Modern Marvels



S

stratrider

Guest
I am sure many recognize the title of my post. I borrowed it from the
History Channel. It's a great show. I watch it regularly. Now if
only they would produce a show on the not so modern marvel, the
bicycle. Whether we are talking about a recumbent or upright, this
not so modern marvel of efficient transportation continues, in my
view, to be viewed largely as a kids toy in the US. I have made this
point before in recent years when gasoline was $1.50 per gallon. But
now it's $3.50 or more a gallon and at least in my area, the bike
continues to be overlooked as transportation! I cannot believe it!
People continue to be astonished when I tell them I commute to work (7
miles) on a bike. It takes 30-35 minutes depending on lights and
traffic. I tell them it takes me 10 to 15 mins to drive! Still, they
hold onto their car, truck, or suv, and ***** every day about the
price of gas! Go figure.

Jim Reilly
Reading, PA
 
stratrider aka Jim Reilly wrote:
> I am sure many recognize the title of my post. I borrowed it from the
> History Channel. It's a great show. I watch it regularly. Now if
> only they would produce a show on the not so modern marvel, the
> bicycle. Whether we are talking about a recumbent or upright, this
> not so modern marvel of efficient transportation continues, in my
> view, to be viewed largely as a kids toy in the US. I have made this
> point before in recent years when gasoline was $1.50 per gallon. But
> now it's $3.50 or more a gallon and at least in my area, the bike
> continues to be overlooked as transportation! I cannot believe it!
> People continue to be astonished when I tell them I commute to work (7
> miles) on a bike. It takes 30-35 minutes depending on lights and
> traffic. I tell them it takes me 10 to 15 mins to drive! Still, they
> hold onto their car, truck, or suv, and ***** every day about the
> price of gas! Go figure.
>
I am looking forward to a upcoming relocation so I can start riding a
bicycle to work.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful
 
Edward Dolan wrote:
> "Tom Sherman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> stratrider aka Jim Reilly wrote:
>>> I am sure many recognize the title of my post. I borrowed it from the
>>> History Channel. It's a great show. I watch it regularly. Now if
>>> only they would produce a show on the not so modern marvel, the
>>> bicycle. Whether we are talking about a recumbent or upright, this
>>> not so modern marvel of efficient transportation continues, in my
>>> view, to be viewed largely as a kids toy in the US. I have made this
>>> point before in recent years when gasoline was $1.50 per gallon. But
>>> now it's $3.50 or more a gallon and at least in my area, the bike
>>> continues to be overlooked as transportation! I cannot believe it!
>>> People continue to be astonished when I tell them I commute to work (7
>>> miles) on a bike. It takes 30-35 minutes depending on lights and
>>> traffic. I tell them it takes me 10 to 15 mins to drive! Still, they
>>> hold onto their car, truck, or suv, and ***** every day about the
>>> price of gas! Go figure.
>>>
>> I am looking forward to a upcoming relocation so I can start riding a
>> bicycle to work.
>
> Why can't you settle down in one spot? All this constant relocating is for
> gypsies. I suggest you get married and have about 10 kids. Then you will be
> permanently settled in one spot for the rest of your life.
>
Who said my abode was changing?

I would shoot myself before having children around - the only problem
with the "Modest Proposal" was it being satire and not a serious
proposition.

BTW, being married and having multiple children is no barrier to being
told to relocate.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful
 
Edward Dolan wrote:
> "Tom Sherman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> Edward Dolan wrote:
> [...]
>>>> I am looking forward to a upcoming relocation so I can start riding a
>>>> bicycle to work.
>>> Why can't you settle down in one spot? All this constant relocating is
>>> for gypsies. I suggest you get married and have about 10 kids. Then you
>>> will be permanently settled in one spot for the rest of your life.
>>>
>> Who said my abode was changing?
>>
>> I would shoot myself before having children around - the only problem with
>> the "Modest Proposal" was it being satire and not a serious proposition.
>>
>> BTW, being married and having multiple children is no barrier to being
>> told to relocate.
>
> Actually, being married with multiple children will anchor you. Your wife
> and kids will see to that.[...]
>
The choice is often move or be fired. Jobs are hard to find, not that
Mr. Ed the Slacker would know.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful
 
On Apr 17, 8:16 pm, Tom Sherman <[email protected]>
wrote:
> The starting wage for a civil engineer with a graduate degree is a
> larger US city is about $40/year, or less than a third of what a doctor
> or lawyer would make.

http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos027.htm

Kinda bizarre though--according to this page, Civil Engineers with a
Bachelors have a higher average starting salary than those with a
Masters degree. Wow, Petroleum engineers too!
 
