Petition

cupra said:

Jim Ley said:

Quoted message said:

Already mentioned - the 'rat run' effect.

What Rat Run effect? The point of being able to price any road - is
that what are currently used as rat runs with expensive traffic
calming measures can be priced extremely high (but not for people who
start or end a journey near there, only for mid-journeys)

Jim.

So a highly priced rat-run becomes less used (good), while the traffic
diverts to a cheaper (previously quiet) route (bad) - usage is monitored
leading to it becoming highly priced, so the traffic diverts to.... and so
on.

You must live in an interesting part of the country where there are so
many options for each journey.

Jim.

Jim Ley said:

cupra said:

Jim Ley said:

> Already mentioned - the 'rat run' effect.

What Rat Run effect? The point of being able to price any road - is
that what are currently used as rat runs with expensive traffic
calming measures can be priced extremely high (but not for people
who start or end a journey near there, only for mid-journeys)

Jim.

So a highly priced rat-run becomes less used (good), while the
traffic diverts to a cheaper (previously quiet) route (bad) - usage
is monitored leading to it becoming highly priced, so the traffic
diverts to.... and so on.

You must live in an interesting part of the country where there are so
many options for each journey.

Jim.

I don't, but I have - it's called London....

Jim Ley said:

That would of course depend on the pricing structure - there is no
reason that a pricing structure which didn't penalise local journeys
in the above situation couldn't be made. Starting/ending within the
town in question priced differently to driving through.

Maybe it would stop all the cheapskates who travel South on the A48 to
avoid the Severn Bridge Toll...

[email hidden] (Jim Ley) wrote in news:45a4d49f.611206046
@news.individual.net:

Quoted message said:

You must live in an interesting part of the country where there are so
many options for each journey.

Most of us live in interesting parts of the country with so many options
for each journey. FWIW, one of my hobbies is to drive or ride previously
undiscovered roads near my home. I've been doing this for decades and I
still find new roads most outings. I'm not talking about residential
streets here - I'm talking about country roads that go somewhere and most
of which could be used as alternative routes if road pricing is
implemented. I suspect that the same situation exists outside most towns
and cities but unless you actively looked for them you wouldn't even know
such roads existed.

Will Cove said:

[email hidden] (Jim Ley) wrote in news:45a4ce29.609551843
@news.individual.net:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

It might also displace a lot of motor traffic onto the minor roads that
we like to use.

Why?

That's the point of the road pricing system using GPS so every road is
priced, rather than just having toll main roads.

The point is to encourage road users away from the most congested
routes/times. Inevitably, it will displace traffic from the £1.34 per mile
motorway or A-road onto the cheaper-to-use minor roads. Those nice, almost
traffic-free, minor roads that form most of the national cycle network in
my neck of the woods will become rat-runs of the worst kind.

Why would minor roads be priced cheaply? If the idea is to reduce
journeys at peak times, then all peak time prices would be high, not
just motorways. Motorways are also not the big bottlenecks in the
system, so I don't understand why people think it would be those that
are the high priced places and not the towns.

Jim.

Jim Ley said:

Will Cove said:

[email hidden] (Jim Ley) wrote in news:45a4ce29.609551843
@news.individual.net:

Quoted message said:

> It might also displace a lot of motor traffic onto the minor roads
> that we like to use.

Why?

That's the point of the road pricing system using GPS so every road
is priced, rather than just having toll main roads.

The point is to encourage road users away from the most congested
routes/times. Inevitably, it will displace traffic from the £1.34
per mile motorway or A-road onto the cheaper-to-use minor roads.
Those nice, almost traffic-free, minor roads that form most of the
national cycle network in my neck of the woods will become rat-runs
of the worst kind.

Why would minor roads be priced cheaply? If the idea is to reduce
journeys at peak times, then all peak time prices would be high, not
just motorways. Motorways are also not the big bottlenecks in the
system, so I don't understand why people think it would be those that
are the high priced places and not the towns.

