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ok, hands up

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Cycling Equipment
Published
4 September 2003
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13 September 2003
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Jim Beam
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  1. "swamprun" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:

    You are a typical recumbent zealot. You say the recumbent "kick ass on level ground". Why not
    quantify it ? If you were to do a fair comparison of yourself riding on a road bike vs. the
    recumbent, what would the speed difference be ? A device called a "speedometer", properly
    calibrated, would be what you would use to determine the difference. You would want to take an
    average over several rides, over the same course to get a good comparison of the two machines.

    Alas, recumbent zealots don't seem to understand how to discuss the topic of velocity in objective
    terms. Perhaps they have something to hide.

    Nothing to hide: recumbents.comspeedchallenge 2003.htm

    Eighty-one miles per hour on level ground... verified by electronic timers.

    Jeff

  2. jim beam said:
    Quoted message said:

    In the absence of any other theory why Jobst's and similar techniques seem to work, I believe it
    is very likely to be accurate.

    had an interesting discussion with mike prime on this subject:

    google.comgroups
    21497,1035850616,1035780825,1035426344,1035277800,1034997547,1034837747,1034583400,1033628218,101-
    2082330,1012049533&seekm=a6ac46b4.0308270639.a12f4d0%40posting.google.com#link12

    I missed that thread or I would probably not have bothered to argue with you again. Mike is
    eminently qualified to discuss residual stresses.

    Quoted message said:


    mike's convinced me that the residual stress of wheel building, at least as far as the spoke
    elbow is concerned, [the most likely failure point] is actually tensile, not compressive.
    tensile residual stress at this point /should/ make fatigue more likely, not less. and /further/
    bending at this point from stress relief, as described by mike, is going to make the problem
    worse, not better.

    You might want to re-read Mikes post with the ASCII diagrams. He is describing why there are
    residual stresses from forming the bend in the spoke during manufacturing. The resulting tensile
    residual stresses inside the elbow are exactly what Jobst refers to. Improving the spoke line on
    outer spokes may increase those residual stresses. Putting the spoke in tension until the area
    with tensile residual stress yields (stress relieving) will reduce those residual stresses to
    some extent.

    I don't see anything in Mike's posts that contradicts Jobst or what I said. He used an elastic
    perfectly plastic model for his simple example. Did you criticize him for neglecting work hardening?

    Dave Korzekwa

  3. jim beam said:

    quick survey:

    hands up all those that feel free to criticize a piece of equipment they've never tried. anyone?

    Remind me to not go mushroom hunting with you.

  4. developping a relaxed attitude about other opinions esp. from people not in the room is healthy and
    leads to an overall understanding, giving educational attributes to the stuff you do read here
    including the fact that people tend to be entertaining as long as they're not personally causing you
    pain or if far enough away even if they are... red skelton's characters were a good example but iyam
    not au currant here. maybe arnold?

  5. In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] (Jeff

    Wills) said:

    Tim McNamara <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:<[email hidden]>... <snipped>

    Quoted message said:


    You write this as though "the pain" is an inevitable consequence of riding s standard bicycle.
    Frankly, for rides under about 100 miles, I think that if you have pain there is something
    wrong. It may be something wrong with equipment selection, adjustment, fit or it may be
    something wrong with the rider (fitness, preparedness, medical problem, etc). In almost all
    cases, "the pain" is likely to be a correctible problem.

    You're putting words into my mouth. That's really unfair.

    I didn't- and don't- think so. You wrote as if riding a standard bicycle is inevitably painful.
    It isn't. You also wrote as if riding a recumbent is inevitably comfortable. It isn't (as you
    mention below).

    Quoted message said:

    I've been riding regularly for 30 years, experimented with a variety of equipment, fitting
    techniques, and conditioning on uprights before switching. Recumbents *in general* are the only
    bikes that I can ride comfortably for long distances, regardless of conditioning.

    Quoted message said:

    In my observations, one of the greatest causes of "the pain" in riding a standard bike is 50
    year old potbellied men trying to ride in Chris Boardman's position on a bike 4 sizes too small,
    sold to them by the 22 year old Cat 1 racer working part-time at the bike shop so he can buy
    parts cheap.

    Well, that's not the fault of the recumbent folks.

