits of regular exercise--especially regular
aerobic

exercise--are

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well

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documented for ALL types of people. But there is no
denying that ADDers

may

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derive more benefits. We have discussed this here many
times. The well-respected Dr. Ned Hallowell (Driven to
Distraction"😉 covers this in

some

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detail:

"...it is remarkably good therapy for ADD,
both focusing and relaxing the mind."

Furthermore, the wise, learned and compassionate Dr.
Hallowell has this

to

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add

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in his "Fifty Tips on the Management of Adult ADD:"

"Exercise vigorously and regularly....Make it something
fun so you can stick with it over the long haul, i.e.,
the rest of your life. One particular form of exercise,

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What a guy!

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> But allow the children to decide what is best for him
> or her? As I

said: only

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> someone who's never been a parent would make such a
> statement.
>
> Children are perfectly hedonistic creatures--and
> hedonism is often at

odds with

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> one's welfare.

you might be right, but i don't think i would agree
with that 100% of the time. If i had the side-effect
that I had on ritalin as a child and had no option to
take a break from the meds, I think I would have called
it torture... That is how emotionally painfull it can
get to be on certain drugs.

Are you saying that your parents forced you to take the
medication when

you were

Quoted message said:

a child, even in the face of apparently debilitating
side effects?

Joe Parsons

"wossoyi" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

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Well, I may not be a parent, but I have taken Ritalin
and I still have a valid subscription.

Unless you are still taking the medication, your
"subscription" has

expired.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Since methylphenidate (Ritalin) is a Schedule II
substance,

prescriptions are

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

issued in triplicate and are non-refillable. They expire
after (IIANM)

90 days.

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I know they do in California.

What is it with you americans assuming everything online
comes from one country?

We invented it.

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At times, my partner also found that I did turn into a
zombie on ritalin.

This is generally an indication of a dose that is
too high.

10mg is too high?

Yes, it could be, depending on the individual. Doseage is
very individualized, and, the effect can be altered by
ingesting other chemicals.

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Do you really think a parent would continue to
administer a medication

to a

Quoted message said:

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child where the side effects were so dire? Don't you
think a parent

would, upon

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observing these side effects, report them to the
physician?

My progressive physician told me that I was an adult and
that I could manage my own dose as long as I didn't go
over 45mg per day and kept track of it all. I know for a
fact that this is rarely allowed for children because two
of my 2nd cousins are on ritalin. The dose is consistent
no matter what the effects. The point is that it may not
be predictable enough to call a doctor every other day
because you need step-ladder dosage.

The long acting meds do not seem to have this problem.

Quoted message said:

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you might be right, but i don't think i would agree
with that 100% of the time. If i had the side-effect
that I had on ritalin as a child and had no option to
take a break from the meds, I think I would have called
it torture... That is how emotionally painfull it can
get to be on certain drugs.

Are you saying that your parents forced you to take the
medication when

you were

Quoted message said:

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a child, even in the face of apparently debilitating
side effects?

No i was not. But when I was put on paxil for "depression"
when i was anemic, i was constantly ignored when I said
that i was becoming depressed and suicidal, even though I
never used the word suicidal because i knew they would
just lock me up. Two months after taking myself off the
evil drug otherwise known as paroxetine or seroxat, the
withdrawal disappeared and I felt like i'd woken up from a
deep sleep.

Misdiagnosis can cause that.

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People need to realise that no matter how much you
might want them to work, drugs don't work for everyone.
The sooner you accept that, the less pain the patient
will be in.

No one every claimed that. IOW, it is a strawman point.

"wossoyi" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

It wasn't a dark and stormy night when wossoyi said:

I think it would depend on too many factors... But if
the child is suffering on medication, i don't know the
point of leaving them on it. Wasn't that the problem
with SSRIs? Children becoming more and more suicidal
as doctors turned a deaf ear?

The problem with SSRIs is that when they start working
the patient gets more energy *before* their mood
improves. A good doc will explain how the med works and
what to look out for such as risk taking behaviours and
increased thoughts of suicide. A good doc would also see
the patient several times to asses how they're doing.
Personally I'd prefer that GPs didn't prescribe them and
referred patients to a psychiatrist.

My experience showed me a profession that more likely than
not is completely full of itself. I wasn't even given a
routine blood test that would have shown I was anemic and
not "depressed." However, stupidly, I put my trust in
doctors and went ahead with drugs that more than one
doctor seemed to be pushing.

As well, if the doctor had bothered to talk to me, maybe
she would have realised that the medication was making me
more tired and more depressed than anything else. The
depression I felt on medication is about a million times
worse than anything else I could possibly imagine. I think
i would rather commit suicide if i were ever forced on
SSRIs, that's how painfull it was for me and i would do
anything not to go through that again.

I am sorry this has happened to you...please realise,
though, that there are many here who were only diagnosed
after months of testing (such as the extensive bloodwork you
mentioned) for other possible things before ADHD was
determined....ADHD can be diagnosed only after ruling out
other possibilities.

Buny