Jim.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4610755.stm

Quotes

"A satellite tracking system would be used to enforce the toll, with prices
varying from 2p per mile for driving on a quiet road out of the rush hour to
£1.34 for motorways at peak times. "

I'd like to see the source for that though...

Will Cove said:

[email hidden] (Jim Ley) wrote in news:45a4d49f.611206046
@news.individual.net:

Quoted message said:

You must live in an interesting part of the country where there are so
many options for each journey.

Most of us live in interesting parts of the country with so many options
for each journey. FWIW, one of my hobbies is to drive or ride previously
undiscovered roads near my home. I've been doing this for decades and I
still find new roads most outings. I'm not talking about residential
streets here - I'm talking about country roads that go somewhere and most
of which could be used as alternative routes if road pricing is
implemented. I suspect that the same situation exists outside most towns
and cities but unless you actively looked for them you wouldn't even know
such roads existed.

I know of lots of such roads, but I don't see any reason why they
would be priced differently - the idea of road pricing is to reduce
journeys between A and B, that is not achieved by pricing the main
road differently from alternative routes, the main road would be
priced lower, as that's the one they want people to go on - it's why
rat runs see so much traffic calming, and deliberate removal of
road-signs.

Jim.

Jim Ley said:

Will Cove said:

[email hidden] (Jim Ley) wrote in news:45a4d49f.611206046
@news.individual.net:

Quoted message said:

You must live in an interesting part of the country where there are
so many options for each journey.

Most of us live in interesting parts of the country with so many
options for each journey. FWIW, one of my hobbies is to drive or
ride previously undiscovered roads near my home. I've been doing
this for decades and I still find new roads most outings. I'm not
talking about residential streets here - I'm talking about country
roads that go somewhere and most of which could be used as
alternative routes if road pricing is implemented. I suspect that
the same situation exists outside most towns and cities but unless
you actively looked for them you wouldn't even know such roads
existed.

I know of lots of such roads, but I don't see any reason why they
would be priced differently - the idea of road pricing is to reduce
journeys between A and B, that is not achieved by pricing the main
road differently from alternative routes, the main road would be
priced lower, as that's the one they want people to go on - it's why
rat runs see so much traffic calming, and deliberate removal of
road-signs.

Jim.

That doesn't *seem* to be the case - the govt info appears to suggest
different pricing structures based upon the road type, with Motorways being
most expensive.

There are two quite distinct issues here - civil liberties and taxation.
Objecting to 'them' keeping tabs on you at all times is one thing - and a
perfectly valid gripe, I would've thought. But the tax is a whole nother
issue, and as far as I'm concerned, making the polluter pay is utlimately
the only realistic approach to the whole environmental issue, and absolutely
to be welcomed. Airlines next, I'd say...
"elyob" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Join up, you buggers 😉

"
The government's proposal to introduce road pricing will mean you having
to purchase a tracking device for your car and paying a monthly bill to
use it.
The tracking device will cost about £200 and in a recent study by the BBC,
the lowest monthly bill was £28 for a rural florist and £194 for a
delivery driver.
A non working Mum who used the car to take the kids to school paid £86 in
one month.

On top of this massive increase in tax, you will be tracked. Somebody will
know where you are at all times.

They will also know how fast you have been going, so even if you
accidentally creep over a speed limit you can expect a NIP with your
monthly bill.

If you care about our freedoms and stopping the constant bashing of the
car driver, please sign the petition on No 10's new website.

http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/traveltax/

Please pass this on to anyone who owns a car/motorcycle. It affects them.

"

[email hidden] (Jim Ley) wrote in news:45a4d649.611632281
@news.individual.net:

Quoted message said:

Why would minor roads be priced cheaply? If the idea is to reduce
journeys at peak times, then all peak time prices would be high, not
just motorways. Motorways are also not the big bottlenecks in the
system, so I don't understand why people think it would be those that
are the high priced places and not the towns.

