Maximum cornering speed

Hi Travis!!

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Most importantly, if I am near the limits, will I feel any kind of
warning?

Yes, you will. About a millisecond before you lose it, a little voice
inside your head says, "Oh oh...". Usually too late to help, though...
*grins*

Cheers,
Abby

"Peter Signorini" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Aeek said:

flyingdutch said:

Inside shoulder FORWARD, outside foot forcing down, lean the bike BUT
NOT you! (ie you go the other/outer side...)

DO NOT try to 'point' the wheel into/around the corner on fast corners.
great way to end up in the shrubbery/kitty-litter...

Lean the bike to turn and let the front do what it wants! My arms are
passive shock absorbers. Maybe I countersteer? Don't really know, I am
looking ahead, not at my bike.

This is the big difference between bicycles and motorbikes in the whole
countersteer thing. A bicycle can be leaned easily by a small body move by
the rider as the riders weight is such a great proportion of the total
mass. It's a lot harder for a motorbiker to shift a 300kg motorbike.

Once you look into the corner, lean the bike, then the wheel drops with
the castor effect, and you're turning. Countersteering is another way to
do it, I've tried it, it works quite quick, but it's not what I do in a
typical smooth turn. Maybe a strategy for some sort of emergency turn.

Now I'll put on my flame-proof suit :-)

No need - yet!

Yes, you need more effort to tip into a corner on a moto, but you still
countersteer on a treadly. Most people just don't realise, because the
actions are slight, and were part of the original learning/balance process.

Tony F

Bleve said:

That would only happen if you were braking through the corner, or doing
something quite odd with body english.

Like I said, position of rider. There's a photo of me somewhere on
pixelpics.com coming through a corner (on dirt) with obvious slide of the
rear wheel, and you can see my braking finger is not pulling the lever. It
was the Penrose 8Hr last year if you want to go looking. That's MTB on
dirt, but similar tricks are possible on tar.

I'm mainly coming from an MTB background, but I've got a lot of road ks on
converted MTBs. The position there is probably putting more weight on the
rear wheel than a roadie, and I've had my (slick) tyres walking around
corners. I'd imagine that reasonable tyres on a roadie should do much the
same, though the margin for error will be smaller since they're so narrow.

Quoted message said:

He's on a roadbike, riding on bitumen. If it was an MTB on dirt, I'd
agree with you.

No, I've done most of this stuff on tar as well, and a couple of times
on my dinosaur station bike roadie (not the front brake thing, the brakes
aren't good enough in the wet to lock the steel wheel - I did say station
bike).

I stand by the comment that oversteer is easier to correct on a bike than
understeer, simply because it means the rear wheel is going first, and
your front wheel is the primary control.

--
Dave Hughes | [email hidden]
Mr Tulip's vices were also limitless, but he owned up to cheap
aftershave because a man has to drink *something* -- Terry Pratchett

On 2006-05-24, Random Data (aka Bruce)
was almost, but not quite, entirely unlike tea:

Quoted message said:

I stand by the comment that oversteer is easier to correct on a bike than
understeer, simply because it means the rear wheel is going first, and
your front wheel is the primary control.

I think all of my rear wheel slides on the roady ended up being saved,
and all my front wheel slides ended up with me being on the deck.

I love that feeling you get when you realise that your rear wheel
skipped five inchs, and you are still on the bike and getting out of
the corner just *fine*, thank you very much.

--
TimC
Brown's Theorem (Physics III student, Usyd):
"The only thing that behaves like a billiard
ball, is a billiard ball"

TimC said:

I think all of my rear wheel slides on the roady ended up being saved,
and all my front wheel slides ended up with me being on the deck.

In the context of bike control, I'm not sure having you weigh in is
helping or hindering my argument ;-)

--
Dave Hughes | [email hidden]
"I've found that nurturing one's Zen nature is vital to dealing with
technology. Violence is pretty damn useful too" - Lionel Lauer

Random Data said:

Bleve said:

That would only happen if you were braking through the corner, or doing
something quite odd with body english.

Like I said, position of rider. There's a photo of me somewhere on
pixelpics.com coming through a corner (on dirt) with obvious slide of the
rear wheel, and you can see my braking finger is not pulling the lever. It
was the Penrose 8Hr last year if you want to go looking. That's MTB on
dirt, but similar tricks are possible on tar.

Yes, but the margins are a lot tighter. I slid cars aruond all oevr
the shop on dirt and it's quite controllable, same with the MTB, but a
road bike, once it starts to slide,. you don't have a lot to play with,
and you need to be pretty sure the surface is consistant.

