OT: which camera?

Andy Howell said:

Those OM cameras - and their lenses - were/are superb. I think that
Olympus caught a cold with the OM4. It was released to great reviews
but I think the electrics were dodgy.

There was a problem with the first models, I think some were recalled.
There was a terrible continuous battery drain, but that could be avoided
if you remembered to switch the shutter to B after every shot. That
became a force of habit with my OM3, but occasionally I'd forget and
find dead batteries on my next trip.

Quoted message said:

Mine blew within a few months
and the whole internal circuit array had to be replaced. If that
camera had really been reliable it would have been fascinating to see
how they would have built on it.

They did build on it, with the titanium versions. I think they were
produced until relatively recently (I'm sure I saw an OM3Ti on sale just
a few years back, for about £1800).

The OM3 and OM4 were essentially identical, apart from the mechanical
shutter in the OM3 and the electronic shutter in the OM4, which allowed
the latter to set the exposure automatically, unlike the OM3. Oddly,
the OM3 was the "pro" model and the OM4 was marketed to the masses, you
might expect the numbers to be reversed (but maybe that was a good
marketing decision). I read that the OM3 had a better build quality
since it was aimed at pros, maybe to make it more weather resistant. It
certainly lasted me a long time and I used it in all weathers.
Sometimes the electronics conked out in heavy rain, but the shutter kept
firing. Always used to carry a hand held meter just in case.

Paul
--
http://www.wilderness-wales.co.uk
http://www.wildwales.fsnet.co.uk

Quoted message said:

Andy Howell said:

Those OM cameras - and their lenses - were/are superb.

http://www3.olympus-europa.com/consumer/195_563.htm

Paul
--
http://www.wilderness-wales.co.uk
http://www.wildwales.fsnet.co.uk

Paul Saunders said:

Mind you, I always stop the lens down to at least f8, often f11,

http://www.photo.net/equipment/canon/efs18-55/review/

Just found a review, confirms what I just said.

Paul
--
http://www.wilderness-wales.co.uk
http://www.wildwales.fsnet.co.uk

Yeah, well hopefully it would motivate me, whereas it's frustrating when you
have a cheap and cheerful camera that won't do as it's told!

In article <[email hidden]>, pvs1
@wildwales.fsnet.co.uk says...

Quoted message said:

Paul Saunders said:

Mind you, I always stop the lens down to at least f8, often f11,

http://www.photo.net/equipment/canon/efs18-55/review/

Just found a review, confirms what I just said.

I'm sure I can find a review somewhere that says it is a poor lens - I
think it was in either AP or PP about 12 months ago.

If you're happy with, fair enough. I tested it, wasn't and had it
exchanged for the Sigma, which still isn't a brilliant lens but for the
price isn't at all bad. Especially as, like you, most of the time I'm
mid aperture and towards the shorter end of the zoom.

Had a play with the 20D while in town this morning. Managed to walk
away ... just!

--
Darren

Darren G said:

I'm sure I can find a review somewhere that says it is a poor lens - I
think it was in either AP or PP about 12 months ago.

I'm sure it is a poor lens when used at maximum aperture, that's my
whole point. Some people who use auto won't have a clue what the camera
is doing and will complain when photos turn out poorly. Some people may
use maximum aperture regularly because they like fast shutter speeds,
and don't realise how their photos are suffering (still, that's probably
better than camera shake).

Quoted message said:

If you're happy with, fair enough.

Well I'm not "happy" with it as such, I'm just not "unhappy" with it.
It does a reasonable job for the price. At the time I coudn't afford
any better lenses with it so I've just been making do until I can, which
hopefully won't be much longer.

Quoted message said:

I tested it, wasn't and had it
exchanged for the Sigma, which still isn't a brilliant lens but for
the price isn't at all bad. Especially as, like you, most of the
time I'm mid aperture and towards the shorter end of the zoom.

Would you say the Sigma is better?

Sigma have recently released two new digital lenses which might be of
interest. One is a higher quality (EX) version of the 18-50mm, this
time with a maximum aperture of f2.8 throughout the whole range. £370.
http://www.sigma-imaging-uk.com/a_pages/dc18-50-EX.htm

The other is a 7x zoom, from 18-125mm (29-200mm equiv) in a very small
and light package (only 3in long). This could be an ideal single lens
for lightweight travel, although zooms of this range typically aren't
very good. £230.
http://www.sigma-imaging-uk.com/a_pages/dc18-125.htm

Quoted message said:

Had a play with the 20D while in town this morning. Managed to walk
away ... just!