Ah! an urbanite! I'm considering the routes between conurbations and
suspect that you're not thinking of minor enough roads. I'm talking about
the declassified roads (typically single track) that make up the majority
of extra-urban road-miles. Initially, I suspect these will be priced at
tuppence a mile.

For example, consider the communting route between Tavistock and Plymouth.
If road pricing makes the A386 expensive, traffic will divert over the
moors and so conflict with cyclists on the on-road segment at the northern
end of the Plym Valley Cycleway.

The "9-to-5" culture means that most cannot reschedule their commutes -
they can only reroute. So there will be no significant reduction of
journeys at peak times. Traffic will merely shift from one route to
another.

However, even in towns you would have the rat-run problem. For example,
initially I suspect that the current, congested through-routes would be
heavily priced but that the residential streets that run parallel would
not. I also suspect that in a road-priced environment, motorists will look
for ways to cut their costs and will soon discover that "Acacia Avenue",
which runs parallel to the main road costs less both in terms of time and
money. So even if you do all your cycling in town road pricing will have a
negative effect except (possibly) on main roads.

cupra said:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4610755.stm

Quotes

"A satellite tracking system would be used to enforce the toll, with prices
varying from 2p per mile for driving on a quiet road out of the rush hour to
£1.34 for motorways at peak times. "

I'd like to see the source for that though...

The Times reported the same motorway figure like this[1]:

"Congestion on motorways and A-roads would reduce by 34 per cent if
charges of up to £1.34 a mile were introduced, according to a study
published by the Department for Transport in 2004."

[1] http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-2413006,00.html

--
Matt B

in message <[email hidden]>, elyob

(') said:

Join up, you buggers 😉

"
The government's proposal to introduce road pricing will mean you having
to purchase a tracking device for your car and paying a monthly bill to
use it. The tracking device will cost about £200 and in a recent study
by the BBC, the lowest monthly bill was £28 for a rural florist and
£194 for a delivery driver.
A non working Mum who used the car to take the kids to school paid £86
in one month.

Frankly, I want to see this scheme introduced as soon as possible. How do I
set up a petition to get it expedited?

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

I'm fed up with Life 1.0. I never liked it much and now it's getting
me down. I think I'll upgrade to MSLife 97 -- you know, the one that
comes in a flash new box and within weeks you're crawling with bugs.

in message <[email hidden]>, cupra

(') said:

Marcus Red said:

elyob said:

Join up, you buggers 😉

"
The government's proposal to introduce road pricing

[snipped]

Quoted message said:

You seem to have mistaken this group for a car-based one
k-f'd

So cars shifting from expensive Motorways to 'cheaper' local routes
wouldn't impact on cyclists?

They would not be 'cheaper' local routes. They'd be 'more expensive' local
routes, if the traffic switched to them. If you don't understand that, you
don't understand how the proposed scheme works: it tracks congestion, and
charges dynamically.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
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M- !d- PS++ PE-- Y+ PGP !t 5? X+ !R b++ !DI D G- e++ h*(-) r++ y+++
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------

in message <[email hidden]>, cupra

(') said:

Jim Ley said:

cupra said:

Marcus Red wrote:
> elyob wrote:
>> Join up, you buggers 😉
>>
>> "
>> The government's proposal to introduce road pricing
>
> [snipped]
>>
> You seem to have mistaken this group for a car-based one
> k-f'd

So cars shifting from expensive Motorways to 'cheaper' local routes
wouldn't impact on cyclists?

Why would motorways be expensive? They've got the most capacity, not
the least.

That's why they'll charge most at peak times, surely?

No. The charge is based on congestion. If the motorway has more capacity,
it will be less congested. If traffic diverts onto local roads, they'll be
more congested. Under almost all circumstances, the motorway will be
cheaper.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

[ This .sig intentionally left blank ]

in message <[email hidden]>, cupra

(') said:

Jim Ley said:

cupra said:

Jim Ley wrote:
>> So cars shifting from expensive Motorways to 'cheaper' local routes
>> wouldn't impact on cyclists?
>
> Why would motorways be expensive? They've got the most capacity,
> not the least.
>
> Jim.

