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OT: Can We Surrender?

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Recumbent bicycles
Published
21 November 2003
Last activity
11 December 2003
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Stratrider
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  1. tzenobite said:

    ... i think now the majority of americans and english people want to stop this war, mr. bush and
    mr. blair know it, and if they don't they aren't democracies leader, simply because they was
    elected to follow the people wishes, and they now don't....

    Leaders are supposed to convince the people to make hard choices, not just follow the popular
    opinion of the moment.

    Bush and Blair's problem is simple. The sold the invasion of Iraq on information that has been
    shown to be false (aluminum tubes for gas centrifuges, uranium from Niger, mobile bioweapon labs,
    stocks of biological and chemical weapons, connections to Al Qaeda, active nuclear weapons program)
    and worse for them, it has been shown that they knew most of this was false before the invasion
    took place.

    Tom Sherman - Planet Earth

  2. "Tom Sherman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    tzenobite said:

    ... i think now the majority of americans and english people want to stop this war, mr. bush and
    mr. blair know it, and if they don't they aren't democracies leader, simply because they was
    elected to follow the people wishes, and they now don't....

    Leaders are supposed to convince the people to make hard choices, not just follow the popular
    opinion of the moment.

    Bush and Blair's problem is simple. The sold the invasion of Iraq on information that has been
    shown to be false (aluminum tubes for gas centrifuges, uranium from Niger, mobile bioweapon labs,
    stocks of biological and chemical weapons, connections to Al Qaeda, active nuclear weapons
    program) and worse for them, it has been shown that they knew most of this was false before the
    invasion took place.

    Bush's job was to get the neo-conservatives what they wanted: A foreign war of endless duration
    against a nebulous enemy. Bush sold this war on false pretenses; because the US has run out of
    legitimate enemies (as stated very clearly by Colin Powell: "I've run out of boogie men."😉 Men of
    peace would consider this to be an optimal situation. Warmongers - especially Pentagon contractors
    and war profiteers - saw it as a crisis.

    Bush and his neocon cabinet have shown their true colors, their true constituencies and their true
    concern for the safety of US citizens. Actions speak louder than words every time. If Bush is
    re-elected, it will be because the American people are brainwashed by disinformation, censorship and
    propaganda. The whitewashing of the Iraq conflict began long before the invasion, and has continued
    unabated. Americans don't see images of their dead sons and daughters in body bags ^H^H^H^H^H
    transportation tubes, or images of the carnage and suffering on TV. Bush knows he must control the
    media very carefully in order to succeed, and that honest reporting of the facts wouldn't allow him
    to keep feeding fat government contracts to his war profiteering buddies from an endless, and very
    expensive, foreign war.

    All of this is well supported by facts presented from many news sources (from outside the US). But
    within the US, it doesn't match with what the right-wing cheerleaders are spewing from every TV
    channel and every op-ed page in every newspaper. The bloodthirsty racist warmongering neocon
    brainwashing machine is in high gear in America, stomping out all dissent, and trumping facts with
    polarizing, hateful ad hominem. Anybody who still thinks that America is a free democratic state
    with a free press that doesn't resort to propaganda is living with a vital lie. Unfortunately, this
    vital lie - that the President is honest, and that the media tells the whole, unbiased truth - is
    cherished by most Americans. Propaganda of this magnitude can be very effective in the US.

    -=B=-

  3. Rocketman said:


    Bush's job was to get the neo-conservatives what they wanted: A foreign war of endless duration
    against a nebulous enemy.

    Utter horse-[censored]. Is someone going to tell THIS guy's ISP, or just Ed Dolan's?

    I suppose this kind of OT is OK, though...

  4. "Rocketman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:<emPvb.208683$9E1.1121521@attbi_s52>... [...]

    Quoted message said:

    I wasn't in favor of Desert Storm; but it is encouraging to know that Bush Sr. exercised
    appropriate restraint, and wrote these words of wisdom to *try to stop future presidents from
    making foolish mistakes*!!!!

    No, you did not have a clue then the same way you do not have a clue now. You are the full range
    idiotic liberal. If I am ever at a lost to know what to think about something, I will consult with
    you, find out what you think, and then think exactly the opposite. That way I will not know that I
    am 100% correct.

    Quoted message said:

    History lessons - try some today!

    It is no good to read history if you are reading the wrong histories. Better not to read any
    history at all!