I noticed on an American website that Canon are bundling the new 17-85mm
IS digital lens with the 20D at a relatively bargain price (far less
than you'd pay for each of them separately) Does anyone know if that
offer is available in the UK? Since I'd like to buy that lens I'm
wondering if it may be more economical to buy it with the 20D and sell
the 300D. Perhaps the amount saved on the bundle would offset the loss
when selling the 300D? Anyone know more about this?

Paul
--
http://www.wilderness-wales.co.uk
http://www.wildwales.fsnet.co.uk

"Paul Saunders" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

If you're happy with, fair enough.

Well I'm not "happy" with it as such, I'm just not "unhappy" with it.
It does a reasonable job for the price. At the time I coudn't afford
any better lenses with it so I've just been making do until I can, which
hopefully won't be much longer.

I think "reasonable" is a little harsh - between f8-f16 it is, in my
experience over the past year, very sharp and has produced some excellent
shots worthy of a lens costing much more. All down to personal opinion in
the end anyway.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Had a play with the 20D while in town this morning. Managed to walk
away ... just!

I noticed on an American website that Canon are bundling the new 17-85mm
IS digital lens with the 20D at a relatively bargain price (far less
than you'd pay for each of them separately) Does anyone know if that
offer is available in the UK? Since I'd like to buy that lens I'm
wondering if it may be more economical to buy it with the 20D and sell
the 300D. Perhaps the amount saved on the bundle would offset the loss
when selling the 300D? Anyone know more about this?

I've been keeping a very close eye on the UK retailers offering the 20D and
none, that I can see, offer this lens. Care to give URLs and/or prices that
the Yanks are offering for this bundle? Incidentally, the 20D is already
coming down in price, albeit slowly. £1080 body-only cheapest I've seen.

Will

In article <[email hidden]>, pvs1
@wildwales.fsnet.co.uk says...

Quoted message said:

Darren G wrote:

[...]

Quoted message said:

Well I'm not "happy" with it as such, I'm just not "unhappy" with it.
It does a reasonable job for the price. At the time I coudn't afford
any better lenses with it so I've just been making do until I can, which
hopefully won't be much longer.

Quoted message said:

I tested it, wasn't and had it
exchanged for the Sigma, which still isn't a brilliant lens but for
the price isn't at all bad. Especially as, like you, most of the
time I'm mid aperture and towards the shorter end of the zoom.

Would you say the Sigma is better?

in my view yes. As rather a regular at the my local shop, they let me
take both the Canon and Sigma to trial (actually the guy recommended I
do so as he had already returned his EF-S). Based on my trial across
apertures and focal lengths I preferred the Sigma. Neither were awful
(or exceptional) but I just found that the Sigma gave a crisper image.
It seemed to have the edge in sharpness/resolution and IMO gave a better
colour saturation. This was by no means a scientific analysis but just
a matter of taking a number of shot, mainly landscape but some others to
check other lengths and apertures, and looking at the results. The
judgement was purely based on my subjective appraisal of the resultant
images. Maybe other people who look at things differently would come to
a different choice.

If I had any webspace and could find the images I'd stick them up and
let people make their own choice. Although without posting the full
RAWs it probably would not give enough detail to make a comparison.

That

Quoted message said:

Sigma have recently released two new digital lenses which might be of
interest. One is a higher quality (EX) version of the 18-50mm, this
time with a maximum aperture of f2.8 throughout the whole range. £370.
http://www.sigma-imaging-uk.com/a_pages/dc18-50-EX.htm

Missed that announcement. That could be a very nice lens. Another one
for the wish list,

Quoted message said:

The other is a 7x zoom, from 18-125mm (29-200mm equiv) in a very small
and light package (only 3in long). This could be an ideal single lens
for lightweight travel, although zooms of this range typically aren't
very good. £230.
http://www.sigma-imaging-uk.com/a_pages/dc18-125.htm

tried this once before as a compromise with a 28-200 on 35mm. Would
never do it again as the quality was (relatively) lousy, both in terms
of build and optical quality,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Had a play with the 20D while in town this morning. Managed to walk
away ... just!

I noticed on an American website that Canon are bundling the new 17-85mm
IS digital lens with the 20D at a relatively bargain price (far less
than you'd pay for each of them separately) Does anyone know if that
offer is available in the UK? Since I'd like to buy that lens I'm
wondering if it may be more economical to buy it with the 20D and sell
the 300D. Perhaps the amount saved on the bundle would offset the loss
when selling the 300D? Anyone know more about this?