That's why they'll charge most at peak times, surely?

Yes, and any road which is _busy_ will be charged highly, so people
won't be able to go to a local route at peak time, because it will
busy...

= more rat running?

No, less. That's the whole point. One car goes down a rat run, he gets a
cheap ride. A hundred cars do, and every single one of them gets
clobbered. As you don't know whether 99 other silly buggers will follow
you, you avoid rat runs.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; If you're doing this for fun, do what seems fun. If you're
;; doing it for money, stop now.
;; Rainer Deyke

in message <[email hidden]>, Paul Boyd

('usenet.dont.work@plusnet') said:

Marcus Red said the following on 10/01/2007 09:00:

Quoted message said:

You seem to have mistaken this group for a car-based one
k-f'd

Oddly enough, being a cyclist doesn't exclude you from also owning a car
if you so wish. Obviously a foreign concept to you.

I own a car. I think this proposal is greatly in the interests of most
motorists - certainly in my interests as a motorist. It isn't just as a
cyclist I seriously suggest a counter-petition.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

A message from our sponsor: This site is now in free fall

Matt B said the following on 10/01/2007 13:05:

Quoted message said:

The Times reported the same motorway figure like this[1]:

"Congestion on motorways and A-roads would reduce by 34 per cent if
charges of up to £1.34 a mile were introduced, according to a study
published by the Department for Transport in 2004."

So if we work on the basis that people still need to get from A to B,
and that there will still be no adequate public transport
infrastructure, where will that 34% of congestion end up? On other
roads, some of which we like to cycle on.

Which is partly why cyclists (including non-driving cyclists) might like
to consider signing the petition.

--
Paul Boyd
http://www.paul-boyd.co.uk/

Will Cove said:

However, even in towns you would have the rat-run problem. For example,
initially I suspect that the current, congested through-routes would be
heavily priced but that the residential streets that run parallel would
not.

I don't think the GPS technology is yet up to reliably reporting which
of two closely parallel roads in town was used. I suspect they'll be
priced the same and town roads will be priced by zone rather than
having separate prices for every little street.

Will Cove said:

[email hidden] (Jim Ley) wrote in news:45a4d649.611632281
@news.individual.net:

Quoted message said:

Why would minor roads be priced cheaply? If the idea is to reduce
journeys at peak times, then all peak time prices would be high, not
just motorways. Motorways are also not the big bottlenecks in the
system, so I don't understand why people think it would be those that
are the high priced places and not the towns.

Ah! an urbanite!

No, whilst being homeless, I generally find myself in rural parts of
Devon, and I cycle regularly on declassified roads.

Quoted message said:

Initially, I suspect these will be priced at tuppence a mile.

Pure supposition, no one knows, of course, if it was the case, then it
would be a ludicrous system as you suggest, but I think it's very
unlikely.

Jim.

On Wed, 10 Jan 2007 13:34:53 +0000, Paul Boyd

usenet.dont.work@plusnet said:

Matt B said the following on 10/01/2007 13:05:

Quoted message said:

The Times reported the same motorway figure like this[1]:

"Congestion on motorways and A-roads would reduce by 34 per cent if
charges of up to £1.34 a mile were introduced, according to a study
published by the Department for Transport in 2004."

So if we work on the basis that people still need to get from A to B,
and that there will still be no adequate public transport
infrastructure, where will that 34% of congestion end up? On other
roads, some of which we like to cycle on.

I think you're massively underestimating both the number of entirely
discretionary journeys, and the number of journeys that can change in
time - even if you _need_ to take the kids to school in your 4x4 you
don't then need to carry on and run other errands at the same time,
which is what happens now.

Jim.