    Ed Dolan -Minnesota

  5. Tom Sherman <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:

    brian hughes wrote:

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    There were many many surface to air missiles shot at our fighters patrolling for Northern Watch
    and Southern Watch throughout the bulk of the last decade. Iraq agreed to be non-agressive, but
    reneged....

    Iraq was firing missiles WITHIN ITS NATIONAL BOUNDARIES. What a threat to the United States. I
    wanted to go hide under the bed.

    Final proof that Mr. Sherman is an idiot! Why am I wasting my time on this guy?

    Ed Dolan - Minnesota

  6. Tom Sherman <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:
    Edward Dolan said:


    Tom Sherman <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:

    Edward Dolan wrote:

    > You are a numb skull of the first rank. Of course Iraq under Saddam had all kinds of
    > aggression toward the US. Are you insane?...

    Mr. Dolan:

    Please cite specific instances of Iraqi aggression towards the US under the Hussein regime.

    No, you cite the instances, or do you fear that if you were to do so you might have to
    reevaluate your position on the war. I've got better things to do than to look up information
    for you that you can easily look up for yourself if you have a mind to.

    No Mr. Dolan, YOU made the contention that Iraq under the Hussein regime was committing acts of
    aggression towards the United States, so the burden of proof fall on you.

    Brian Hughes has already answered your idiotic question in a previous post.

    But even more important than what Iraq was actually doing is the far more important question of what
    Iraq was planning to do. Intention is everything in foreign relations. Statesmen and politicians
    spend their lives trying to figure out what the intentions are of foreign governments. To
    miscalculate on this is to court disaster.

    As an example, the Cuban Missile Crisis could have been the beginning of WW III and pretty much the
    end of the world as we know it if the politicians had not been able to read what was intended. This
    is why I so despise the French. I have read their intention to harm the US and its interests because
    they do like the idea of there being a sole super power in the world.

    Too bad liberals do not know how to read intentions. All they know are ridiculous and absurd
    conspiracy theories which everyone else finds to be insane.

    Ed Dolan - Minnesota

  7. Quoted message said:

    Leaders are supposed to convince the people to make hard choices, not just follow the popular
    opinion of the moment.


    you're right (you are almost alway right ;-) but today people around the world is against the war,
    and if our government stil ignore this we no more are living in democratic nations i mean that if
    so many people go to roads with peace banners and peace flags means only that today only mr. bush,
    mr. blair (and mr. sharon, who in my humble opinion is the puppetmaster who move mr. bush's
    brainless body) want war in middle east... i fear iraq isn't the last country in bush's *democracy*
    war agenda mate

  8. Tom Sherman <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:
    Edward Dolan said:

    ...

    Quoted message said:

    > Yes, yes, Bush and his advisers are all idiots of course....

    Now you are making sense, Mr. Dolan.

    Selective editing. Do not do too much of this sort of thing or I will get really [censored]....

    Mr. Dolan is going to report me to the House Un-American Activities Committee.

    No, it is you confounded liberals who run to government for everything. We conservatives like to
    handle things on our own and only resort to government for those very few things that only
    government can do.

    Ed Dolan - Minnesota

  9. Tom Sherman <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>... ]...]

    Quoted message said:

    Leaders are supposed to convince the people to make hard choices, not just follow the popular
    opinion of the moment.

    You should have been preaching that bit of philosophy to Clinton, who was notorious for always
    holding his finger to the wind to see which way it was blowing. Ever a man of the polls, he was
    eventually destroyed by the polls.

    Quoted message said:

    Bush and Blair's problem is simple. The sold the invasion of Iraq on information that has been
    shown to be false (aluminum tubes for gas centrifuges, uranium from Niger, mobile bioweapon labs,
    stocks of biological and chemical weapons, connections to Al Qaeda, active nuclear weapons
    program) and worse for them, it has been shown that they knew most of this was false before the
    invasion took place.

    He hasn't a clue about the war, except that he doesn't want it - period! That is all he knows and
    all he needs to know. Aren't you glad we do not have idiots like this running the world?

    Ed Dolan - Minnesota

  10. Edward Dolan said:

    ... Too bad liberals do not know how to read intentions. All they know are ridiculous and absurd
    conspiracy theories which everyone else finds to be insane.

    Do you mean that Elvis is really dead? I am in shock! I thought he was hanging out with
    space aliens.

    Tom Sherman - Planet Earth AKA Funny Farm

  11. tzenobite said:


    Quoted message said:

    Leaders are supposed to convince the people to make hard choices, not just follow the popular
    opinion of the moment.


    you're right (you are almost alway right ;-)

    Annoying, isn't it? 😉

    Tom Sherman - Planet Earth

  12. Edward Dolan said:

    ...We conservatives like to handle things on our own and only resort to government for those very
    few things that only government can do.