Could always sell the 20D and keep the lens. The 20D would have a
better residual than the 3000D. No? Thought not :-)

--
Darren

Will said:

I think "reasonable" is a little harsh - between f8-f16 it is, in my
experience over the past year, very sharp and has produced some
excellent shots worthy of a lens costing much more. All down to
personal opinion in the end anyway.

As I said, I don't have any other Canon lenses to compare it with, so I
have no reference point.

Quoted message said:

I've been keeping a very close eye on the UK retailers offering the
20D and none, that I can see, offer this lens. Care to give URLs
and/or prices that the Yanks are offering for this bundle?
Incidentally, the 20D is already coming down in price, albeit slowly.
£1080 body-only cheapest I've seen.

I've just been looking and I can't find the sites I found earlier.
However I've just managed to find a UK retailer offering it (although
they don't have it in stock yet;
http://www.cameradepot.co.uk/mall/productpage.cfm/CameraDepot/SLRDIG%2D1
68
£1,467.32 for the 20D plus the 17-85mm IS lens. (RRP £1,809.98)

Review here;
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/cameras/20d-location.shtml

I've also just found this site offering the 17-85 lens for just £466,
and they say that it's in stock (unlike the 10-22, which they're
offering for £571 when they get it).
http://www.digital-cameras.com/Camera_Accessories-6_sc/Lenses__Lens_Adap
tors-37/Canon_EOS_Lens_1785mm_EFS_F4056_IS_USM-2362.html

Anyone know of any other UK suppliers offering these two lenses,
particularly the 10-22mm?

Paul
--
http://www.wilderness-wales.co.uk
http://www.wildwales.fsnet.co.uk

Darren G said:

Quoted message said:

Would you say the Sigma is better?

in my view yes. As rather a regular at the my local shop, they let me
take both the Canon and Sigma to trial

Lucky you!

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Sigma have recently released two new digital lenses which might be of
interest. One is a higher quality (EX) version of the 18-50mm, this
time with a maximum aperture of f2.8 throughout the whole range.
£370. http://www.sigma-imaging-uk.com/a_pages/dc18-50-EX.htm

Missed that announcement. That could be a very nice lens. Another
one for the wish list,

Tempting isn't it? But I'm also tempted by the 17-85 which has a much
better range and ISM too. The latter is undoubtedly a more versatile
lens, great for "walking-around" as they say, and that's what we do on
this newsgroup. Ideal for handheld shots with the IS.

The Sigma could produce better quality pics though, and would be great
for low light shooting and portraiture. Not a bad price either for an
f2.8 zoom.

Quoted message said:

18-125mm

Quoted message said:

tried this once before as a compromise with a 28-200 on 35mm. Would
never do it again as the quality was (relatively) lousy, both in terms
of build and optical quality,

Might this one be better since it's a digital design, designed for the
smaller sensor?

Quoted message said:

Could always sell the 20D and keep the lens. The 20D would have a
better residual than the 3000D. No? Thought not :-)

Nah... ;-)

Paul
--
http://www.wilderness-wales.co.uk
http://www.wildwales.fsnet.co.uk

Graeme Cogger said:

The 2 Sigma lenses are getting good user feedback on the
dpreview forums. The 18-125 has a little distortion, and
vignetting wide open, but it's easily corrected in Photoshop.
I've just bought the 18-125, and it seems at least as good as
the kit lens once they're both at f/8 or so. I'm taking it to
the Lake District this week, so let's hope the weather holds
out...
The Canon lens has had a very mixed reception - some like it
and some don't. Even many of the people who like it regard it
as overpriced, however :-(

I noticed a few such comments. One guy said it's fine when stopped
down, another complained that the quality was [censored] but didn't mention
what apertures he was using.

I tend to think that when you get a mixed reception like this, how much
of it is due to some photographers stopping down and others using it
wide open? Those with a landscape mentality will naturally tend to stop
down, and put it on a tripod if necessary, but others who like to take
candids and portraits often use lenses wide open I think, to keep the
shutter speeds up.

Paul
--
http://www.wilderness-wales.co.uk
http://www.wildwales.fsnet.co.uk

In article <[email hidden]>, pvs1
@wildwales.fsnet.co.uk says...
Would you say the Sigma is better?