    Umm. Didn't say or imply that it was. Pretty clearly the fault of bike shop sales people who don't
    know how to properly fit bikes to riders for anything other than racing. Although it's also the
    fault of customers who waltz in with Walter Mitty dreams and *want* to buy a bike that's too small
    and is going to be uncomfortable to ride. The wages of reading "Buycycling" too much, I guess.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    I know one person who switched to a recumbent because of neck problems (herniated disk). His
    neck only hurts and his hands only go numb when he hyperextends his neck, so he switched to a
    recumbent and has had not further problems. However, he noted that there's still butt
    discomfort- it's just different than the discomfort sometimes associated with traditional bike
    saddles.

    I can sympathize with that person- I compressed a couple disks in my neck taking a header many
    years ago. I can't hold my head up, even from a moderate "touring" position, for more than an hour
    at a time.

    Yup, it has saved his cycling hobby without having to resort to surgery. There certainly are people
    for whom recumbents work better.

    Quoted message said:

    (I'm aware that there are professional bike fitters. There's also professional recumbent bike
    fitters- but they're few and far between.)

    Now that's interesting. It makes sense, of course; I wonder how well developed the art of fitting a
    recmbent is. I have read of some research into power output, endurance, etc as related to seat
    position (I have a suspicion that there's a higher percentage of recumbent enthusiasts who want to
    quantify things compared to upright riders).

    Quoted message said:

    I'd like to continue this- but I'm off for Cycle Oregon tomorrow morning. I'll be doing a
    leisurely 400 miles worth of riding through the Blue and Wallowa Mountains of Eastern Oregon... on
    my Tour Easy recumbent.

    Enjoy!

  6. Quoted message said:

    Improving the spoke line on outer spokes may increase those residual stresses.

    that's exactly my point.

    Quoted message said:

    Putting the spoke in tension until the area with tensile residual stress yields (stress relieving)
    will reduce those residual stresses to some extent.

    i'd agree, but continued bending in the same mode as that which induced the stress in the first
    place is not going to achieve that result is it? just more of the same...

    also, i think it's worth considering the application of ductile stainless in this situation.
    residual stress considerations are highly relevant for spring steels with their high notch
    sensitivity in fatigue, but that's less of an issue here.

    personally, i do /not/ bend the spokes before i tension - hopefully that way, any elastic stress
    from spoke tension holds the bend in compression counterbalancing residual tensile. if there /is/
    any yielding at the elbow, i just let it happen as part of the build process. can't say i've ever
    had any problems.

    finally, it's worth noting that on [belgian spoke manufacturer] sapim's web site, under their wheel
    build checklist section

    seetool.beindex.php

    they say: "If material is forced while lacing the hub, the spokes can be pulled over causing
    material weakness. The original bend angle of 95° should remain intact."

    Quoted message said:

    Did you criticize him for neglecting work hardening?

    no.

  7. In article said:

    i'd agree, but continued bending in the same mode as that which induced the stress in the first
    place is not going to achieve that result is it?

    I'll have to let the people with Actual Knowledge of the metallurgical and mechanical issues address
    that, but it's an interesting point. I can't help but think that it has been previously considered-
    stress relieving for spokes having been discussed three or four times a year for at least the past
    10 years in this newsgroup.

    Quoted message said:

    also, i think it's worth considering the application of ductile stainless in this situation.
    residual stress considerations are highly relevant for spring steels with their high notch
    sensitivity in fatigue, but that's less of an issue here.

    Stainless spokes seem to have plenty of notch sensitivity, if by that you mean that the spokes tend
    to break if/where they've been notched
    (e.g., by the chain).

    Quoted message said:

    personally, i do /not/ bend the spokes before i tension - hopefully that way, any elastic stress
    from spoke tension holds the bend in compression counterbalancing residual tensile.

    I'm not sure what you mean by "i do /not/ bend the spokes before i tension." Neither do I, except
    sometimes you have to bow a spoke to get it between the others while lacing.

    I don't think that it is possible for spoke tension to hold the bend in compression, by definition.
    Spoke tension is pulling the elbow straight, except that it is supported in the hub flange (which is
    one reason why properly thick spoke flanges and countersunk spoke holes are helpful).

    Quoted message said:

    if there /is/ any yielding at the elbow, i just let it happen as part of the build process. can't
    say i've ever had any problems.

    If your wheels last 50,000 to 100,000 miles and more without spoke breakage, then your build method
    is a success.