    Yes, someone has to protect us from the Knights of Ni, not to mention
    Mr. Ed, the talking horse.

    Tom Sherman - Planet Earth

  13. "Edward Dolan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    "Rocketman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message


    news:<emPvb.208683$9E1.1121521@attbi_s52>...

    Quoted message said:

    [...]

    Quoted message said:

    I wasn't in favor of Desert Storm; but it is encouraging to know that


    Bush

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Sr. exercised appropriate restraint, and wrote these words of wisdom to


    *try

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    to stop future presidents from making foolish mistakes*!!!!

    No, you did not have a clue then the same way you do not have a clue now. You are the full range
    idiotic liberal. If I am ever at a lost to know what to think about something, I will consult with
    you, find out what you think, and then think exactly the opposite. That way I will not know that I
    am 100% correct.

    You've just described the conservative thought process.

    Examine situation from paranoid viewpoint Define enemy as anybody that's not just like you Assume
    that enemy wants what you have Identify and arrogantly dehumanize enemies Make plans to "take out"
    the enemy Define all arguments as "us vs. them" Disregard facts that don't support your paranoid
    assertions Slander and intimidate anyone who attempts to dissent Enlist wealthy, paranoid
    megalomaniacs to control the media Depend upon bandwagon effect to smooth over obstacles Sell your
    paranoid, racist-motivated war with lies and fear

    Quite a system you've got there! I think you were born in the wrong century. You'd have made a great
    Grand Inquisitor.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    History lessons - try some today!

    It is no good to read history if you are reading the wrong histories. Better not to read any
    history at all!

    Which is obviously your strategy.

    -=Barry=-

  14. "Edward Dolan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Tom Sherman <[email hidden]> wrote in message


    news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:


    Quoted message said:

    brian hughes wrote:

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    There were many many surface to air missiles shot at our fighters


    patrolling

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    for Northern Watch and Southern Watch throughout the bulk of the last decade. Iraq agreed to
    be non-agressive, but reneged....

    Iraq was firing missiles WITHIN ITS NATIONAL BOUNDARIES. What a threat to the United States. I
    wanted to go hide under the bed.

    Final proof that Mr. Sherman is an idiot! Why am I wasting my time on this


    guy?

    Sorry, numbnuts, but Iraq is a sovereign nation. Firing non-nuclear devices within its own borders
    is 100% legal. Got a problem with that?

    There is one huge whack of difference between having a handful of missiles that might be able to hit
    a neighboring country, and having hundreds of nuclear-tipped ICBM's aimed at the US. Guess which
    scenario Bush sold to a cowering, shell-shocked American populace?

    Again, your arrogance and ignorance are revealed.

    -=B=-

  15. "Edward Dolan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Tom Sherman <[email hidden]> wrote in message


    news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:

    ]...]

    Quoted message said:

    Leaders are supposed to convince the people to make hard choices, not just follow the popular
    opinion of the moment.

    You should have been preaching that bit of philosophy to Clinton, who was notorious for always
    holding his finger to the wind to see which way it was blowing. Ever a man of the polls, he was
    eventually destroyed by the polls.

    Quoted message said:

    Bush and Blair's problem is simple. The sold the invasion of Iraq on information that has been
    shown to be false (aluminum tubes for gas centrifuges, uranium from Niger, mobile bioweapon
    labs, stocks of biological and chemical weapons, connections to Al Qaeda, active nuclear weapons
    program) and worse for them, it has been shown that they knew most of this was false before the
    invasion took place.

    He hasn't a clue about the war, except that he doesn't want it - period!

    In none of Mr. Sherman's postings has he *ever* said or implied anything like what you are
    asserting. It appears to me that Tom values human life over racist, paranoid, megalomanic witch
    hunts conducted by warmongering neocon zealots who have no qualms about using lies, deception,
    intimidation and corruption to conduct their wars and carry out their Orwellian policies. I'd say
    he's got his finger right on the buzzer.

    -=B=-

  16. Edward Dolan said:


    Tom Sherman <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:<[email hidden]>... ]...]

    Quoted message said:

    Leaders are supposed to convince the people to make hard choices, not just follow the popular
    opinion of the moment.