Quoted message said:

Sigma have recently released two new digital lenses which might be of
interest. One is a higher quality (EX) version of the 18-50mm, this
time with a maximum aperture of f2.8 throughout the whole range. £370.
http://www.sigma-imaging-uk.com/a_pages/dc18-50-EX.htm

The other is a 7x zoom, from 18-125mm (29-200mm equiv) in a very small
and light package (only 3in long). This could be an ideal single lens
for lightweight travel, although zooms of this range typically aren't
very good. £230.
http://www.sigma-imaging-uk.com/a_pages/dc18-125.htm

Quoted message said:

Had a play with the 20D while in town this morning. Managed to walk
away ... just!

I noticed on an American website that Canon are bundling the new 17-85mm
IS digital lens with the 20D at a relatively bargain price (far less
than you'd pay for each of them separately) Does anyone know if that
offer is available in the UK? Since I'd like to buy that lens I'm
wondering if it may be more economical to buy it with the 20D and sell
the 300D. Perhaps the amount saved on the bundle would offset the loss
when selling the 300D? Anyone know more about this?

The 2 Sigma lenses are getting good user feedback on the
dpreview forums. The 18-125 has a little distortion, and
vignetting wide open, but it's easily corrected in Photoshop.
I've just bought the 18-125, and it seems at least as good as
the kit lens once they're both at f/8 or so. I'm taking it to
the Lake District this week, so let's hope the weather holds
out...
The Canon lens has had a very mixed reception - some like it
and some don't. Even many of the people who like it regard it
as overpriced, however :-(

Paul Saunders said:

Will said:

I think "reasonable" is a little harsh - between f8-f16 it is, in my
experience over the past year, very sharp and has produced some
excellent shots worthy of a lens costing much more. All down to
personal opinion in the end anyway.

As I said, I don't have any other Canon lenses to compare it with, so I
have no reference point.

Quoted message said:

I've been keeping a very close eye on the UK retailers offering the
20D and none, that I can see, offer this lens. Care to give URLs
and/or prices that the Yanks are offering for this bundle?
Incidentally, the 20D is already coming down in price, albeit slowly.
£1080 body-only cheapest I've seen.

I've just been looking and I can't find the sites I found earlier.
However I've just managed to find a UK retailer offering it (although
they don't have it in stock yet;
http://www.cameradepot.co.uk/mall/productpage.cfm/CameraDepot/SLRDIG%2D1
68
£1,467.32 for the 20D plus the 17-85mm IS lens. (RRP £1,809.98)

Review here;
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/cameras/20d-location.shtml

I've also just found this site offering the 17-85 lens for just £466,
and they say that it's in stock (unlike the 10-22, which they're
offering for £571 when they get it).
http://www.digital-cameras.com/Camera_Accessories-6_sc/Lenses__Lens_Adap
tors-37/Canon_EOS_Lens_1785mm_EFS_F4056_IS_USM-2362.html

Anyone know of any other UK suppliers offering these two lenses,
particularly the 10-22mm?

Paul
--
http://www.wilderness-wales.co.uk
http://www.wildwales.fsnet.co.uk

This German firm deals internationally and has pages in english with
sterling prices. http://www.technikdirekt.de/

Norman

On Sat, 16 Oct 2004 16:32:45 +0100, "Will" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

"Paul Saunders" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

If you're happy with, fair enough.

Well I'm not "happy" with it as such, I'm just not "unhappy" with it.
It does a reasonable job for the price. At the time I coudn't afford
any better lenses with it so I've just been making do until I can, which
hopefully won't be much longer.

I think "reasonable" is a little harsh - between f8-f16 it is, in my
experience over the past year, very sharp and has produced some excellent
shots worthy of a lens costing much more. All down to personal opinion in
the end anyway.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Had a play with the 20D while in town this morning. Managed to walk
away ... just!

I noticed on an American website that Canon are bundling the new 17-85mm
IS digital lens with the 20D at a relatively bargain price (far less
than you'd pay for each of them separately) Does anyone know if that
offer is available in the UK? Since I'd like to buy that lens I'm
wondering if it may be more economical to buy it with the 20D and sell
the 300D. Perhaps the amount saved on the bundle would offset the loss
when selling the 300D? Anyone know more about this?

I've been keeping a very close eye on the UK retailers offering the 20D and
none, that I can see, offer this lens. Care to give URLs and/or prices that
the Yanks are offering for this bundle? Incidentally, the 20D is already
coming down in price, albeit slowly. £1080 body-only cheapest I've seen.

