Need Advice---Knee problem

"Les Wright" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

April 6th ran a 10K, the next day I could hardly walk--extreme pain behind
the knee. Nothing found after an x-ray and MRI. Lot of popping around the
knee and then can walk without pain for awhile. When sitting for a period
of time the pain is back when I stand up to walk. The pain is behind the
knee. Any help would be appreciated.

Les

There's only one thing to do Les, amputate it. Preferably at home with
a chansaw, and live on the web so we can watch. But either way it must
be done, and the sooner the better before any of these incompetent
fools can give you bad advice. Trust me on this.

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In article <[email hidden]>,

Les Wright said:

April 6th ran a 10K, the next day I could hardly walk--extreme pain behind
the knee. Nothing found after an x-ray and MRI. Lot of popping around the
knee and then can walk without pain for awhile. When sitting for a period
of time the pain is back when I stand up to walk. The pain is behind the
knee. Any help would be appreciated.

Les

Les,

Roll the quads. Check out http://www.mindfulness.com/of5.asp

The second picture you can roll on the ground on a piece of PVC or pipe
or broom handle.

You're getting the muscle to relax and also getting the fascia to let
go.

Some previous posts that may help:

Rolfing, Heller Work and any work that deals with the connective
tissue: fascia works on letting the fascia release from where it may be
adhering or has shortened when there was muscle damage.

Release the fascia, massage out the knotted areas in the muscle and
then begain to release/stretch the muscles that have been constricted
and unable to let go due to the fascial constriction or the scar tissue
in the muscle fibers.

If you open you hand and keep it open while trying to close it you'll
get a sense of what it means to be unable to stretch a weight bearing
muscle.

Also the reason one's hams might be difficult to stretch is because
the antagonist muscle group, in this case the Quads are contracting and
only semi-relaxing which means the hamstring has to work against a
resistant antagonistic muscle.

If you stop resisting with the open hand, when you close the hand the
hand the antagonistic muscles relax.

Ozzie

In health and on the run,
Ozzie Gontang
Maintainer - rec.running FAQ
Director, San Diego Marathon Clinic, est. 1975

Mindful Running: http://www.mindfulness.com/mr.asp
http://www.faqs.org/faqs/running-faq/

Some previous posts that might be of help in your thinking about your
knee, which most often than not is caused by the quads or the
hamstrings being too tight.

Post #1

Quoted message said:

Hi,
I am looking for a bit of advice, I have recently started to increase
my mileage (outdoors, mostly on road) and in the last month or so my
right knee has started to give me grief after running. Its a generally
feeling of stiffness, slight discomfort not localized in any particular
place but across the whole knee. It is particularly noticeable when
going down stairs. It doesn't give me any problems when running but a
couple of hours after/next day it seems to stiffen up. From what i've
read it seems to be "runners knee", I think I roll my right foot more
than the left but whether that is the root cause I am not sure.
I have read some of Ozzie's posts on this or similar, (Sept 1st on
rolling pins and facia release) and that is a long term cure/relief,
what I was wonder is what I should do now?

Stop running for a couple of weeks.
Cut down on my running.
Only run on soft surfaces or treadmills.
Wear a (neoprene) knee support.
Seek medical advice.
or none of the above.

Any advice or help would be gratefully received.

Neil Riddoch

Neil,

The rolling of the quads or massaging them is extremely helpful in
loosening the quad muscle so that it can relax and release. Once that
happens, the muscles relaxes and takes the pressure off the tendon
which then takes the pressure off the knee.

As I've mentioned in other posts, during a training run, I may stop 6
to 10 times to keep loosening the quads or hamstrings.

Freeing the quads and working on the hamstring by using the edge of a
chair on them or sitting on a tennis ball or later a baseball as a way
to accupressure the hamstrings will do more for the release of tendons
around the knee.

Remember muscles relax and contract. If they only partially relax,
then the tendon has to take up that tension. Tendons can stretch but
they're not suppose to. It's the muscles that relax and contract.
Loosen that which is suppose to relax and unnecessary tension to the
tendon disappears.

If you are hitting on the back of the heel of the shoe as you run, as
in heel striker, then you are giving your joints a beating. We're back
to lifting the knees and marching in place to see what running is
about. If you are lifting your center of gravity with each step more
than is needed, then you are coming back down to earth with a rather
hard jar to the knees. If you are landing on the back of the heel of
the shoe, they your running is a deceleration with each step because of
the overstride. Overstride defined as your foot is landing in front of
your center of gravity.

Don't know how much running you're doing so don't know if it's about
cutting down. Practice lifting the knees as in marching in place and
lean from the ankle. Land softly ball then heel. As soon as the heel
touches that triggers the lifting of the other knee. The transition
means you don't have to jump up and down with each step.

I'm for running on uneven ground so as to get the foot/ankle and leg
able to do what they're suppose to do, adjust. I have an article
somewhere that talks about FSOS (Flat Surface Overuse Syndrome)

We'll be watching as you play with finding out what works for you. As
mentioned many times. My stuff is folklore. If it works for you, use
it. If it doesn't don't give it any (read: ZERO) energy and find
someone that does make sense and whose folklore works for you. And
when you find that, come back and share it with me and the others so
that we can educate ourselves better. And finally when you can't find
any good folklore, create what works for you and then share it back
here at rec.running for all of us to play with and test and experiment
with.