    You should have been preaching that bit of philosophy to Clinton, who was notorious for always
    holding his finger to the wind to see which way it was blowing. Ever a man of the polls, he was
    eventually destroyed by the polls.

    I never liked Bill Clinton and I never voted for him. So there!

    Quoted message said:

    He hasn't a clue about the war, except that he doesn't want it - period! That is all he knows and
    all he needs to know. Aren't you glad we do not have idiots like this running the world?

    I see that Mr. Dolan is having a problem with indefinite pronouns.

    Tom Sherman - Planet Earth

  17. Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    you're right (you are almost alway right ;-)

    Annoying, isn't it? 😉


    only a little ;-)

    Quoted message said:

    Tom Sherman - Planet Earth


    matteo varigotti/savona/liguria/italia

  18. "Zippy the Pinhead" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Rocketman said:


    Bush's job was to get the neo-conservatives what they wanted: A foreign


    war

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    of endless duration against a nebulous enemy.

    Utter horse-[censored]. Is someone going to tell THIS guy's ISP, or just Ed Dolan's?

    Somebody needs a dry diaper and a bottle, I think.

    -=B=-

  19. It is with great fascination that I read the political comments on this site.

    The behavior of the participants of this group in no small way mirror the politics on the global
    stage. We have people that routinely resort to name calling, have implied the use of physical
    violence, purposefully goad other people into escalation's of verbal hostilities, and so forth. I am
    glad that none of you are in possession of WMD's or all hell would break loose.

    I suspect that the majority of us that frequent this site have more things in common with one
    another than the leaders at the global level. If we can not treat one another with respect, how can
    we possibly expect people with larger differences to behave in a rational fashion.

    If we simply accept that our way is the only way, we are condemning ourselves and our children to
    the same horrors that confront us. If however, we choose to think about our actions and their
    effects upon others we may yet change the world.

    By the way my political leanings are conservative. I just happen to posses an intellect that I like
    to exercise periodically. Perhaps a few more of us should exercise our mental well being as well as
    the physical.

    William Higley, Sr. Vision R-50 RANS Rocket

    "They suffer from constipation of the brain, and diarrhea of the mouth" ~ G.A. Higley's description
    of most politicians "Tom Sherman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    Edward Dolan said:


    Tom Sherman <[email hidden]> wrote in message


    news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    ]...]

    Quoted message said:

    Leaders are supposed to convince the people to make hard choices, not just follow the popular
    opinion of the moment.

    You should have been preaching that bit of philosophy to Clinton, who was notorious for always
    holding his finger to the wind to see which way it was blowing. Ever a man of the polls, he was
    eventually destroyed by the polls.

    I never liked Bill Clinton and I never voted for him. So there!

    Quoted message said:

    He hasn't a clue about the war, except that he doesn't want it - period! That is all he knows
    and all he needs to know. Aren't you glad we do not have idiots like this running the world?

    I see that Mr. Dolan is having a problem with indefinite pronouns.

    Tom Sherman - Planet Earth

  20. "Tom Sherman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    stratrider said:


    In recent weeks, I have read a number of OT politically charged threads surrounding the US's war
    on terror, and the war in Iraq. Many I agree with. Some I laugh at. Some I cry at. All of these
    threads collectively motivated me to postulate the following: I will start by assuming that the
    enemy has some cease fire/ surrender conditions. First, what are they? Second, suppose the US
    were to agree to those terms? I know, ridiculous. But just suppose they would. Is this what is
    being demanded by the protestors in the UK and elsewhere? Would Bin Laden agree to call off the
    killers if in fact the US would "surrender". I am guessing no....

    Fanatics such as Osama bin Laden are not possible to reason with. However, by themselves or with
    only a few followers they can do little damage.

    Hmmn I seem to remember a lot of damage on 9/11/2001

    It is the policies of the US in the Middle East (supporting

    Quoted message said:

    corrupt authoritarian governments, ignoring Israeli human rights and international laws
    violations, etc.) that lead many to support Al Qaeda and its ilk, and many more to do nothing to
    oppose the fanatical elements. [1] If the US policies towards the Middle East changed from those
    of exploitation to ones of true support for human rights, the terrorist problem would decrease to
    where it could be effectively combated through intelligence sharing and police action.

    Wouldn't make any difference what the US did, the problems in the middle east are the same as any
    other trouble spot in the world, lack of education and poverty. Ever wonder why the Palestinians are
    so poverty-striken when several arab countries surround it that have countless billions of dollars
    available?

    If we weren't around the terrorists will simply hate someone else, usually each other

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