Will

The 20D is £1062.96 at
http://www.unbeatable.co.uk/CatalogueItem_22095.html

and £1007 at
http://www.pixmania.co.uk/uk/uk/56822/art/canon/eos-20d.html

Norman

I noticed that Message-ID: <[email hidden]>
from Will contained the following:

Quoted message said:

I've been keeping a very close eye on the UK retailers offering the 20D and
none, that I can see, offer this lens. Care to give URLs and/or prices that
the Yanks are offering for this bundle? Incidentally, the 20D is already
coming down in price, albeit slowly. £1080 body-only cheapest I've seen.

Girl in Jessops told me they couldn't get hold of them.
--
Geoff Berrow (put thecat out to email)
It's only Usenet, no one dies.
My opinions, not the committee's, mine.
Simple RFDs http://www.ckdog.co.uk/rfdmaker/

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden]
says...

Quoted message said:

I noticed that Message-ID: <[email hidden]>
from Will contained the following:

Quoted message said:

I've been keeping a very close eye on the UK retailers offering the 20D and
none, that I can see, offer this lens. Care to give URLs and/or prices that
the Yanks are offering for this bundle? Incidentally, the 20D is already
coming down in price, albeit slowly. £1080 body-only cheapest I've seen.

Girl in Jessops told me they couldn't get hold of them.

my local LCE has them in stock as of 10.05 this morning.

--
Darren

Paul Saunders said:

Sorry, but no matter how good this chip is and no matter what it does,
it can't produce 8MP of resolution from 4MP. The quality may be very
good, but any 8MP camera will be twice as sharp.

In theory, I'd have to agree. But the image has to be processed
in-camera first and it is this that will affect the outcome

If the resolution at 8MP is soft, its equivalent res may well be less
than that of a good sharp efficient 4MP

..
Mark Cavendish
Cardiff, Wales

In article <[email hidden]>, pvs1
@wildwales.fsnet.co.uk says...

Quoted message said:

Graeme Cogger said:

The 2 Sigma lenses are getting good user feedback on the
dpreview forums. The 18-125 has a little distortion, and
vignetting wide open, but it's easily corrected in Photoshop.
I've just bought the 18-125, and it seems at least as good as
the kit lens once they're both at f/8 or so. I'm taking it to
the Lake District this week, so let's hope the weather holds
out...
The Canon lens has had a very mixed reception - some like it
and some don't. Even many of the people who like it regard it
as overpriced, however :-(

I noticed a few such comments. One guy said it's fine when stopped
down, another complained that the quality was [censored] but didn't mention
what apertures he was using.

I tend to think that when you get a mixed reception like this, how much
of it is due to some photographers stopping down and others using it
wide open? Those with a landscape mentality will naturally tend to stop
down, and put it on a tripod if necessary, but others who like to take
candids and portraits often use lenses wide open I think, to keep the
shutter speeds up.

Yes, I've noticed the same thing when people talk about the kit
lens. Stopped down to f/8, and at longer distances, it's
pretty close to my Canon 50/1.8 prime for sharpness/resolution.
Wide open, or at closer distances, there's no contest - the
50mm is streets ahead.
I'm hoping the Sigma will be the same as the kit lens, and
maybe better at close range 🙂

In article <[email hidden]>, Paul Saunders
<[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

It hasn't, but it will be. You don't digital camera evolution will stop
at the 20D do you? Might be worth waiting for the 12MP 40D! ;-)

You didn't stop to think when you wrote this methinks :-)
--
Bill Grey
http://www.billboy.co.uk

On 16/10/04 5:13 pm, in article
[email hidden], "Darren G"

Quoted message said:

in my view yes. As rather a regular at the my local shop, they let me
take both the Canon and Sigma to trial (actually the guy recommended I
do so as he had already returned his EF-S). Based on my trial across
apertures and focal lengths I preferred the Sigma. Neither were awful
(or exceptional) but I just found that the Sigma gave a crisper image.
It seemed to have the edge in sharpness/resolution and IMO gave a better
colour saturation. This was by no means a scientific analysis but just
a matter of taking a number of shot, mainly landscape but some others to
check other lengths and apertures, and looking at the results. The
judgement was purely based on my subjective appraisal of the resultant
images. Maybe other people who look at things differently would come to
a different choice.

Rather dangerous this, claiming to prefer something over Canon!

--
Andy Howell
Birmingham, UK