  8. jim beam said:
    Quoted message said:

    Improving
    the spoke line on outer spokes may increase those residual stresses.

    that's exactly my point.

    Quoted message said:

    Putting the spoke in tension until the area with tensile residual stress yields (stress
    relieving) will reduce those residual stresses to some extent.

    i'd agree, but continued bending in the same mode as that which induced the stress in the first
    place is not going to achieve that result is it? just more of the same...

    No, the effect of the various stress relief type operations is to put the spoke in a significantly
    higher state of tension than it sees during operation. Any parts of the spoke that exceed the yield
    stress will plastically deform and the stresses in those areas will increase less than the portions
    that remain elastic (even if there is work hardening). When the stress relieving load is removed
    the areas that deformed plastically will have a lower residual stress. Since the plastic
    deformation occurred where the residual tensile stresses were highest, the maximum tensile residual
    stress is lowered.

    The only assumption here is that the tension in the spoke during stress relieving does not make the
    bend in the elbow of the spoke sharper (decrease the angle). If this assumption is true, all changes
    in stress in the spoke during stress relieving are tensile, except where the hub contacts the spoke.
    If the assumption is not true it is only necessary that the tensile stresses are higher than the
    bending stresses (then you could argue about magnitudes). Bending the spoke to straighten the spoke
    line first will reduce or eliminate bending during the stress relieving step.

    The last two paragraphs are a very brief and possibly cryptic description of how stretching can be
    used to relieve residual stresses. If this still does not make sense, look for the reference that
    Mike Prime cited, or I can try to track down an appropriate text.

    Quoted message said:


    also, i think it's worth considering the application of ductile stainless in this situation.
    residual stress considerations are highly relevant for spring steels with their high notch
    sensitivity in fatigue, but that's less of an issue here.

    But not necessarily unimportant. DT and Wheelsmith spokes are very heavily cold worked. They are
    ductile enough, but still fairly notch sensitive in my experience. Rocks and sticks occasionally
    notch or kink the spokes on my MTB wheels.

    Quoted message said:


    personally, i do /not/ bend the spokes before i tension - hopefully that way, any elastic stress
    from spoke tension holds the bend in compression counterbalancing residual tensile. if there /is/
    any yielding at the elbow, i just let it happen as part of the build process. can't say i've ever
    had any problems.

    finally, it's worth noting that on [belgian spoke manufacturer] sapim's web site, under their
    wheel build checklist section

    seetool.beindex.php

    they say: "If material is forced while lacing the hub, the spokes can be pulled over causing
    material weakness. The original bend angle of 95° should remain intact."

    Interesting. The increase in maximum residual stress from bending the spokes to improve the line
    cannot exceed the increase in strength due to work hardening. This is probably pretty small. If
    there is actual material damage due to this bending then the spokes are pretty fragile compared to
    what I have used. I have re-tensioned more OEM wheels than I have built, and all of them appear to
    have had the outside spokes bent against the flange.

    None of my mutterings prove that stress relieving is the most important factor in reducing fatigue
    failures. I am attempting to show that the stress relieving techniques almost certainly reduce
    residual stresses in spokes to some degree. It is well known that residual stresses can have a large
    effect on fatigue life. On the other hand, I can't make sense of your claims about loose spokes
    causing fatigue.

    Dave Korzekwa

  9. Quoted message said:

    No, the effect of the various stress relief type operations is to put the spoke in a significantly
    higher state of tension than it sees during operation. Any parts of the spoke that exceed the
    yield stress will plastically deform and the stresses in those areas will increase less than the
    portions that remain elastic (even if there is work hardening). When the stress relieving load is
    removed the areas that deformed plastically will have a lower residual stress. Since the plastic
    deformation occurred where the residual tensile stresses were highest, the maximum tensile
    residual stress is lowered.

    i'm with you.

    Quoted message said:

    The only assumption here is that the tension in the spoke during stress relieving does not make
    the bend in the elbow of the spoke sharper (decrease the angle). If this assumption is true, all
    changes in stress in the spoke during stress relieving are tensile, except where the hub contacts
    the spoke.

    agreed.

    Quoted message said:

    If the assumption is not true it is only necessary that the tensile stresses are higher than the
    bending stresses (then you could argue about magnitudes).