"Victor Kan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Apr 17, 8:16 pm, Tom Sherman <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>> The starting wage for a civil engineer with a graduate degree is a
>> larger US city is about $40/year, or less than a third of what a doctor
>> or lawyer would make.
>
> http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos027.htm
>
> Kinda bizarre though--according to this page, Civil Engineers with a
> Bachelors have a higher average starting salary than those with a
> Masters degree. Wow, Petroleum engineers too!
>
>
>
I don't know, but if I had to venture a guess I'd say civil engineers who
have hung around in college to get masters degrees and other advanced
degrees probably don't have the reputation of being the "can do" types
entering in the field.
 
<snip occupational counseling>

"Tom Sherman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Since graduation, the only optional spending I have done is the adoption
> of three orphans: <http://www.flickr.com/photos/19704682@N08/>.

<snip personal finance and bible references>

In the photographs lowracer bike number 6 appears to be light lavender in
color. Here's what I'm wondering: What kind masculinity issues do face
when riding that bike?
 
Wilson wrote:
>
> <snip occupational counseling>
>
> "Tom Sherman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> Since graduation, the only optional spending I have done is the
>> adoption of three orphans: <http://www.flickr.com/photos/19704682@N08/>.
>
> <snip personal finance and bible references>
>
> In the photographs lowracer bike number 6 appears to be light lavender
> in color. Here's what I'm wondering: What kind masculinity issues do
> face when riding that bike?
>
I call it light purple and have no issues. :)

(Looks at picture on monitor, turns head slightly and looks at actual
bike) - the color is more towards purple than lavender in real life.

However, the common orange and less common red do seem to be more
appropriate colors for a Sunset than light purple, green, blue or silver.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful
 
Wilson wrote:
>
> "Victor Kan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> On Apr 17, 8:16 pm, Tom Sherman <[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>>> The starting wage for a civil engineer with a graduate degree is a
>>> larger US city is about $40/year, or less than a third of what a doctor
>>> or lawyer would make.
>>
>> http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos027.htm
>>
>> Kinda bizarre though--according to this page, Civil Engineers with a
>> Bachelors have a higher average starting salary than those with a
>> Masters degree. Wow, Petroleum engineers too!
>>
>>
>>
> I don't know, but if I had to venture a guess I'd say civil engineers
> who have hung around in college to get masters degrees and other
> advanced degrees probably don't have the reputation of being the "can
> do" types entering in the field.

Actually, there is a shortage of civil engineers with graduate degrees.
However, the shortage results in more work for the same pay, not higher
wages. The level playing field imagined by the libertarian free market
advocates only exists in theory; in the real world the system is always
gamed to someones advantage.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful
 
"Tom Sherman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Wilson wrote:
>>
>> "Victor Kan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>> On Apr 17, 8:16 pm, Tom Sherman <[email protected]>
>>> wrote:
>>>> The starting wage for a civil engineer with a graduate degree is a
>>>> larger US city is about $40/year, or less than a third of what a doctor
>>>> or lawyer would make.
>>>
>>> http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos027.htm
>>>
>>> Kinda bizarre though--according to this page, Civil Engineers with a
>>> Bachelors have a higher average starting salary than those with a
>>> Masters degree. Wow, Petroleum engineers too!
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> I don't know, but if I had to venture a guess I'd say civil engineers who
>> have hung around in college to get masters degrees and other advanced
>> degrees probably don't have the reputation of being the "can do" types
>> entering in the field.
>
> Actually, there is a shortage of civil engineers with graduate degrees.
> However, the shortage results in more work for the same pay, not higher
> wages. The level playing field imagined by the libertarian free market
> advocates only exists in theory; in the real world the system is always
> gamed to someones advantage.
>
>
--

I'm not getting it. If the shortage of civil engineers with graduate
degrees isn't driving up their wages, but only resulting in a greater work
load for them, then I have to wonder if their numerical shortage isn't
somewhat imagined in some quarters. It appears the present work load is
getting done with existing personnel. What am I missing?
 
