Need Help, will do anything to improve!!

[gBeAr]

Hey guys I need some help!! I have been social riding for a few years and have recently tried to up my level and speed. I have been riding with guys a lot better than me but am failing to finish a 1hr ride. Once the top speed hits over 48km p/h my heart rate spikes and I loose all power/breathe. Was wondering what I need to do to increase this area of my cyling

 

[maxroadrash]

48 kph? Get real.

 

[gBeAr]

Originally Posted by maxroadrash
48 kph? Get real.

Hey Maxroadrash, you obviously are not a keen/competitive cyclist. Surges in criterium races hit up close to 60km p/h when the wind is in your favour. I am not looking for smart-alec responses, i am looking for genuine coaching tips from people who are obvious experts in this field.

 

[bathtub95]

Originally Posted by gBeAr

Hey Maxroadrash, you obviously are not a keen/competitive cyclist. Surges in criterium races hit up close to 60km p/h when the wind is in your favour. I am not looking for smart-alec responses, i am looking for genuine coaching tips from people who are obvious experts in this field.

I'm not even that competitive of a cyclist and I can sit on 45-48km/h with a nice tailwind! Take the tailwind away and I'm buggered haha, but there are a lot faster guys than me out there.

 

[maxroadrash]

Originally Posted by gBeAr

Hey Maxroadrash, you obviously are not a keen/competitive cyclist. Surges in criterium races hit up close to 60km p/h when the wind is in your favour. I am not looking for smart-alec responses, i am looking for genuine coaching tips from people who are obvious experts in this field.

Well excuse me gBeAr but you start by saying you're a "social" rider and you are having a hard time keeping up with the starting speed of a protour lead out. Sounds like a bit of a put on wouldn't you agree?
If you really want some advise from the people that frequent this forum who REALLY know their stuff, you would do well to post a little more specific detail.
Good luck

 

[maydog]

At 48kph (30mph) most riders are going to peak. The stronger riders have a higher threshold for pain and can sustain it longer; I don't know of anyone in my riding circles that can hold a 30mph pace very long.

You will have to pay your dues to ride with the cool kids. Probably the best thing you can do is to keep going out with the stronger riders - hang on until you give out. Ride at least 4 times a week and get good rest in between.

Nutrition is also important. Loose extra lbs if you have any and eat what you need for energy and recovery.

 

[gBeAr]

Originally Posted by maydog
At 48kph (30mph) most riders are going to peak. The stronger riders have a higher threshold for pain and can sustain it longer; I don't know of anyone in my riding circles that can hold a 30mph pace very long.

You will have to pay your dues to ride with the cool kids. Probably the best thing you can do is to keep going out with the stronger riders - hang on until you give out. Ride at least 4 times a week and get good rest in between.

Nutrition is also important. Loose extra lbs if you have any and eat what you need for energy and recovery.

Thanks Maydog, that is a little more like the response i was after. As for nutrition, i ride in the morning at 6am with a group of 15 riders (mostly A and B grade crit racers). Would you suggest eating before and what type of food exactly. Do you also take any supplements to assist with performance. At this stage i am loosing the unwanted Kgs but am finding it hard to perform and recover with a low carb diet.Your opinion would be greatly appreciated

 

[maydog]

I know that I am not at my strongest early in the morning. Though, I have done a few races and century rides in the early hours. Typically I keep my breakfast light. A few slices of toast with nutella and milk or juice and then a sport drink or two for rides less than 2 hours.

When used correctly caffeine is an effective supplement - probably especially helpful for an early AM ride. I abstain from caffiene except for 1 or rarely 2 intense rides per week. Even then I keep the dose fairly low - below 100mg, for me is 1mg per kg of mass. People's sensitivity to it varies so you may need to experiment.

Other than that, I take a daily multivitamin and omega 3 / fish oil supplement. I also take a glucosamine due to an arthritic knee.

During the season, I cycle on and off with creatine monohydrate - it seems like it might help a little, but the stuff I take has some stimulants and lots of sugar so I use it more as a sports drink.

 

[maydog]

Don't overlook strategy as a part of staying with such a large group. Dole your energy out in small portions, if you pull, make it short, be rested and ready for the surges. Get to know the riders you are with and find someone or a group just a bit stronger than yourself to hang with.