Post #2

Jerry Freedman said:

I wrote here a few weeks ago. I had just started running and had a bad cramp
in on calf(soleus) and achilles tendinitis in the other. Ozzie replied
(thanks again)along with others who pointed me to Ozzie's stuff. I took a
few weeks off, did all the stretches, the marching exercises, the "stirrup"
squat and started back running (quietly). The good news is that my calf
problems are gone. Even with the running my AT gets better everyday. The
question I have is about my quads. To run quietly ( as recommended) with a
ball heel strike I find I have to maintain a sort of crouch. This is very
hard on my quads. I am doing 2 minutes run/1 minute walk for 20 minutes and
my quads can barely take it. Is this something I work through? Is it a
technique problem? I already lift weights including squats and deadlifts..

Jerry Freedman

Jerry,

The second picture at http://www.mindfulness.com/of5.asp where the
people are on hands and feet with the quads across the lower railing of
a hand rail would be a way to massage out the quads. You can use a
rolling pin on the ground or a piece of PVC, inch and a half or two
inch. Most of the weight is on the forearms and toes and knees.
Gradually you allow the railing/rolling pin/PVC to sink into the quads
as you relax and allow the quads to let go but taking weight off the
forearms and toes and knees. Do it lovingly and gradually.

Then you can begin to roll forward or backward to work the quads loose
always keeping most of the weight on the feet, knees and
forearms/hands. Also continue to breathe and keep the face and
shoulders relaxed otherwise you're transferring the tension from one
part of your body to another. The various techniques of breathing used
in helping women prepare for the birthing process follow the same idea
of keeping the body relaxed completely.

Regarding loosening up the hamstrings to release the quads more, here's
a piece from a previous post:

When sprinting, the quads(antagonists) get overstretched by the
hamstrings and gluts (agonists). I think I read in John Jesse that
hams and/or gluts account for 55% of the forward thrust when sprinting.
As they contract to catapult the body forward, the quads and the
illiopsoas are suppose to be relaxing and stretching to their max. But
if one's posture is prone to slouching, then the psoas is shortened
and when overstretched as happens in sprinting, it contracts or
tightens to protect itself. That tightening when joined by the
Illiacus is deep and often one feels it in the origin of the illiacus
at the top of the illiac crest of the pelvis. It may be the symptom of
the hamstrings having also tightened because they were strained because
the quads only partially relaxed when they quads were to have been
totally relaxed.

So. Get two baseballs. Or more gently start with two tennis balls.

Sit on a chair and let the tennis balls rest in the middle of the
hamstring. Or you can go up toward the sitz bones of the pelvis and
roll across the tennis balls by moving your body side to side over the
tennis balls. Up toward the sitz bones you'll feel yourself going over
tendons, feels like going over pieces of rope. Just sitting on the
tennis balls can act almost like an accupressure which can let the
muscle's tight spot or trigger point relax.

If you want to see how tight one of the hams is, sit on the EDGE of the
chair. One leg has the foot on the ground with the foot under the
knee, as most of of sit anyway. The other leg is out straight resting
on the heel. Close to a 45 degree angle between the ground and the
leg. Stay slouched and lift up that straightened leg. Now sit up
straight so that you are sitting on your sitz bones and the body is
erect. Now lift up your leg and you'll see that it's harder to lift up
the leg because the lifting muscle illiopsoas has to now work against
your hamstring which has been stretched by you sitting up straight.

So work on the hamstrings and loosen them by massage with the tennis
balls and them gradually go to the baseballs.

Also practice sitting up a quarter of an inch straighter during your
day. Remind yourself to do it ten times a day and know that it will
only last 20 to 30 seconds each time. This way you're not straining
the hams or the psoas and gradually you'll elongate those muscles. But
they're much easier to elongate if you're doing the rolling with the
tennis and/or baseballs when you're sitting at your desk at your
computer. Sit in a chair which has no back and no arms, so that you
are practicing the erect posture of a good runner. Gradually as you
stretch the hams, and psoas by good posture, it will effect your
running so that the tone of the quads, hams and gluts will be such that
their range of motion doesn't restrict the range of motion of the
agonist muscle group(s).

Let us know how you continue to progress.

Ozzie

In article <[email hidden]>, Wawa

Quoted message said:

"Peter Ashby" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Wawa said:

My problem is that after about 20-30 mins, my knees start to get stiff

and

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

lock up. Then by 1 hr 40, they are really quite painful, and if I squat
down, I can feel how tight they are because I can only just bend them
completely. I don't want to do myself any permament damage, so I want

to

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know if this is likely to ease up, or if there are any regular stretches

or

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Quoted message said:

supplements that I can use to stop the problem. I already have a decent
pair of running shoes which are only 2 months old.

This could indicate a number of things, including fluid buildup in the
knee. I would recommend you cease the long distances for a while. Try
doing a few much shorter runs more often, for a few weeks and then try
gradually increasing the distance again. Also if you can stick to softer
tow paths or parks that might help too. If the knees continue to be bad
I would get your GP to refer you to a physio for further investigation.

I have sent an entry in to the marathon, and if I don't increase my time by
10 mins a week, I won't be ready! I am very busy with uni work, pub work,
squash and golf, so don't have time to do any shorter runs during the week.
Are there no stretches that I could do to strenghen the knee?

Quoted message said:

By decent shoes, do you mean ones bought in a running shop or a pair of
'trainers'? Some manufacturers do two versions of shoes, a street and a