Wilson wrote:
>
> "Tom Sherman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> Wilson wrote:
>>>
>>> "Victor Kan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>> On Apr 17, 8:16 pm, Tom Sherman <[email protected]>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> The starting wage for a civil engineer with a graduate degree is a
>>>>> larger US city is about $40/year, or less than a third of what a
>>>>> doctor
>>>>> or lawyer would make.
>>>>
>>>> http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos027.htm
>>>>
>>>> Kinda bizarre though--according to this page, Civil Engineers with a
>>>> Bachelors have a higher average starting salary than those with a
>>>> Masters degree. Wow, Petroleum engineers too!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> I don't know, but if I had to venture a guess I'd say civil engineers
>>> who have hung around in college to get masters degrees and other
>>> advanced degrees probably don't have the reputation of being the "can
>>> do" types entering in the field.
>>
>> Actually, there is a shortage of civil engineers with graduate
>> degrees. However, the shortage results in more work for the same pay,
>> not higher wages. The level playing field imagined by the libertarian
>> free market advocates only exists in theory; in the real world the
>> system is always gamed to someones advantage.
>>
>>
> I'm not getting it. If the shortage of civil engineers with graduate degrees isn't driving up their wages, but only resulting in a greater work load for them, then I have to wonder if their numerical shortage isn't somewhat imagined in some quarters. It appears the present work load is getting done with existing personnel. What am I missing?

Engineering is an exempt profession, so an engineer working 70 hours per
week can be paid the same as one working 40 hours per week. When the
cost of benefits are included, there is a great incentive to NOT hire
more engineers.

Non-exempt employees get paid "time and a half" [1] by the FLSA, so at
some point it becomes financially advantageous for the employer to hire
more workers.

[1] Unless covered by a collective bargaining agreement that has a
different provision.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful
 
Edward Dolan wrote:
> "Tom Sherman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> Wilson wrote:
>>> "Victor Kan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>> On Apr 17, 8:16 pm, Tom Sherman <[email protected]>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> The starting wage for a civil engineer with a graduate degree is a
>>>>> larger US city is about $40/year, or less than a third of what a doctor
>>>>> or lawyer would make.
>
> Jeez, only $40. a year? I will pay you more than that to clean up after my
> cats.
>
>>>> http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos027.htm
>>>>
>>>> Kinda bizarre though--according to this page, Civil Engineers with a
>>>> Bachelors have a higher average starting salary than those with a
>>>> Masters degree. Wow, Petroleum engineers too!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> I don't know, but if I had to venture a guess I'd say civil engineers who
>>> have hung around in college to get masters degrees and other advanced
>>> degrees probably don't have the reputation of being the "can do" types
>>> entering in the field.
>> Actually, there is a shortage of civil engineers with graduate degrees.
>> However, the shortage results in more work for the same pay, not higher
>> wages. The level playing field imagined by the libertarian free market
>> advocates only exists in theory; in the real world the system is always
>> gamed to someones [someone's] advantage.
>
> Mr. Sherman is well paid for what he does. Where did the idea ever come from
> that engineers need to make as much as businessmen. After all, they are just
> hired hands.
>
And how do the businesspersons contribute more to the overall benefit of
society?

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful
 
"Tom Sherman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Wilson wrote:
>>
>> "Tom Sherman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>> Wilson wrote:
>>>>
>>>> "Victor Kan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>>> On Apr 17, 8:16 pm, Tom Sherman <[email protected]>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> The starting wage for a civil engineer with a graduate degree is a
>>>>>> larger US city is about $40/year, or less than a third of what a
>>>>>> doctor
>>>>>> or lawyer would make.
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos027.htm
>>>>>
>>>>> Kinda bizarre though--according to this page, Civil Engineers with a
>>>>> Bachelors have a higher average starting salary than those with a
>>>>> Masters degree. Wow, Petroleum engineers too!
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> I don't know, but if I had to venture a guess I'd say civil engineers
>>>> who have hung around in college to get masters degrees and other
>>>> advanced degrees probably don't have the reputation of being the "can
>>>> do" types entering in the field.
>>>
>>> Actually, there is a shortage of civil engineers with graduate degrees.
>>> However, the shortage results in more work for the same pay, not higher
>>> wages. The level playing field imagined by the libertarian free market
>>> advocates only exists in theory; in the real world the system is always
>>> gamed to someones advantage.
>>>
>>>
>> I'm not getting it. If the shortage of civil engineers with graduate
>> degrees isn't driving up their wages, but only resulting in a greater
>> work load for them, then I have to wonder if their numerical shortage
>> isn't somewhat imagined in some quarters. It appears the present work
>> load is getting done with existing personnel. What am I missing?
>
> Engineering is an exempt profession, so an engineer working 70 hours per
> week can be paid the same as one working 40 hours per week. When the cost
> of benefits are included, there is a great incentive to NOT hire more
> engineers.
>
> Non-exempt employees get paid "time and a half" [1] by the FLSA, so at
> some point it becomes financially advantageous for the employer to hire
> more workers.
>
> [1] Unless covered by a collective bargaining agreement that has a
> different provision.
>
> --