Quoted message said:

I'm mainly coming from an MTB background, but I've got a lot of road ks on
converted MTBs. The position there is probably putting more weight on the
rear wheel than a roadie, and I've had my (slick) tyres walking around
corners. I'd imagine that reasonable tyres on a roadie should do much the
same, though the margin for error will be smaller since they're so narrow.

Quoted message said:

He's on a roadbike, riding on bitumen. If it was an MTB on dirt, I'd
agree with you.

No, I've done most of this stuff on tar as well, and a couple of times
on my dinosaur station bike roadie (not the front brake thing, the brakes
aren't good enough in the wet to lock the steel wheel - I did say station
bike).

I stand by the comment that oversteer is easier to correct on a bike than
understeer, simply because it means the rear wheel is going first, and
your front wheel is the primary control.

Agreed, if you lose a front wheel, it's usually* hit the deck-o-clock.
I've slid (both wheels) around at Glenvale on an occasion or two, and
*just* kept it upright, but that was more luck than anything, the
margin for error is very tight on a roady. Best not to slide at all,
IMO, you don't tend to win races by cornering stupid-fast, but you sure
can lose them.

* - here's one of my lads, just after losing the front wheel at Sandown
at a crit this last summer, and managing to stay upright - it had just
started to drizzle and a normally very grippy corner, suddenly wasn't :

http://www.aboc.com.au/images/galleries/20051206-sandown/DSCF5949.html
http://www.aboc.com.au/images/galleries/20051206-sandown/DSCF5950.html

Bleve said:

* - here's one of my lads, just after losing the front wheel at Sandown
at a crit this last summer, and managing to stay upright - it had just
started to drizzle and a normally very grippy corner, suddenly wasn't :

Actually to go back a bit, this is the situation where leaning the bike
more than you is a reasonable thing - if the front goes you've got a
fraction of a second to let the bike straighten up under you, so that you
stay upright. If you're really leaning over then you've got to pull
yourself back up, and riding bikes on an angle is quite tricky.

--
Dave Hughes | [email hidden]
"SCSI is *not* magic. There are fundamental technical reasons why it is
necessary to sacrifice a young goat to your SCSI chain now and then."
- Daniel M. Drucker

tony f said:

Yes, you need more effort to tip into a corner on a moto, but you still
countersteer on a treadly. Most people just don't realise, because the
actions are slight, and were part of the original learning/balance process.

Tony F

That's 100% correct.
If you're going more than around 10km/h, there is no way you can turn a
bike without countersteering.
As far as cornering techniques, there are very few similarities between
motorcycle and bicycle.
I've only started bicycle road racing this year but I have 4 years of
SuperSport racing experience so I think I might have something useful
to add to the discussion.
The one thing m/c racers spend their time chasing is traction. No
traction = no corner speed and no acceleration or braking. There are
only two things you can do on a bike - change speed and change
direction, neither of which can be done competitively with poor grip.

I'll give you an idea of what happens in a simple corner on a race bike:
Approaching corner at speed, find 'braking marker' and 'end of braking
marker' sit up and start to brake hard, the rear wheel is usually just
skimming the surface or lifting.
Shift down while braking, move body weight off to the inside and push
hard on inside bar while releasing brake to unload the front suspension
so it can handle the turn.
Front tyre starts to slide (understeer) at this point so as you're
coming off the brake, you have to roll on the throttle to transfer
weight off the overloaded front and onto the rear as your knee touches
the ground.
(knee on the ground is used as a lean guage more than anything else -
unless of course you overcook it and it's actually holding you up) Keep
rolling the throttle on through the corner - usually roll it on a bit
slower at the apex/full lean as there's less grip. (a lot of accidents
happen here when paople for one reason or another roll off the throttle
- the front tyre just cannot handle that sort of load)
Pass the apex, start to roll on harder and push the bike upright onto a
larger contact patch whilst staying off the side to keep the CG down low.
There are a couple of things you can do here depending on the situation
- generally you put your weight on the outside peg for grip and
stability but if you're running wide, you can put it on the inside peg
to break traction for a second or so to induce oversteer - pointing the
bike closer to the inside of the track. The straight bits are easy.

The only thing that I've been able to bring from m/c racing to bicycles
is corner speed - I seem to be more comfortable than others I race
against at higher corner speeds - trouble is that they're more
comfortable at accelerating 😉

Tip #1 Always look well around the corner ie. where you want to go, not in the gutter were you will crash.

phleep said:

tony f said:

Yes, you need more effort to tip into a corner on a moto, but you still
countersteer on a treadly. Most people just don't realise, because the
actions are slight, and were part of the original learning/balance
process.

