Motorised?

Chris Malcolm said:

Stuart Millington said:

Does anyone here actually use any form of motor assistance - Or should
I be asking in us.fat.people.cycling? ;-)

For longer journeys, shorter times, and improved adrenalin response I
use a motorcycle. The main disadvantage of motor-assisted bicycles,
mopeds, and other two-wheeled compromises is that the frame and
whatever passes for suspension lack the proper engineering to give
you the stability and precision of steering and cornering that easily
reaching sustained speeds >20mph requires.

I don't have problem with my bikes at sustained speed of 20mph and the
racing boys sustain speeds of 30mph plus without apparent handling problems.

--
Tony

"I did make a mistake once - I thought I'd made a mistake but I hadn't"
Anon

Quoted message said:

I don't have problem with my bikes at sustained speed of 20mph and
the racing boys sustain speeds of 30mph plus without apparent
handling problems.

I think that's right: most of the handling and braking technology that
goes into a modern motorbike is there to deal with the weight of the
handling and braking technology (plus the engine + fuel). When the
rider *is* the engine and fuel, there's a lot less to worry about...

In article said:

Stuart Millington said:

Does anyone here actually use any form of motor assistance - Or should
I be asking in us.fat.people.cycling? ;-)

For longer journeys, shorter times, and improved adrenalin response I
use a motorcycle. The main disadvantage of motor-assisted bicycles,
mopeds, and other two-wheeled compromises is that the frame and
whatever passes for suspension lack the proper engineering to give
you the stability and precision of steering and cornering that easily
reaching sustained speeds >20mph requires.

Electrically Assisted Pedal Cycles (ones that legally still count
as bicycles) are limited to assisting below 15mph. Someone who can
sustain >20mph on the flat with the extra weight of an unused motor is
unlikely to use one.

That does still leave a potential problem downhill, but plenty of people
use bicycles with loads comparable with a motor and battery down hills
without problems. (The limited range of an electric assist bike means
it is unlikely to be used as a tourer with a big load itself. Using it
for a heavy load of shopping the load and motor weight together might
be too much.)

And people use bicycles down steep hills off-road, where the demands on
the suspension are probably rather more severe, though different, from
those on a bike with assist on the road.

If you actually added enough batteries to give the assisted bike a good
range compared to the currently marketed ones, then the weight would
be much higher, and the frame, suspension, wheels, and tyres would have
to be designed accordingly. And then it would be so heavy the range
would shrink again, at least uphill....

Simon Brooke said:

For very elderly people living in dead flat areas and never wanting to
cover more than five miles in a day it may make sense; for anyone else,
it's madness. The lazy man, as usual, does the most work. Be sensible.
Get something you can actually cycle.

I've got something (cheapo MTB'ish style), but I'm just too lazy to
get into shape for the hills on the way to work :-(

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Chris Malcolm said:

The same goes for small motorcycles, some of which are frighteningly
bendy and wobbly on bumpy roads.

Yep, my sister (who used to ride motorbikes) refuses to believe that
anything below 500cc - including bicycles - is safe.

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On 07 Oct 2005 16:21:51 +0100 (BST), [email hidden] (Alan

Braggins) said:

Electrically Assisted Pedal Cycles (ones that legally still count
as bicycles) are limited to assisting below 15mph. Someone who can
sustain >20mph on the flat with the extra weight of an unused motor is
unlikely to use one.

Then add the weight of a person (like me) who is likely to want to
use one and it's even heavier ;-)

Quoted message said:

If you actually added enough batteries to give the assisted bike a good
range compared to the currently marketed ones, then the weight would
be much higher, and the frame, suspension, wheels, and tyres would have
to be designed accordingly. And then it would be so heavy the range
would shrink again, at least uphill....

The thing is that you can't just add more batteries as [1] there is
a 200W (sustained) limit on the motor and a 40KG overall weight limit
- above that it's classed as a moped or motorcycle (depending on the
actual weight/power) with all the legalities and costs that involves.

It's a shame really as, for commuting purposes, the extra size and
lighting (including "standard indicators"😉 of some of the models out
now makes them far more visible to drivers.

Until there is a new generation of batteries with a vastly higher
power/weight ratio, I guess I'm stuck with getting fit :-( Although,
it may take a while ;-)

[1] The limits are higher for tricycles AIUI.

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Stuart Millington said:

It's a shame really as, for commuting purposes, the extra size and
lighting (including "standard indicators"😉 of some of the models out
now makes them far more visible to drivers.

SRAM make a replacement handlebar set styled like a moped. A little
searching reveals that the Smartbar is no longer made (Or promoted). It
might have suited you.

It is however fairly easy to make a set of indicators for a bike. But
waving your arm around will draw far more attention to you than a
blinking amber light.