I take your words to mean that you believe there is a shortage of engineers
in your firm, but your employer doesn't necessarily buy into your
hypothesis.
 
Wilson wrote:
>
> "Tom Sherman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> Wilson wrote:
>>>
>>> "Tom Sherman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>> Wilson wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> "Victor Kan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Apr 17, 8:16 pm, Tom Sherman <[email protected]>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>> The starting wage for a civil engineer with a graduate degree is a
>>>>>>> larger US city is about $40/year, or less than a third of what a
>>>>>>> doctor
>>>>>>> or lawyer would make.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos027.htm
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Kinda bizarre though--according to this page, Civil Engineers with a
>>>>>> Bachelors have a higher average starting salary than those with a
>>>>>> Masters degree. Wow, Petroleum engineers too!
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> I don't know, but if I had to venture a guess I'd say civil
>>>>> engineers who have hung around in college to get masters degrees
>>>>> and other advanced degrees probably don't have the reputation of
>>>>> being the "can do" types entering in the field.
>>>>
>>>> Actually, there is a shortage of civil engineers with graduate
>>>> degrees. However, the shortage results in more work for the same
>>>> pay, not higher wages. The level playing field imagined by the
>>>> libertarian free market advocates only exists in theory; in the real
>>>> world the system is always gamed to someones advantage.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> I'm not getting it. If the shortage of civil engineers with graduate
>>> degrees isn't driving up their wages, but only resulting in a greater
>>> work load for them, then I have to wonder if their numerical shortage
>>> isn't somewhat imagined in some quarters. It appears the present
>>> work load is getting done with existing personnel. What am I missing?
>>
>> Engineering is an exempt profession, so an engineer working 70 hours
>> per week can be paid the same as one working 40 hours per week. When
>> the cost of benefits are included, there is a great incentive to NOT
>> hire more engineers.
>>
>> Non-exempt employees get paid "time and a half" [1] by the FLSA, so at
>> some point it becomes financially advantageous for the employer to
>> hire more workers.
>>
>> [1] Unless covered by a collective bargaining agreement that has a
>> different provision.
>>
>> --
>
> I take your words to mean that you believe there is a shortage of
> engineers in your firm, but your employer doesn't necessarily buy into
> your hypothesis.

No, the shortage is constantly being commented on by personnel
departments of larger firms and by trade organizations. People leave the
profession or decide not to go into it in the first place due to lower
compensation and/or work expectations.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful
 
"Tom Sherman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Wilson wrote:
>>
>> "Tom Sherman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>> Wilson wrote:
>>>>
>>>> "Tom Sherman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>>> Wilson wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Victor Kan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>>>>> On Apr 17, 8:16 pm, Tom Sherman <[email protected]>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> The starting wage for a civil engineer with a graduate degree is a
>>>>>>>> larger US city is about $40/year, or less than a third of what a
>>>>>>>> doctor
>>>>>>>> or lawyer would make.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos027.htm
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Kinda bizarre though--according to this page, Civil Engineers with a
>>>>>>> Bachelors have a higher average starting salary than those with a
>>>>>>> Masters degree. Wow, Petroleum engineers too!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't know, but if I had to venture a guess I'd say civil engineers
>>>>>> who have hung around in college to get masters degrees and other
>>>>>> advanced degrees probably don't have the reputation of being the "can
>>>>>> do" types entering in the field.
>>>>>
>>>>> Actually, there is a shortage of civil engineers with graduate
>>>>> degrees. However, the shortage results in more work for the same pay,
>>>>> not higher wages. The level playing field imagined by the libertarian
>>>>> free market advocates only exists in theory; in the real world the
>>>>> system is always gamed to someones advantage.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> I'm not getting it. If the shortage of civil engineers with graduate
>>>> degrees isn't driving up their wages, but only resulting in a greater
>>>> work load for them, then I have to wonder if their numerical shortage
>>>> isn't somewhat imagined in some quarters. It appears the present work
>>>> load is getting done with existing personnel. What am I missing?
>>>
>>> Engineering is an exempt profession, so an engineer working 70 hours per
>>> week can be paid the same as one working 40 hours per week. When the
>>> cost of benefits are included, there is a great incentive to NOT hire
>>> more engineers.
>>>
>>> Non-exempt employees get paid "time and a half" [1] by the FLSA, so at
>>> some point it becomes financially advantageous for the employer to hire
>>> more workers.
>>>
>>> [1] Unless covered by a collective bargaining agreement that has a
>>> different provision.
>>>
>>> --
>>
>> I take your words to mean that you believe there is a shortage of
>> engineers in your firm, but your employer doesn't necessarily buy into
>> your hypothesis.
>
> No, the shortage is constantly being commented on by personnel departments
> of larger firms and by trade organizations. People leave the profession or
> decide not to go into it in the first place due to lower compensation
> and/or work expectations.
>
> --

