Looking for MTB recommendations

bomba <[email hidden]> wrote in news:pan.2004.03.08.09.11.21.575521
@hotmail.com:

Quoted message said:

Hmm, well seeing as you're in Tampa, I'd totally agree
with your bike shop buddies and suggest you get something
with loads of suspension to cope with all those huge
mountains.

Have you ever ridden Alafia River State Park? Its not
British Columbia, but its not just a path through the woods
either. There are some descents out there where you could
get messed up *royally* if you endo.

BTW, thanks for your loads of helpful advice for a newbie.

- Boyd S.

Craig Brossman <[email hidden]> wrote in news:TV_2c.524$Vb6.222
@fe25.usenetserver.com:

Quoted message said:

You might want to look at Titus as well, and I have been
impressed with Specialized new line-up.

Apparently you missed the part where I said my choices were
limited to Ellsworth, Giant, Santa Cruz, and Marin.

- Boyd S.

"Penny S" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Dan Volker ran this through spell check:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>
You're so full of [censored]...

First, bomba, if anyone here is full of [censored], its a
newsgroup poser like yourself, who enjoys hurling
insults over the net, that would have you toothless in
real life. Because I don't want to buy in to the ss
cult, or your own version of what is the ultimate in
mountain biking, you start humping my leg.

since when are Hardtail and SS synonomous?

Did not say they were....I am referring to past discussions
and stereotypes. Dan V

"Dan Volker" <[email hidden]> wrote in
:"]news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

Boyd, If you raced road, or can ride well with Cat 2's,
then you should have an aerobic advantage over friends
which only mountain bike, but will be at a huge technical
skill disadvantage for quite some time to come---best way
to begin "enjoying" the mountain biking right away, on
technical trails ( another poster said you were in Tampa,
meaning Alafia is nearby, and it is very cool and quite
technical on many of its trails) would be to go the "All
Mountain" bike route, with 5 or 6 inches of full
suspension, which should be using SPV on front and back to
make best use out of your roadie cadence potential. This
bike will be heavier than the hardtails your long time
mountain biking buddies may be riding, but it will get you
through technical obstacles with less need for finesse,
and allow you to have fun immediately. Your aerobic
advantage should cover the extra weight of the bike, and
when you screw up and hit something really hard, the all
mountain bike should be tougher than the 20 pound X-
country alternative.

I'm actually a Cat 3 who can hang fairly well with most Cat
2's. I rode out at Alafia this morning with some buddies on
a borrowed VT. It was a very nice ride suspension-wise, but
hard to get used to the shifting as it was a rapid rise rear
derailleur. Once I traded rides with my buddy who was on a
Gary Fisher Sugar with traditional shifting, I was able to
keep my momentum better. Its suspension wasn't as plush as
the VT. One of my buddies told me it was more akin to the
NRS. But it got the job done fine.

Quoted message said:

Down side of this advise for you is that you are a light
rider, so bike weight will be more of an issue to you than
a 190 pound rider---but if you are going out to ride for
fun, I still think this is the best advise. If you are
hell bent to race, then the Santa Cruz Blur might be the
better route.

Yeah, I really haven't decided whether or not I'm going to
race. At this point I'm just out to have fun and learn how
to ride correctly. The Blur is a very sweet ride, but it
might be a little out of my budget.

Quoted message said:

Dan V

Thanks for the advice.

- Boyd S.

"p e t e f a g e r l i n" <[email hidden]> wrote
in :"]news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

petefagerlin.comouch f.jpgOpen ↗

Don't buy the ICT hype. They're four bar bikes, like many
others out there.

Also consider Ellsworth's very spotty customer service,
their "lifetime warranty" that is not a lifetime warranty
(their implementaion[charging customers for replacement
parts for frames with manufacturing defects] is actually
illegal) and the fact that Tony Ellsworth is lying sack of
[censored] and a poor excuse for a human being.

Thanks for the warning.

- Boyd S.

Boyd Speerschneider ran this through spell check:

Quoted message said:

Yeah, I really haven't decided whether or not I'm going to
race. At this point I'm just out to have fun and learn how
to ride correctly. The Blur is a very sweet ride, but it
might be a little out of my budget.

If, as you say you want to learn to ride "correctly" I
would again emphasize a hardtail. It teaches you so much
more about body language and finesse than learning on a
FS. Too many people start on a FS not understanding that
their body is part of the suspension, and not just the
shocks on the bike.

penny

Boyd Speerschneider said:

I will be riding what most would consider technical trails
at Alifia State Park and such. Lots of rocks, roots,
trees, and steep, treacherous climbs/descents.

Well, you've heard the bit about getting a hardtail to
"develop skills", but as I mentioned earlier, where there
are lots of rocks and roots, a full-suspension bike will
save you from being knocked around so much. You probably
won't develop the bike-handling skills that you would on a
hardtail (or rigid), but those kinds of trail can leave a
hardtail rider feeling like he's really taken a beating.