Quoted message said:

Until there is a new generation of batteries with a vastly higher
power/weight ratio, I guess I'm stuck with getting fit :-( Although,
it may take a while ;-)

It wont take as long as you might imagine. You'll find that you get much
better at climbing the hills well before you adopt the whippet-like
appearance of the racing cyclist! ;-)

Jon

Stuart Millington said:

On 07 Oct 2005 16:21:51 +0100 (BST), [email hidden] (Alan

Braggins) said:

Electrically Assisted Pedal Cycles (ones that legally still count
as bicycles) are limited to assisting below 15mph. Someone who can
sustain >20mph on the flat with the extra weight of an unused motor is
unlikely to use one.

Then add the weight of a person (like me) who is likely to want to
use one and it's even heavier ;-)

But that's not _extra_ weight, in the sense that you have the same
weight on a not-assisted bike. (At least to start with.)

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

If you actually added enough batteries to give the assisted bike a good
range compared to the currently marketed ones, then the weight would
be much higher, and the frame, suspension, wheels, and tyres would have
to be designed accordingly. And then it would be so heavy the range
would shrink again, at least uphill....

The thing is that you can't just add more batteries as [1] there is
a 200W (sustained) limit on the motor and a 40KG overall weight limit
- above that it's classed as a moped or motorcycle (depending on the
actual weight/power) with all the legalities and costs that involves.

Yes, but even the ones that are legally mopeds have fairly limited range.

However, I fairly often see riders of electric bikes happily pottering
along at 10mph doing no work themselves, and haven't yet seen one
working hard because his battery is flat. If you have a regular journey
where they would help with hills or headwinds that does fit within the
range, they are potentially useful. You don't have to be ancient and
living on completely flat land (though it is flat near me).

The range will be shorter in hilly areas, but so will the range of an
unassisted rider who might benefit from assistance - the basic
consideration of "is the stored energy in the battery comparable to
the energy I need for this journey" is the same whatever the terrain.
Hills will make the penalty for getting it wrong worse, they don't make
it less useful while it works (assuming suitable gearing, of course).

Stuart Millington said:

Does anyone here actually use any form of motor assistance - Or should
I be asking in us.fat.people.cycling? ;-)

Yep, a CBR1100XX, specially designed with no pedals. Goes fast.

in message <[email hidden]>, Stuart

Millington (') said:

Simon Brooke said:

For very elderly people living in dead flat areas and never wanting to
cover more than five miles in a day it may make sense; for anyone else,
it's madness. The lazy man, as usual, does the most work. Be sensible.
Get something you can actually cycle.

I've got something (cheapo MTB'ish style), but I'm just too lazy to
get into shape for the hills on the way to work :-(

OK, scenario: you're on your way home from work, it's been a long day,
it's cold, it's dark, it's raining, and the battery's flat. What do you
do?

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; It appears that /dev/null is a conforming XSL processor.

in message <[email hidden]>, Stuart

Millington (') said:

Until there is a new generation of batteries with a vastly higher
power/weight ratio, I guess I'm stuck with getting fit :-( Although,
it may take a while ;-)

Getting fit will take far less long and far less effort than you think.
And you'll enjoy it. It's the thought of it that's stopping you, not
anything real. There are plenty of people on this group now who were
fatter and less fit than you are now just a few years ago. Get a proper
bike. You'll be happier, healthier, lighter, in better shape.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

((DoctorWho)ChristopherEccleston).act();
uk.co.bbc.TypecastException: actor does not want to be typecast.
[adapted from autofile on /., 31/03/05]

Stuart Millington said:

Until there is a new generation of batteries with a vastly higher
power/weight ratio, I guess I'm stuck with getting fit :-( Although,
it may take a while ;-)

Well there are lithium ion, lithium polymer and lithium disulphide
chemistries but I'm not sure anyone is offered motor-assisted bikes
with those and I doubt they'd be affordable even if they were,
especially LiS2.

Chris
--
Chris Eilbeck
MARS Flight Crew http://www.mars.org.uk/
UKRA #1108 Level 2 UYB
Tripoli UK Member #9527 LSMR

Simon Brooke said:

in message <[email hidden]>, Stuart

Millington (') said:

Simon Brooke said:

For very elderly people living in dead flat areas and never wanting
to cover more than five miles in a day it may make sense; for
anyone else, it's madness. The lazy man, as usual, does the most
work. Be sensible. Get something you can actually cycle.

I've got something (cheapo MTB'ish style), but I'm just too lazy to
get into shape for the hills on the way to work :-(

OK, scenario: you're on your way home from work, it's been a long
day, it's cold, it's dark, it's raining, and the battery's
flat. What do you do?