It always seems I'm missing something here. If there is a truly a shortage
and employers who need to hire additional engineers have to compete for them
from a smaller pool of those available, then how come that doesn't tend to
drive wages up? Claiming existing engineers have to work harder and
longer won't answer this question because it only tends to increase the
shortage as you point out above.
 
"Tom Sherman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Wilson wrote:
>>
>> <snip occupational counseling>
>>
>> "Tom Sherman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>> Since graduation, the only optional spending I have done is the adoption
>>> of three orphans: <http://www.flickr.com/photos/19704682@N08/>.
>>
>> <snip personal finance and bible references>
>>
>> In the photographs lowracer bike number 6 appears to be light lavender in
>> color. Here's what I'm wondering: What kind masculinity issues do you
>> face when riding that bike?
>>
> I call it light purple and have no issues. :)
>
> (Looks at picture on monitor, turns head slightly and looks at actual
> bike) - the color is more towards purple than lavender in real life.
>
> However, the common orange and less common red do seem to be more
> appropriate colors for a Sunset than light purple, green, blue or silver.
>
> --

I completely agree with your last sentence. I wouldn't want you to see you
doing group rides with roadies on that bike. Recumbents are still weird
enough as it is. You just had to have bought that bike from a woman. It's
the only plausible explanation. If you won't paint it then you ought to
sell it to someone who will.

By the way, how much would you take for it?
 
Wilson wrote:
>
> "Tom Sherman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> Wilson wrote:
>>>
>>> "Tom Sherman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>> Wilson wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> "Tom Sherman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>>>> Wilson wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Victor Kan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>>>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Apr 17, 8:16 pm, Tom Sherman <[email protected]>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> The starting wage for a civil engineer with a graduate degree is a
>>>>>>>>> larger US city is about $40/year, or less than a third of what
>>>>>>>>> a doctor
>>>>>>>>> or lawyer would make.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos027.htm
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Kinda bizarre though--according to this page, Civil Engineers
>>>>>>>> with a
>>>>>>>> Bachelors have a higher average starting salary than those with a
>>>>>>>> Masters degree. Wow, Petroleum engineers too!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I don't know, but if I had to venture a guess I'd say civil
>>>>>>> engineers who have hung around in college to get masters degrees
>>>>>>> and other advanced degrees probably don't have the reputation of
>>>>>>> being the "can do" types entering in the field.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Actually, there is a shortage of civil engineers with graduate
>>>>>> degrees. However, the shortage results in more work for the same
>>>>>> pay, not higher wages. The level playing field imagined by the
>>>>>> libertarian free market advocates only exists in theory; in the
>>>>>> real world the system is always gamed to someones advantage.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> I'm not getting it. If the shortage of civil engineers with
>>>>> graduate degrees isn't driving up their wages, but only resulting
>>>>> in a greater work load for them, then I have to wonder if their
>>>>> numerical shortage isn't somewhat imagined in some quarters. It
>>>>> appears the present work load is getting done with existing
>>>>> personnel. What am I missing?
>>>>
>>>> Engineering is an exempt profession, so an engineer working 70 hours
>>>> per week can be paid the same as one working 40 hours per week. When
>>>> the cost of benefits are included, there is a great incentive to NOT
>>>> hire more engineers.
>>>>
>>>> Non-exempt employees get paid "time and a half" [1] by the FLSA, so
>>>> at some point it becomes financially advantageous for the employer
>>>> to hire more workers.
>>>>
>>>> [1] Unless covered by a collective bargaining agreement that has a
>>>> different provision.
>>>
>>> I take your words to mean that you believe there is a shortage of
>>> engineers in your firm, but your employer doesn't necessarily buy
>>> into your hypothesis.
>>
>> No, the shortage is constantly being commented on by personnel
>> departments of larger firms and by trade organizations. People leave
>> the profession or decide not to go into it in the first place due to
>> lower compensation and/or work expectations.
>>
>
> It always seems I'm missing something here. If there is a truly a
> shortage and employers who need to hire additional engineers have to
> compete for them from a smaller pool of those available, then how come
> that doesn't tend to drive wages up? Claiming existing engineers have
> to work harder and longer won't answer this question because it only
> tends to increase the shortage as you point out above.