    Quoted message said:

    *Bending the spoke to straighten the spoke line first will reduce or eliminate bending during the
    stress relieving step.*

    ok, i'm with you in that it eliminates bending during the build, but i'm still stuck on the benefits
    in terms of residual stress. if i bend a beam, then bend it a bit more in the same direction and at
    the same place, that wouldn't relieve residual stress would it? that's what i see the situation to
    be with a spoke. please talk me through it one more time.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    finally, it's worth noting that on [belgian spoke manufacturer] sapim's web site, under their
    wheel build checklist section

    seetool.beindex.php

    they say: "If material is forced while lacing the hub, the spokes can be pulled over causing
    material weakness. The original bend angle of 95° should remain intact."

    Interesting. The increase in maximum residual stress from bending the spokes to improve the line
    cannot exceed the increase in strength due to work hardening. This is probably pretty small. If
    there is actual material damage due to this bending then the spokes are pretty fragile compared to
    what I have used.

    i have a couple of thoughts.

    i've not measured the deformation, but where the spoke hole gets distorted by the spoke tension, i'd
    say the resultant exit angle is closer to 95° than perpendicular. in that respect, i'd say bending
    the spoke prior to tensioning is premature.

    if by "material weakness" they are referring to residual stress, would that also argue against
    bending prior to tension?

    Quoted message said:

    None of my mutterings prove that stress relieving is the most important factor in reducing fatigue
    failures. I am attempting to show that the stress relieving techniques almost certainly reduce
    residual stresses in spokes to some degree. It is well known that residual stresses can have a
    large effect on fatigue life.

    yes, but that effect, as i understand it, is much more important for some classes of materials than
    others. high tensile materials, like springs, are highly sensitive. structural steels much less so.
    a spoke is strong, but as a result of cold work rather than, say, a martensitic microstructure.

    thanks very much for taking the time to respond dave. i'm not trying to split hairs - we are both in
    complete agreement on benefits of the practise. i'm just trying to understand the theory of
    application within the confines of what i know currently and what i may need to learn.

    jb

  10. Bill Bushnell <[email hidden]> wrote:
    : [email hidden] wrote:

    :> You don't have to try everything to form an opinion, especially if you can cite concrete reasons
    :> for that opinion.

    :> An example is, using non-pneumatic tires to avoid flats. I have not tried such tires since the
    :> days of riding a tricycle and an American Flyer wagon and have never used them on a bicycle, yet
    :> I feel competent in explaining why you wouldn't want to use them.

    :> Similarly, I can advise against recumbents for general bicycling, for transportation, touring and
    :> riding trails, as I define it from my own experience.

    : Well done! By juxtaposing these two examples you just might convince the casual reader that
    : serious scientific inquiry and discussion had preceeded your opinion in the latter.

    He only wants to convince you that a similar level of "serious scientific inquiry and discussion"
    has preceded both cases 😉 I think "citing concrete reasons" doesn't necessarily imply "citing
    scientific references".

    : While there may be sound scientific reasoning behind the criticism of a product (e.g. solid tires)
    : or a concept (e.g. the current industry standard disk brake fork-mount) discussed in these forums,
    : I have yet to see similar rigor applied to the discussion of why one should or should not ride a
    : recumbent. All such discussions I have read boil down to personal preference.

    If you look at recumbents as an innovation or concept you notice that they are actually a good bunch
    of different innovations and concepts. Therefore, they can be a very complex and challenging
    discussion subject. Changing an upright design into a recumbent doesn't involve changing just one
    technical feature.

    Maybe recumbents aren't too well researched yet - we lack the solid empirical data to base
    discussions on. Or then it's the complexity of the issue, one study can't cover all the aspects. Or
    then, scientific research is not very helpful when deciding whether to ride recumbents. (How do you
    research whether riding trikes is fun, for example?)

    --
    Risto Varanka | helsinki.fihpv.html varis at no spam please iki fi

  11. Risto Varanka said:

    Maybe recumbents aren't too well researched yet - we lack the solid empirical data to base
    discussions on. Or then it's the complexity of the issue, one study can't cover all the aspects.
    Or then, scientific research is not very helpful when deciding whether to ride recumbents. (How do
    you research whether riding trikes is fun, for example?)

    Maybe, maybe, but lets get back to a more basic question. Why are recumbents so rare in contrast to
    standard bicycles? The research has been made by many bicyclists who discovered they preferred not
    to ride or buy a recumbent. The reasons have been presented often and just as often have been
    rejected by recumbent advocates who say they are invalid.