Tony F

That's 100% correct.
If you're going more than around 10km/h, there is no way you can turn a
bike without countersteering.
As far as cornering techniques, there are very few similarities between
motorcycle and bicycle.
I've only started bicycle road racing this year but I have 4 years of
SuperSport racing experience so I think I might have something useful
to add to the discussion.
The one thing m/c racers spend their time chasing is traction. No
traction = no corner speed and no acceleration or braking. There are
only two things you can do on a bike - change speed and change
direction, neither of which can be done competitively with poor grip.

I'll give you an idea of what happens in a simple corner on a race bike:
Approaching corner at speed, find 'braking marker' and 'end of braking
marker' sit up and start to brake hard, the rear wheel is usually just
skimming the surface or lifting.
Shift down while braking, move body weight off to the inside and push
hard on inside bar while releasing brake to unload the front suspension
so it can handle the turn.
Front tyre starts to slide (understeer) at this point so as you're
coming off the brake, you have to roll on the throttle to transfer
weight off the overloaded front and onto the rear as your knee touches
the ground.
(knee on the ground is used as a lean guage more than anything else -
unless of course you overcook it and it's actually holding you up) Keep
rolling the throttle on through the corner - usually roll it on a bit
slower at the apex/full lean as there's less grip. (a lot of accidents
happen here when paople for one reason or another roll off the throttle
- the front tyre just cannot handle that sort of load)
Pass the apex, start to roll on harder and push the bike upright onto a
larger contact patch whilst staying off the side to keep the CG down low.
There are a couple of things you can do here depending on the situation
- generally you put your weight on the outside peg for grip and
stability but if you're running wide, you can put it on the inside peg
to break traction for a second or so to induce oversteer - pointing the
bike closer to the inside of the track. The straight bits are easy.

The only thing that I've been able to bring from m/c racing to bicycles
is corner speed - I seem to be more comfortable than others I race
against at higher corner speeds - trouble is that they're more
comfortable at accelerating 😉

Thanks for your contribution and very interesting description. When
cornering fast on a bicycle, do you prefer to keep your body at the same
angle as the bicycle, or lean more/less than the bicycle?

Cheers,

Vince

Jono L said:

Tip #1 Always look well around the corner ie. where you want to go, not in the gutter were you will crash.

...and why? It aint cos you see where you are going (altho it does tend to come in handy😄)
It's cos it shifts you weight, turns your torso/shoulders

best way to do emergency avoidance of bolllard/cardoor/collingwood-supporter is by doing thus...

quote='phleep'tony f said:

Yes, you need more effort to tip into a corner on a moto, but you still
countersteer on a treadly. Most people just don't realise, because the
actions are slight, and were part of the original learning/balance process.

Tony F

That's 100% correct.
If you're going more than around 10km/h, there is no way you can turn a
bike without countersteering.
As far as cornering techniques, there are very few similarities between
motorcycle and bicycle.
I've only started bicycle road racing this year but I have 4 years of
SuperSport racing experience so I think I might have something useful
to add to the discussion.
The one thing m/c racers spend their time chasing is traction. No
traction = no corner speed and no acceleration or braking. There are
only two things you can do on a bike - change speed and change
direction, neither of which can be done competitively with poor grip.

I'll give you an idea of what happens in a simple corner on a race bike:
Approaching corner at speed, find 'braking marker' and 'end of braking
marker' sit up and start to brake hard, the rear wheel is usually just
skimming the surface or lifting.
Shift down while braking, move body weight off to the inside and push
hard on inside bar while releasing brake to unload the front suspension
so it can handle the turn.
Front tyre starts to slide (understeer) at this point so as you're
coming off the brake, you have to roll on the throttle to transfer
weight off the overloaded front and onto the rear as your knee touches
the ground.
(knee on the ground is used as a lean guage more than anything else -
unless of course you overcook it and it's actually holding you up) Keep
rolling the throttle on through the corner - usually roll it on a bit
slower at the apex/full lean as there's less grip. (a lot of accidents
happen here when paople for one reason or another roll off the throttle
- the front tyre just cannot handle that sort of load)
Pass the apex, start to roll on harder and push the bike upright onto a
larger contact patch whilst staying off the side to keep the CG down low.
There are a couple of things you can do here depending on the situation
- generally you put your weight on the outside peg for grip and
stability but if you're running wide, you can put it on the inside peg
to break traction for a second or so to induce oversteer - pointing the
bike closer to the inside of the track. The straight bits are easy.