What you are missing is that the economic theory of supply and demand
does not apply because of external factors "gaming" the system.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful
 
Wilson wrote:
>
> "Tom Sherman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> Wilson wrote:
>>>
>>> <snip occupational counseling>
>>>
>>> "Tom Sherman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>> Since graduation, the only optional spending I have done is the
>>>> adoption of three orphans:
>>>> <http://www.flickr.com/photos/19704682@N08/>.
>>>
>>> <snip personal finance and bible references>
>>>
>>> In the photographs lowracer bike number 6 appears to be light
>>> lavender in color. Here's what I'm wondering: What kind masculinity
>>> issues do you
>>> face when riding that bike?
>>>
>> I call it light purple and have no issues. :)
>>
>> (Looks at picture on monitor, turns head slightly and looks at actual
>> bike) - the color is more towards purple than lavender in real life.
>>
>> However, the common orange and less common red do seem to be more
>> appropriate colors for a Sunset than light purple, green, blue or silver.
>
> I completely agree with your last sentence. I wouldn't want you to see
> you doing group rides with roadies on that bike. Recumbents are still
> weird enough as it is. You just had to have bought that bike from a
> woman. It's the only plausible explanation. If you won't paint it then
> you ought to sell it to someone who will.
>
Actually, both former owners were male, while one of the former owners
of the red Sunset was female.

> By the way, how much would you take for it?

Not for sale, but about $2K if it was.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful
 
"Tom Sherman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Wilson wrote:
>>
>> "Tom Sherman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>> Wilson wrote:
>>>>
>>>> "Tom Sherman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>>> Wilson wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Tom Sherman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>>>>> Wilson wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "Victor Kan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>>>>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>>>>>>> On Apr 17, 8:16 pm, Tom Sherman <[email protected]>
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> The starting wage for a civil engineer with a graduate degree is
>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>> larger US city is about $40/year, or less than a third of what a
>>>>>>>>>> doctor
>>>>>>>>>> or lawyer would make.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos027.htm
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Kinda bizarre though--according to this page, Civil Engineers with
>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>> Bachelors have a higher average starting salary than those with a
>>>>>>>>> Masters degree. Wow, Petroleum engineers too!
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I don't know, but if I had to venture a guess I'd say civil
>>>>>>>> engineers who have hung around in college to get masters degrees
>>>>>>>> and other advanced degrees probably don't have the reputation of
>>>>>>>> being the "can do" types entering in the field.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Actually, there is a shortage of civil engineers with graduate
>>>>>>> degrees. However, the shortage results in more work for the same
>>>>>>> pay, not higher wages. The level playing field imagined by the
>>>>>>> libertarian free market advocates only exists in theory; in the real
>>>>>>> world the system is always gamed to someones advantage.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm not getting it. If the shortage of civil engineers with graduate
>>>>>> degrees isn't driving up their wages, but only resulting in a greater
>>>>>> work load for them, then I have to wonder if their numerical shortage
>>>>>> isn't somewhat imagined in some quarters. It appears the present
>>>>>> work load is getting done with existing personnel. What am I missing?
>>>>>
>>>>> Engineering is an exempt profession, so an engineer working 70 hours
>>>>> per week can be paid the same as one working 40 hours per week. When
>>>>> the cost of benefits are included, there is a great incentive to NOT
>>>>> hire more engineers.
>>>>>
>>>>> Non-exempt employees get paid "time and a half" [1] by the FLSA, so at
>>>>> some point it becomes financially advantageous for the employer to
>>>>> hire more workers.
>>>>>
>>>>> [1] Unless covered by a collective bargaining agreement that has a
>>>>> different provision.
>>>>
>>>> I take your words to mean that you believe there is a shortage of
>>>> engineers in your firm, but your employer doesn't necessarily buy into
>>>> your hypothesis.
>>>
>>> No, the shortage is constantly being commented on by personnel
>>> departments of larger firms and by trade organizations. People leave the
>>> profession or decide not to go into it in the first place due to lower
>>> compensation and/or work expectations.
>>>
>>
>> It always seems I'm missing something here. If there is a truly a
>> shortage and employers who need to hire additional engineers have to
>> compete for them from a smaller pool of those available, then how come
>> that doesn't tend to drive wages up? Claiming existing engineers have
>> to work harder and longer won't answer this question because it only
>> tends to increase the shortage as you point out above.
>
> What you are missing is that the economic theory of supply and demand does
> not apply because of external factors "gaming" the system.
>
> --