    Jobst Brandt [email hidden]

  12. jim beam said:
    Quoted message said:

    No, the effect of the various stress relief type operations is to put the spoke in a
    significantly higher state of tension than it sees during operation. Any parts of the spoke that
    exceed the yield stress will plastically deform and the stresses in those areas will increase
    less than the portions that remain elastic (even if there is work hardening). When the stress
    relieving load is removed the areas that deformed plastically will have a lower residual stress.
    Since the plastic deformation occurred where the residual tensile stresses were highest, the
    maximum tensile residual stress is lowered.

    i'm with you.

    Quoted message said:

    The only assumption here is that the tension in the spoke during stress relieving does not make
    the bend in the elbow of the spoke sharper (decrease the angle). If this assumption is true, all
    changes in stress in the spoke during stress relieving are tensile, except where the hub
    contacts the spoke.

    agreed.

    Quoted message said:

    If the assumption is not true it is only necessary that the tensile stresses are higher than
    the bending stresses (then you could argue about magnitudes).

    Quoted message said:

    *Bending the spoke to straighten the spoke line first will reduce or eliminate bending during
    the stress relieving step.*

    ok, i'm with you in that it eliminates bending during the build, but i'm still stuck on the
    benefits in terms of residual stress. if i bend a beam, then bend it a bit more in the same
    direction and at the same place, that wouldn't relieve residual stress would it? that's what i see
    the situation to be with a spoke. please talk me through it one more time.

    When you stress relieve by either Jobst's method, Sheldon's method or walking on the spokes, the
    main effect is to put the spokes in a higher state of tension along the axis of the spoke. These
    loads are probably very ineffective at providing much bending moment at the spoke elbow. If the
    objective is to reduce the cyclic stresses in the spoke during use, then this is what you want. You
    only care about tensile stresses that are varying with spoke tension, and those are the ones that
    will be affected as described above when you raise the spoke tension by laterally deflecting the
    spoke somewhere near the middle of the free span of the spoke.

    [...]

    Quoted message said:


    i've not measured the deformation, but where the spoke hole gets distorted by the spoke tension,
    i'd say the resultant exit angle is closer to 95° than perpendicular. in that respect, i'd say
    bending the spoke prior to tensioning is premature.

    You may have a point, but I doubt the magnitudes of the residual stresses are much different
    either way.

    Quoted message said:

    if by "material weakness" they are referring to residual stress, would that also argue against
    bending prior to tension?

    It is hard to say what they are referring to. Given that most spokes go into machine built wheels
    that are not very durable compared to well built wheels, who knows how they would draw their
    conclusions.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    None of my mutterings prove that stress relieving is the most important factor in reducing
    fatigue failures. I am attempting to show that the stress relieving techniques almost certainly
    reduce residual stresses in spokes to some degree. It is well known that residual stresses can
    have a large effect on fatigue life.

    yes, but that effect, as i understand it, is much more important for some classes of materials
    than others. high tensile materials, like springs, are highly sensitive. structural steels much
    less so. a spoke is strong, but as a result of cold work rather than, say, a martensitic
    microstructure.

    As Mike Prime pointed out, the stresses that drive fatigue don't know whether they are due to
    external loads or internal stresses or the superposition of the two. I tend to think of residual
    stresses as a separate issue from fatigue resistance as a material property.

    Quoted message said:


    thanks very much for taking the time to respond dave. i'm not trying to split hairs - we are both
    in complete agreement on benefits of the practise. i'm just trying to understand the theory of
    application within the confines of what i know currently and what i may need to learn.

    These discussions rarely get to this level of detail, so it was interesting. It is also hard to
    describe some of this stuff with text only. I have been lurking off and on here for a long time, but
    I rarely take the time to get involved.

    Dave Korzekwa

  13. may have said:
    Risto Varanka said:

    Maybe recumbents aren't too well researched yet - we lack the solid empirical data to base
    discussions on. Or then it's the complexity of the issue, one study can't cover all the aspects.
    Or then, scientific research is not very helpful when deciding whether to ride recumbents. (How
    do you research whether riding trikes is fun, for example?)

    Maybe, maybe, but lets get back to a more basic question. Why are recumbents so rare in contrast to
    standard bicycles? The research has been made by many bicyclists who discovered they preferred not
    to ride or buy a recumbent. The reasons have been presented often and just as often have been
    rejected by recumbent advocates who say they are invalid.