 

[gBeAr]

Hey maydog, here is an example of what i do in a week: your opinion will be greatly appreciated:
Sunday: long ride (4 hours)
Monday: rest day, core session
Tuesday: 1 hour sprint (long circuit), body pump class (aerobics)
Wednesday: rest day
Thursday: 1 hour sprint (long circuit), core session
Friday: 1 hour sprint (short circuit, 4 10km laps)
Saturday: Criterium race

i pick up an altitude machine tomorrow and want to include wind trainer sprints. your help would be of great value. My goal is to reah A grade in 2 years. i am currently c grade, but a very competitive c grader

 

[swampy1970]

If you want to go faster on the bike - make all your efforts revolve around the bike.

Unless you have weird muscle imbalances or other physical therapy reasons to specifically target core or a given muscle group with exercises, I'd hedge my bets and bank everything on bike specific training. If you're starting off, just ride. Have fun and as maydog pointed out, don't get too enthusiastic about riding on the front of the bunch. If you do a turn on the front with a group of riders better than you, do it quick and get off the front before you feel winded.

Your training has no long hard efforts. When you say '1 hour sprint' do you mean riding at a pace that you can just hold for an hour - a pace that would leave you wishing the last 15 minutes really didn't happen. If so then you're good. If you meant 1 hour and a bunch of random sprint then you're wasting your time. Take that hour and within it do two 20 minute time trials ridden with an effort that'll leave you fighting to sustain the last few minutes if ridden evenly. The warm up is important as is the cool down afterwards. The rest between the two sessions is just that - rest - don't get delusions of grandeur and think that spending the last 30 seconds of rest getting upto speed is a "help." If you do the efforts honestly, you'll need every second of rest.

For breakfast, I dig oatmeal, coffee and on an early ride I'll have some Hammer gel about 5 minutes before the off. After that, if it's a hard ride I'd consider taking about 200Kcals of my favorite energy drink, either Hammer perpetuum or heed every hour.

 

[scottz123]

Originally Posted by swampy1970
If you want to go faster on the bike - make all your efforts revolve around the bike.

Unless you have weird muscle imbalances or other physical therapy reasons to specifically target core or a given muscle group with exercises, I'd hedge my bets and bank everything on bike specific training. If you're starting off, just ride. Have fun and as maydog pointed out, don't get too enthusiastic about riding on the front of the bunch. If you do a turn on the front with a group of riders better than you, do it quick and get off the front before you feel winded.

Your training has no long hard efforts. When you say '1 hour sprint' do you mean riding at a pace that you can just hold for an hour - a pace that would leave you wishing the last 15 minutes really didn't happen. If so then you're good. If you meant 1 hour and a bunch of random sprint then you're wasting your time. Take that hour and within it do two 20 minute time trials ridden with an effort that'll leave you fighting to sustain the last few minutes if ridden evenly. The warm up is important as is the cool down afterwards. The rest between the two sessions is just that - rest - don't get delusions of grandeur and think that spending the last 30 seconds of rest getting upto speed is a "help." If you do the efforts honestly, you'll need every second of rest.

For breakfast, I dig oatmeal, coffee and on an early ride I'll have some Hammer gel about 5 minutes before the off. After that, if it's a hard ride I'd consider taking about 200Kcals of my favorite energy drink, either Hammer perpetuum or heed every hour.

+1

http://www.hunterallenpowerblog.com/2010/12/next-level.html

 

[Felt_Rider]

Originally Posted by scottz123

+1

http://www.hunterallenpowerblog.com/2010/12/next-level.html

Scott, I like the idea of the "next level", but shouldn't it come with a warning disclaimer?

I was interested in Hunter Allen's concept a couple of years ago, but that was a bit too much weekly TSS for my level or ability. I noticed on your other thread you are a high level competitor and I would think you have the genetic ability to cope with a program as good as the "next level." I had read other forums that had the genetic ability and time available and thought it was a tough program.

I like the program though in concept and wish I had the ability and time available to cope with that sort of training load.

 

[Felt_Rider]

I wrote my post this morning in haste trying to get out the door and cannot edit.

I am in agreement with others here that the OP may fair better in improving that fitness with sustained efforts at level since it appears that all the efforts apart from the group ride are short duration. Though the "next level" seems to be a really nice challenge it may be too far to jump for some of us and for the OP. Like swampy mentioned the OP may do well to increase session duration, but take it week to week and monitor the training stress load as duration is increased.

 

[scottz123]

Originally Posted by Felt_Rider

Scott, I like the idea of the "next level", but shouldn't it come with a warning disclaimer?

I was interested in Hunter Allen's concept a couple of years ago, but that was a bit too much weekly TSS for my level or ability. I noticed on your other thread you are a high level competitor and I would think you have the genetic ability to cope with a program as good as the "next level." I had read other forums that had the genetic ability and time available and thought it was a tough program.