Sorry, but external factors "gaming" the system (what system?) and
overriding the economic law of supply and demand is not understood.
 
Wilson wrote:
>
> "Tom Sherman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> Wilson wrote:
>>>
>>> "Tom Sherman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>> Wilson wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> "Tom Sherman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>>>> Wilson wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Tom Sherman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>>>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>>>>>> Wilson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> "Victor Kan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>>>>>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 17, 8:16 pm, Tom Sherman
>>>>>>>>>> <[email protected]>
>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> The starting wage for a civil engineer with a graduate degree
>>>>>>>>>>> is a
>>>>>>>>>>> larger US city is about $40/year, or less than a third of
>>>>>>>>>>> what a doctor
>>>>>>>>>>> or lawyer would make.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos027.htm
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Kinda bizarre though--according to this page, Civil Engineers
>>>>>>>>>> with a
>>>>>>>>>> Bachelors have a higher average starting salary than those with a
>>>>>>>>>> Masters degree. Wow, Petroleum engineers too!
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I don't know, but if I had to venture a guess I'd say civil
>>>>>>>>> engineers who have hung around in college to get masters
>>>>>>>>> degrees and other advanced degrees probably don't have the
>>>>>>>>> reputation of being the "can do" types entering in the field.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Actually, there is a shortage of civil engineers with graduate
>>>>>>>> degrees. However, the shortage results in more work for the same
>>>>>>>> pay, not higher wages. The level playing field imagined by the
>>>>>>>> libertarian free market advocates only exists in theory; in the
>>>>>>>> real world the system is always gamed to someones advantage.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'm not getting it. If the shortage of civil engineers with
>>>>>>> graduate degrees isn't driving up their wages, but only resulting
>>>>>>> in a greater work load for them, then I have to wonder if their
>>>>>>> numerical shortage isn't somewhat imagined in some quarters. It
>>>>>>> appears the present work load is getting done with existing
>>>>>>> personnel. What am I missing?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Engineering is an exempt profession, so an engineer working 70
>>>>>> hours per week can be paid the same as one working 40 hours per
>>>>>> week. When the cost of benefits are included, there is a great
>>>>>> incentive to NOT hire more engineers.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Non-exempt employees get paid "time and a half" [1] by the FLSA,
>>>>>> so at some point it becomes financially advantageous for the
>>>>>> employer to hire more workers.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> [1] Unless covered by a collective bargaining agreement that has a
>>>>>> different provision.
>>>>>
>>>>> I take your words to mean that you believe there is a shortage of
>>>>> engineers in your firm, but your employer doesn't necessarily buy
>>>>> into your hypothesis.
>>>>
>>>> No, the shortage is constantly being commented on by personnel
>>>> departments of larger firms and by trade organizations. People leave
>>>> the profession or decide not to go into it in the first place due to
>>>> lower compensation and/or work expectations.
>>>>
>>>
>>> It always seems I'm missing something here. If there is a truly a
>>> shortage and employers who need to hire additional engineers have to
>>> compete for them from a smaller pool of those available, then how
>>> come that doesn't tend to drive wages up? Claiming existing
>>> engineers have to work harder and longer won't answer this question
>>> because it only tends to increase the shortage as you point out above.
>>
>> What you are missing is that the economic theory of supply and demand
>> does not apply because of external factors "gaming" the system.
>>
>> --
>
> Sorry, but external factors "gaming" the system (what system?) and
> overriding the economic law of supply and demand is not understood.

When real life disagrees with theory, do you change theory or believe
real life observations?

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful
 
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