    I think that for the majority of the potential market, the reason can be summed up in one
    word: cost.

    I've ridden three recumbents that belong to friends or acquaintances, and while I would not consider
    any of those bikes an acceptable replacement for a conventional design in many applications, I would
    still very much like to have one for just plain pleasure riding. But I don't have one, and I am not
    likely to buy one. The reason is simple; I can buy at least three good conventional bikes for the
    price of a bottom-of-the-line recumbent. It's just not worth the expense for a ride that's not
    versatile enough.

    On the other hand, if I were going to be doing any long-distance touring, I would probably consider
    a recumbent anyway.

    Most of the recumbent riders I know have no interest in either speed or off-road capabilities, and
    several of them use their bikes for their daily work commute. (One works at a refinery, by the way.)
    From where I'm sitting, the majority of the US market for bikes in general is not willing to pay
    more than $200 for a bike of any kind, and the cheapest recumbent of my experience is well over
    three times that price; even used ones typically fetch $350 or more. As such, I don't believe that
    anyone has any real idea of what the demand level for recumbents would be if there was a unit that
    was priced under the $200 level...and given the general public's current (not unfounded) infatuation
    with MTBs, I doubt that any mass-market maker is likely to test that price point with an inexpensive
    recumbent entry.

    (I will note that a crummy full-suspension MTB can now be had for under $70 at Wal-Mart. It has
    abysmal rims, a plastic rear der, and other antistunning misengineering features, but I have no
    doubt that it sells like crazy to people who are not familiar with the hardware.)

    --
    My email address is antispammed; pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail. Yes, I have a killfile. If I
    don't respond to something, it's also possible that I'm busy.

  14. Quoted message said:

    Maybe, maybe, but lets get back to a more basic question. Why are recumbents so rare in contrast to
    standard bicycles?

    Why are unanodised 36-hole rims so rare in contrast to what are now standard rims?
    --
    David Damerell <[email hidden]> Kill the tomato!

  15. Risto Varanka said:

    Maybe recumbents aren't too well researched yet - we lack the solid empirical data to base
    discussions on. Or then it's the complexity of the issue, one study can't cover all the aspects.
    Or then, scientific research is not very helpful when deciding whether to ride recumbents. (How do
    you research whether riding trikes is fun, for example?)

    Recumbents are bicycles. They share most of the same componentry: brakes, shifters, pedals, cranks,
    chain-driven sprockets, wheels, fork (in the case of all but tadpole trikes), and they are driven by
    human power. Most of the technical discussions occurring in this forum are as applicable to
    recumbents as to upright bicycles. Recumbents vary most significantly in the seat, handlebar, and
    frame. They also lend themselves more naturally to the addition of fairings.

    What is less well-known about them are the ergonomic factors, the human-machine interface. We hear
    about proper fit on an upright bike. What about proper fit on a recumbent? With so many different
    seating options, can one establish rules of proper fit? While there are researchers and builders of
    recumbents who have a store of knowledge specific to the designs they have studied and/or built,
    this information is not common knowledge within the bicycle industry.

    Some say the upright bike is at an evolutionary dead-end, that improvements are incremental at best.
    While this may be true, the recumbent market currently offers many different designs, none of which
    have established market dominance.

    Are we seeing a short-lived renaissance of a disproven technology or a coming of age of a concept
    born ahead of its time?

    I don't believe recumbents will replace upright bicycles, yet I don't believe recumbents will
    diminish into obscurity as they did in the '30's but rather gradually increase in popularity as
    their distribution becomes more widespread and as improved economies of scale make the higher
    performance designs more affordable. But, I also believe that the ultimate size of the recumbent
    market will grow inversely with the number of distinct designs (seating configurations and
    aerodynamic profiles) that gain widest acceptance.

    Jobst Brandt said:

    Why are recumbents so rare in contrast to standard bicycles? [...] The reasons have been presented
    often and just as often have been rejected by recumbent advocates who say they are invalid.

    The logic I hear often is that one doesn't see recumbents on the road (rare as hen's teeth),
    therefore people must not be buying them (little or no market), therefore they're no good for
    general bicycling.