Take the battery off and leave it at work 😉

I can't really see me buying one of those things though I am rather
tempted by a Windcheetah with a couple of Jetcat P200 gas turbines on
the back. Might not be road legal though. Hell, I'd really like a
Windcheetah on its own!

Chris
--
Chris Eilbeck
MARS Flight Crew http://www.mars.org.uk/
UKRA #1108 Level 2 UYB
Tripoli UK Member #9527 LSMR

In article said:

Simon Brooke said:

OK, scenario: you're on your way home from work, it's been a long
day, it's cold, it's dark, it's raining, and the battery's
flat. What do you do?

Take the battery off and leave it at work 😉

Take a train/bus/taxi, same as if you had forgotten to recharge
your light batteries and not realized that until time to go home
and didn't want to cycle home in the dark and wet with no lights.

in message <[email hidden]>, Alan Braggins

(') said:

In article said:

Simon Brooke said:

OK, scenario: you're on your way home from work, it's been a long
day, it's cold, it's dark, it's raining, and the battery's
flat. What do you do?

Take the battery off and leave it at work 😉

Do you really think you could effectively pedal that thing any distance
at all?

Quoted message said:

Take a train/bus/taxi, same as if you had forgotten to recharge
your light batteries and not realized that until time to go home
and didn't want to cycle home in the dark and wet with no lights.

And if you're half way home (as, inevitably, you will be) when the
battery dies? Remember, this is a thing as big as a motor scooter. You
cannot get it into a taxi, and if you abandon it at the side of the road
in urban Britain, the chances are that it won't be there in the morning.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

Simon Brooke said:

in message <[email hidden]>, Alan Braggins

(') said:

Take a train/bus/taxi, same as if you had forgotten to recharge
your light batteries and not realized that until time to go home
and didn't want to cycle home in the dark and wet with no lights.

And if you're half way home (as, inevitably, you will be) when the
battery dies?

There's nothing inevitable about it at all. If you know how long the
battery lasts for, then you can plan journeys on that basis. It's no
different to making sure you have enough petrol to complete a journey.

--
Keith Willoughby http://flat222.org/keith/
"Once Allende comes to power we shall do all within our power
to condemn Chile and all Chileans to utmost deprivation and poverty."
-- Edward Korry

Simon Brooke said:

And if you're half way home (as, inevitably, you will be) when the
battery dies? Remember, this is a thing as big as a motor scooter.

Many electrically assisted bikes are not as big as a motor scooter.
If you look at Kinetics' web pages you can even see a selection of
folding bicycles that they have added motors to (among others).
On many conversion assists, the battery comes off (unlike a scooter
petrol tank), and the hub motor adds very little to the bulkiness
of the bike.
Something like a Giant Lafree is bulkier in the middle instead
(not having a hub motor), but still closer to a standard bike
than a motor scooter.

Anyway, what do you do if your motor scooter runs out of petrol half
way home on a route with no petrol stations (quite likely in a route
short enough for an electric bike to be plausible)?
Most users of motorised vehicles seem to remember to refuel them most
of the time.

Simon Brooke said:

in message <[email hidden]>, Stuart
Millington ([email hidden]'😉 wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Simon Brooke said:

For very elderly people living in dead flat areas and never wanting to
cover more than five miles in a day it may make sense; for anyone else,
it's madness. The lazy man, as usual, does the most work. Be sensible.
Get something you can actually cycle.

I've got something (cheapo MTB'ish style), but I'm just too lazy to
get into shape for the hills on the way to work :-(

Quoted message said:

OK, scenario: you're on your way home from work, it's been a long day,
it's cold, it's dark, it's raining, and the battery's flat. What do you
do?

That's the reason I never bought a car. What the hell do you do when
it's cold, dark, and raining, and you run out of petrol?

--
Chris Malcolm [email hidden] +44 (0)131 651 3445 DoD #205
IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK
[http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]

Chris Eilbeck said:

Simon Brooke <[email hidden]> writes:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

OK, scenario: you're on your way home from work, it's been a long
day, it's cold, it's dark, it's raining, and the battery's
flat. What do you do?

Push it to the nearest pub ;-)

Quoted message said:

Take the battery off and leave it at work 😉

Or a 2nd charger at work - use their leccy to get home on!

Quoted message said:

I can't really see me buying one of those things though I am rather
tempted by a Windcheetah with a couple of Jetcat P200 gas turbines on
the back. Might not be road legal though.

Probably not ;-)

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Chris Eilbeck said:

Well there are lithium ion, lithium polymer and lithium disulphide
chemistries but I'm not sure anyone is offered motor-assisted bikes
with those and I doubt they'd be affordable even if they were,
especially LiS2.

Looking at a car conversion supplier's list it seems not:

36V 100AH
Lead Acid: £315
Lithium: £1968

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