I like the program though in concept and wish I had the ability and time available to cope with that sort of training load.

I see your point. Maybe think about applying just some of #2,3&4 below?
http://www.bikerumor.com/2012/11/02/peaks-coaching-take-your-performance-to-the-next-level/

This may help also
http://www.fascatcoaching.com/sweetspotpartdeux.html

 

[swampy1970]

Thanks Maydog, that is a little more like the response i was after. As for nutrition, i ride in the morning at 6am with a group of 15 riders (mostly A and B grade crit racers). Would you suggest eating before and what type of food exactly. Do you also take any supplements to assist with performance. At this stage i am loosing the unwanted Kgs but am finding it hard to perform and recover with a low carb diet.Your opinion would be greatly appreciated 

Re: your last comment. If you're in the market for losing a ton of weight (more than 15lbs) then it'd serve you well to maybe change your riding calendar for the next month or two and do more L2 sessions with a bit of L3 at the end. It's about that time of year for this anyway. Use that time of fairly stress free cycling to work on your position too. On the flat at those speed mentioned keeping low, elbows tucked in and comfy is key but it doesn't happen overnight. Gains from a well sorted position can be significant depending on what your position is like now. Less weigh often makes it easier to be comfy when riding low and from experience I can definitely say the "saddle area" definitely loves me more when I'm leaner than fatter. Ditch the social winter club runs in favor or 3 hour hard "kitchen sink" rides - Hunter Allen has some good stuff on training peaks and take a look for an PowerPoint presentation that Andy Coggan did about the demands of the individual pursuit. That training would fit in well for crit racing. You might change a few bits in the last few months but you'd definitely be much better for following something like that. While you might think that L2 isn't all that intense and couldn't possibly help you with riding at 48kph, nothing could be further from the truth. Hours of L2 bordering L3 are the key to being able to repeatedly hit the big numbers and still survive in races. For inspiration, pick a cycling idol - look at their style. There's a common theme between guys like Anquetil, Merckx, DeVlamnick, Moser, LeMond, Hinault, Cancellara, Boonen, Martin, Wiggo ... All lads that's are fast on the flat and look low, fast and comfortable. You can get the low and comfy taken care of fairly quickly and doing so will save a ton of watts - the really fast part, that requires a bit more effort and a lot of power.

 

[scottz123]

Joe Friel on losing weight and power
http://www.joefrielsblog.com/2011/09/question-on-power-weight.html

 

[Felt_Rider]

gBeAr,
Each of us have to make some hard choices based on our individual schedules, current performance levels, goals etc. and I had to make a similar choice a couple years ago in the manner that swampy suggests where I thought it best to step out of the group rides because I was getting dropped on every single ride. Though my level of performance was well under the OP's level riding with A & B type cyclists it is still relative.

It was a really hard choice to make at the time, but now that I have had a couple of years changing the structure of my training to a lot more solo endurance oriented goals things have tremendously improved. I do a lot more longer sustained efforts at level and on Saturday's in milder temperatures my ride typically hits 5 hours with a block or two of L3 and a lot of sustained L2. By going solo I am feeling every pedal stroke of that 5 hour ride. I feel every ounce of wind. There is no drafting and I try to keep my stops to just a minute or two.

This year I have come back to a few of those spirited group rides with the same bunch of guys and gals. Where I once getting dropped in the first 20 miles of a crit like paced 60 mile ride I have now finished in the breakaway group and have been in the first few entering into the parking lot. All these guys that first thought I was nuts going off doing my own thing solo with a power meter as a guide was practicing some sort of voodoo type training, but now I am hearing a lot more, "whatever you are doing sure seems to be working."

It's just typical things that we see on these boards and what others have suggested. My weekday time is limited so there is a lot of L3/SST/L4 sustained efforts and I rarely do anything less than a 20 minute interval. Weekend's I try to do mainly endurance rides and will do a group ride if it suits my goals. If the group gets too frisky and it causes me to gain too much TSS that may disrupt the next training session, I will drop off the back of the group on purpose and ride my own pace to suit my TSS limit for the day. Where I was severely lacking that endurance to hang on now I feel pretty good about it with this particular group. However, it is not good enough to hang with A level riders so I still have to stay with this schedule and keep working that valuable endurance portion.

But it really comes down to making some hard choices and deciding if continuing with the group rides is helping or hurting your own performance gains.