    But, is the market a wise judge? By appealing to the market for guidance in choosing one kind of
    bicycle over another we might observe that in new bicycles and in many on the road the lugged steel
    frame and fork and box section rim with 36 spokes has been replaced by the carbon fiber frame and
    fork and low spoke count wheels with deep profile rims. Without discussing the technical merits of
    either, shall we then conclude that these new designs are better than the older designs?

    Recumbents have a long if little known history. From the late 1930's until the late 1970's recumbent
    design was in a state of arrested development. Only in the last fifteen years have efforts been made
    to address some of the more obvious shortcomings: weight and cost. Aging baby-boomers may give the
    recumbent market a boost in the next several years, bringing economies of scale to production of
    recumbents and to some of their more specialized componentry.

    While I have ridden recumbents for the last several years often in preference to an upright bicycle
    for transportation and recreational riding on both paved and unpaved roads, I still prefer an
    upright bicycle in some situations: short in-town trips, trips that involve common carrier
    transport, and trips that require frequently carrying the bicycle over or around obstacles.

    Jobst Brandt continues:

    Quoted message said:

    The research has been made by many bicyclists who discovered they preferred not to ride or buy a
    recumbent.

    Certainly there are many who tried a recumbent and found it did not please them. But, there are also
    many who are curious about recumbents but who don't know where to find one to test ride or to
    purchase. How many bike stores that sell high-end road bikes also sell high-end recumbents? For most
    customers the choice is made before they even see a recumbent. There is no convenient point of
    purchase and no local support infrastructure. Mail order is a possibility, but then the customer is
    on his own or must prevail upon the local bike shop for servicing.

    We don't see many strong cyclists on recumbents perhaps because those who are talented in youth find
    their support network in a local racing club where deviation from the UCI standard bicycle is
    frowned-upon if not proscribed. Some former bike racers have dabbled in recumbents, adding a
    recumbent to their stable, but by the time this happens, they are usually past the peak of their
    youthful fitness, and their new avocation goes mostly unnoticed.

    Many new recumbent cyclists don't make it past the initial learning curve: training the muscles to
    work differently and learning to balance and steer with confidence. I suspect cyclists who have
    significant prior experience on an upright bicycle discover a steep learning curve as many of the
    accustomed bike-handling skills must to some extent be re-learned. Most new recumbent cyclists
    require several months to acquire these skills to a high degree of proficiency, far longer than a
    typical test ride in a bike store parking lot, and often longer than an experienced upright cyclist
    is willing to endure. Moreover, to maintain proper conditioning on a recumbent, as on an upright,
    requires that it be ridden frequently.

    But, I believe most of the reasons people stop riding recumbent or not start in the first place are
    social. The recumbent looks different, a black sheep in the fold. Some people just don't like the
    look of 'em, or they feel uncomfortable sticking out in public, bystanders staring with mouths
    agape, the questions, the occasional mockery, and that's reason enough.

    Recumbents, even high-end models start with a weight penalty compared to similarly priced road bikes
    (e.g. chain, seat, handlebars). To make up for that many recumbent designs place the rider in a more
    aerodynamic position or employ a fairing. The result is a bike that results in speeds generally
    slower than an upright bike where speeds fall below those for which aerodynamics are significant
    (~8-12 mph) and faster otherwise. This leads to a rubber-band or leap-frogging effect when riding
    with a group of upright cyclists of similar ability, which is ultimately unsatisfying if the reason
    for cycling is primarily social.

    Aerodynamic recumbents offer a poor wind shadow for drafting making social group riding or
    pacelining difficult with other upright cyclists. Even between various models of recumbents
    performance varies significantly. Socially, recumbents work best when riding in groups of other
    similar recumbents or when riding alone.

    In spite of these disadvantages, I enjoy my seat time on a recumbent more than my saddle time on an
    upright bike. Riding the roads I used to ride on my upright bike becomes a new experience on a
    recumbent. With a fairing installed, the increased speed on level to downhill paved roads is a
    thrill, well worth the effort of carrying the extra few pounds up the hill. I also like the
    protection from the elements that a fairing provides--no more sunburn. And, while I still enjoy
    riding in the hills, riding in flatter areas is now much more enjoyable than it ever was on an
    upright bike. A recumbent is a viable alternative to the cyclist who is aware of its disadvantages,
    who is willing to get through the learning curve, who has an independent and open mind, and who is
    looking for a new and different human-powered experience.

    --
    Bill Bushnell

  16. Quoted message said:

    Aerodynamic recumbents offer a poor wind shadow for drafting...