The only thing that I've been able to bring from m/c racing to bicycles
is corner speed - I seem to be more comfortable than others I race
against at higher corner speeds - trouble is that they're more
comfortable at accelerating 😉[/QUOTE]

There's a few motorcyle racers or ex-motorcycle racers around here! Here's the supermoto version:

On the bitumen, wait till your mate brakes, count to 2, then brake as hard as you can, slam it down two gears and let the clutch out while jamming on the rear brake and flicking it sideways. See how long and how far out you can slide the back wheel sideways into the corner with the rubber howling, laughing and yelling in yer helmet 'outta the ferkin way ya cahn' at your mate as you nearly take him out. Half way through the corner it turns to rutted dirt, lose the front, bang a foot down to stop falling over, fishtail the rear, get overtaken by your mate up the inside popping a wheelie, and try to get enough traction to accelerate over the table top jump. Barely make the down ramp coz you can't jump for [censored], as some ex-motocross pro just about jumps over the top of you. Round the bermed corner, over another jump, then back onto the bitumen, with the rear tyre scrabbling for grip with all the gravel strewn over the blacktop. Through a few more hairpin corners on the bitumen, preferably backing it in again, compulsory wheelie down the main straight [repeat] 🙂)))

Motorcycle riders seem to corner faster on bicycles (and go-karts). I reckon there are quite a few similarities - going where you look, dropping the inside shoulder, weighting the outside leg, use the same 'racing' line, keeping relaxed so the bike can move around under you over bumps... The contact patch is much smaller and their is no suspension so the tyres can be levered off the deck by bumps & debris if you are not careful.

All good fun, but it something you have to practice. Try and find a corner where you can try holding a tight line, but it doesn't matter if you overcook it a bit.

Adam

"Random Data" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

TimC said:

I think all of my rear wheel slides on the roady ended up being saved,
and all my front wheel slides ended up with me being on the deck.

In the context of bike control, I'm not sure having you weigh in is
helping or hindering my argument ;-)

I have found exactly the same thing. Front wheel going out from under you
is very hard to save on the road.
One the track, it's OK provided you can get the nose of the bike pointed
downwill.
Never saved a front wheel slide on the road! Saved quite a few back ones.

Vincent Patrick said:

phleep said:

tony f said:

Yes, you need more effort to tip into a corner on a moto, but you still
countersteer on a treadly. Most people just don't realise, because the
actions are slight, and were part of the original learning/balance
process.

Tony F

That's 100% correct.
If you're going more than around 10km/h, there is no way you can turn a
bike without countersteering.
As far as cornering techniques, there are very few similarities between
motorcycle and bicycle.
I've only started bicycle road racing this year but I have 4 years of
SuperSport racing experience so I think I might have something useful
to add to the discussion.
The one thing m/c racers spend their time chasing is traction. No
traction = no corner speed and no acceleration or braking. There are
only two things you can do on a bike - change speed and change
direction, neither of which can be done competitively with poor grip.

I'll give you an idea of what happens in a simple corner on a race bike:
Approaching corner at speed, find 'braking marker' and 'end of braking
marker' sit up and start to brake hard, the rear wheel is usually just
skimming the surface or lifting.
Shift down while braking, move body weight off to the inside and push
hard on inside bar while releasing brake to unload the front suspension
so it can handle the turn.
Front tyre starts to slide (understeer) at this point so as you're
coming off the brake, you have to roll on the throttle to transfer
weight off the overloaded front and onto the rear as your knee touches
the ground.
(knee on the ground is used as a lean guage more than anything else -
unless of course you overcook it and it's actually holding you up) Keep
rolling the throttle on through the corner - usually roll it on a bit
slower at the apex/full lean as there's less grip. (a lot of accidents
happen here when paople for one reason or another roll off the throttle
- the front tyre just cannot handle that sort of load)
Pass the apex, start to roll on harder and push the bike upright onto a
larger contact patch whilst staying off the side to keep the CG down low.
There are a couple of things you can do here depending on the situation
- generally you put your weight on the outside peg for grip and
stability but if you're running wide, you can put it on the inside peg
to break traction for a second or so to induce oversteer - pointing the
bike closer to the inside of the track. The straight bits are easy.

The only thing that I've been able to bring from m/c racing to bicycles
is corner speed - I seem to be more comfortable than others I race
against at higher corner speeds - trouble is that they're more
comfortable at accelerating 😉

Thanks for your contribution and very interesting description. When
cornering fast on a bicycle, do you prefer to keep your body at the same
angle as the bicycle, or lean more/less than the bicycle?

Cheers,

Vince

I tend to keep my body leaned in more than the bike and keep the bike
more upright, inside shoulder forward, weight on the outer pedal. Force
of habit.

"Peter Signorini" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Lean the bike to turn and let the front do what it wants! My arms are
passive shock absorbers. Maybe I countersteer? Don't really know, I am
looking ahead, not at my bike.

This is the big difference between bicycles and motorbikes in the whole
countersteer thing. A bicycle can be leaned easily by a small body move by
the rider as the riders weight is such a great proportion of the total

mass.

Quoted message said:

It's a lot harder for a motorbiker to shift a 300kg motorbike.

Once you look into the corner, lean the bike, then the wheel drops with

the

Quoted message said:

castor effect, and you're turning. Countersteering is another way to do

it,

Quoted message said:

I've tried it, it works quite quick, but it's not what I do in a typical
smooth turn. Maybe a strategy for some sort of emergency turn.

Riding the bicycle and the motorcycle uses exactly the same theory. You can
countersteer quite nicely on both, and really push it to the 'edge' when
you're aware of it. The whole idea of countersteering in a motorcycle is
that the gyro effect of the front wheel (and fork) is actually the 'lever'
to tilt the rest of the bike behind the steering tube. Push a spinning
wheel one way and it makes a force the opposite direction. Everyone's done
it - hold a bicycle wheel by its axle, spin it quick and try to twist the
axle...
To go left, push the left side of the bars forward, and the bike will tip
left in by itself.
Much better to let the bike tip in by itself rather than having to clamber
all over it to make it lean - the smoother the better!

Gemm

Gemma_k said:

you're aware of it. The whole idea of countersteering in a motorcycle is
that the gyro effect of the front wheel (and fork) is actually the 'lever'
to tilt the rest of the bike behind the steering tube.

Exactly my point. On a bicycle you don't need that help, as your body weight
is such a large proportion of your total vehicle mass. A small body shift
will prduce a good tilt.

Quoted message said:

Push a spinning
wheel one way and it makes a force the opposite direction. Everyone's
done
it - hold a bicycle wheel by its axle, spin it quick and try to twist the
axle...

Try this - spin the wheel, now tilt the wheel over to the left, watch the
wheel promptly turn left.

Quoted message said:

To go left, push the left side of the bars forward, and the bike will tip
left in by itself.
Much better to let the bike tip in by itself rather than having to clamber
all over it to make it lean - the smoother the better!

I find smooth and controllable to come from my lean and turn, not some
alleged reverse push on the bars. I've been doing it for so long it's force
of habit.

--
Cheers
Peter

~~~ ~ _@
~~ ~ _- \,
~~ (*)/ (*)

Peter Signorini said:

I find smooth and controllable to come from my lean and turn, not some
alleged reverse push on the bars. I've been doing it for so long it's
force of habit.

Same here. My bike leans easily, so I focus more on the lean angle and what
direction I want to move in. I am happy if I can get the line through the
corner somewhere near optimised. Then I try and guess whether I am going
too fast to pedal or not. Generally I'm only travelling at 25-30 km/hr
around corners while commuting, so with a smooth line pedalling is still
possible.

Oh yeah, one day I would like to learn how to correct gracefully for bumps
when cornering. In my ignorance, I suspect that allowing the bike to move
around under you (mountain bike style?) is the best for rough corners. Is
that right?

Cheers,

Vince

flyingdutch said:

Jono L said:

Tip #1 Always look well around the corner ie. where you want to go, not
in the gutter were you will crash.

..and why? It aint cos you see where you are going (altho it does tend
to come in handy😄)
It's cos it shifts you weight, turns your torso/shoulders

best way to do emergency avoidance of
bolllard/cardoor/collingwood-supporter is by doing thus...

Why do you want to avoid a collingwood supporter?

Tam

Tamyka Bell said:

flyingdutch said:

Jono L said:

Tip #1 Always look well around the corner ie. where you want to go, not
in the gutter were you will crash.

..and why? It aint cos you see where you are going (altho it does tend
to come in handy😄)
It's cos it shifts you weight, turns your torso/shoulders

best way to do emergency avoidance of
bolllard/cardoor/collingwood-supporter is by doing thus...

Why do you want to avoid a collingwood supporter?

He's referring to an incident at a Kew crit last summer, I think.

Or, just generally avoiding idiots 🙂

Bleve said:

He's referring to an incident at a Kew crit last summer, I think.

Or, just generally avoiding idiots 🙂

No, I wasnt, but who knows? he was a friggin mtb(er) (who arent friggin by mmere definition but was in this scenario) who decided he would ride the wrong direction down the back straight and head-on an A-grader. grrrrr

Collie Supporters are a waste of spare parts 😄😄😄 <runs away>