    I think a more aerodynamic bike is perfect for pulling other bikes...

  17. In article said:
    Risto Varanka said:

    Maybe recumbents aren't too well researched yet - we lack the solid empirical data to base
    discussions on. Or then it's the complexity of the issue, one study can't cover all the aspects.
    Or then, scientific research is not very helpful when deciding whether to ride recumbents. (How
    do you research whether riding trikes is fun, for example?)

    Recumbents are bicycles. They share most of the same componentry: brakes, shifters, pedals,
    cranks, chain-driven sprockets, wheels, fork (in the case of all but tadpole trikes), and they are
    driven by human power. Most of the technical discussions occurring in this forum are as applicable
    to recumbents as to upright bicycles. Recumbents vary most significantly in the seat, handlebar,
    and frame. They also lend themselves more naturally to the addition of fairings.

    What is less well-known about them are the ergonomic factors, the human-machine interface. We hear
    about proper fit on an upright bike. What about proper fit on a recumbent? With so many different
    seating options, can one establish rules of proper fit? While there are researchers and builders
    of recumbents who have a store of knowledge specific to the designs they have studied and/or
    built, this information is not common knowledge within the bicycle industry.

    two-wheeled bents are pretty well-evolved designs. If you look at the spread of bent designs within
    each niche (lowracer, short wheelbase, long wheelbase, fully faired racer), the bikes are fairly
    close in layout, and each is built for a particular compromise (short wheelbase offers decent
    commuter virtues in a maneuverable package, etc.)

    For a few people, bents have an important ergonomic advantage. But to hear tales of "recumbutt", it
    sounds like the wedgie suits some butts better than the bent.

    The essential performance trade-off of any bent versus an upright bike is an aerodynamic advantage
    for considerable climbing and sprinting disadvantages (can't stand, and with rare exceptions, they
    weigh more).

    For most riders, climbing is harder than going really fast, and for most riders, hills are the
    biggest impediment to performance. The shorter the distance, the slower the ride, and the more hills
    there are, the worse the bent will do. Worst-case scenario would be a short, urban commute with lots
    of traffic-light sprints and climbs. I drop to 10 km/h on the steepest pitch of my commute climbs; I
    don't think a bent would help, even though I hit 60-70 km/h on the descent.

    Where you do see bent riders is out on long, flat rides. Which is great. That's where adding a
    couple pounds of fairing looks like a great compromise. But the Earth is not flat, and when the
    ground turns upwards, bents become tiresome.

    Quoted message said:

    Some say the upright bike is at an evolutionary dead-end, that improvements are incremental at
    best. While this may be true, the recumbent market currently offers many different designs, none
    of which have established market dominance.

    Many designs, but they're largely settling into particular niches, and those niche designs are
    stabilizing.

    Would choose a SWB with nose and tail fairings,

    --
    Ryan Cousineau, [email hidden] sfu.ca~rcousine President, Fabrizio Mazzoleni Fan Club

  18. "Mike S." <mikeshaw2@coxDOTnet> wrote in message news:Ge18b.51306$cj1.10150@fed1read06...

    Quoted message said:


    That's because for the majority of riders, the 32 hole anodized offerings are perfectly fine. Its
    the retro-grouches and extreme weight cases that "need" the 36 hole non-anodized rims.

    Having said that, I do miss the ride of the MA40s...

    I guess one good myth deserves another.

  19. "Bill Bushnell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    A recumbent is a viable alternative to the cyclist who is aware of its disadvantages, who is
    willing to get through the learning curve, who has an independent and open mind, and who is
    looking for a new and different human-powered experience.

    Of course it is, but for most riders, it's a solution looking for a problem. I have questioned and
    listened carefully to those who have ridden them for a significant period, both those who stuck with
    them and those who didn't, I came away unsold. Buying one myself and riding it for several months
    minimum just isn't worth the (substantial) investment given the likelihood of a significant upside.

  20. "Ryan Cousineau" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    In article <[email hidden]>,

    Where you do see bent riders is out on long, flat rides. Which is great. That's where adding a
    couple pounds of fairing looks like a great compromise. But the Earth is not flat, and when the
    ground turns upwards, bents become tiresome.

    Especially when you think about the headwinds typical in flat areas, faired bents look good,
    especially if there are no structures chopping up the inevitable crosswinds, but how many of us ride
    in those conditions?

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