A light bike really makes a difference for those thousand-
foot climbs (trust me), but I don't suspect you have many of
those in Florida!

Odd that you're so unimpressed with Marin; I've heard
nothing but good things about them (and have been riding one
for 10 years). Its one of the few bikes that has actually
managed to stay in one piece for our 225-lb freak.

--
-BB- To reply to me, drop the attitude (from my e-mail
address, at least)

"Per Löwdin" <[email hidden]> wrote in news😄ZX2c.85420$dP1.239433
@newsc.telia.net:

Quoted message said:

The NRS are excellent, you get a lot for the money, and
people win races on them. The techically minded magazines
claim that NRS has a less active suspension than the FSR
on the Ellsworth: i.e., it locks up during hard breaking
or honking.

Check out mtbr.commtbr.comOpen ↗ there are lots of reviews.
The most interesting are those with bad critique.

Thanks for your help. I've all ready read a bunch of reviews
at mtbr.com, but most are either of the "this is the best
bike ever!!" or "this thing is a piece of [censored]!!" variety.
Not much objectivity over there.

- Boyd S.

"Penny S" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Boyd Speerschneider ran this through spell check:

Quoted message said:

Yeah, I really haven't decided whether or not I'm going
to race. At this point I'm just out to have fun and
learn how to ride correctly. The Blur is a very sweet
ride, but it might be a little out of my budget.

If, as you say you want to learn to ride "correctly" I
would again

emphasize

Quoted message said:

a hardtail. It teaches you so much more about body
language and finesse than learning on a FS. Too many
people start on a FS not understanding

that

Quoted message said:

their body is part of the suspension, and not just the
shocks on the bike.

penny

Penny, So far most members of this NG have ridiculed Florida
riding....the truth is, there was a plan to actually have
Olympic Mountain Biking at Alafia. Its not the lame course
you guys are assuming it is. I wish it had mountains, but at
least we have something local to ride.... From the
development of the river which runs around it, there is a
big development of ridges and whoop de doos, many over 30 to
40 feet high, and the steepness feels like straight up and
down for many of these---the moment you finish one climb or
drop, you may have an instantaneous right angle turn with
sudden drop---there is no sleeping on many of these trails.
I may pick up a helmet cam in the next 2 weeks, and if I do,
I'll shoot this for proof that Florida "can" be challenging
for just about anyone :-)

In any event, Alafia and many of the other Florida trails
are made to be very technical by the trail builders, to make
up for not having mountains---the dominant bikes on "these"
trails are full suspension bikes, not hardtails ( and I have
yet to see a ss rigid biker at Alafia or any of the other
technical trails in Florida :-)

Dan V

Dan Volker said:

Quoted message said:

You're so full of [censored]...

First, bomba, if anyone here is full of [censored], its a
newsgroup poser like yourself, who enjoys hurling insults
over the net, that would have you toothless in real life.

We've been here before. I rarely hurl insults, but I do
believe in a certain level of honesty. If you talk [censored] or
post idiotic comments then I'll call you on it. I expect the
same in return.

Secondly, I don't know where you get the idea that I'd be
toothless in 'real life'. As I mentioned before when you
posted some of your other baseless [censored], I'd quite happily
call you on it if we were chatting over a couple of beers.

Quoted message said:

Because I don't want to buy in to the ss cult, or your own
version of what is the ultimate in mountain biking, you
start humping my leg.

You've missed the point (again). This isn't about my views
about mountain biking, it's about yours. You consistently
spout your rather uninformed opinions as fact, and it comes
across badly.

Now, if you'd said something along the lines of: 'I also
come from a roadie background, ride in Florida and find a
full suspension bike to be the best for my local trails'
then we wouldn't be having this debate. Instead, you pushed
your 'ultimate version of mountain biking' by telling the OP
of "the best way" to enjoy their mountain biking.

Oh, and you really should work out what 'leg-humping' is.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

obstacles with less need for finesse, and allow you to
have fun

immediately.

Quoted message said:

Man, I can't wait to trade in my hardtails and rigid
bikes so I can get a full suspension bike and start
having fun.

Spoken like a moron who is incapable of giving good advice
to a "roadie" who wants to get in to mountain biking.

No, spoken like a mountain biker who finds your comments
uninformed. There are a few problems I have with your
statements. Firstly, the idea that ploughing through
obstacles without finesse is a good thing, secondly, the
idea that you have to go fast to have fun, and finally the
implication that to achieve this speed and fun, you need a
big, expensive double boinger.

Quoted message said:

Yeah, why don't you convince him he'll have lots of fun
riding technical trails his first week on a rigid ss bike.

What on earth are you talking about now?

Quoted message said:

I know a lot of roadies, and I have seen how they take
to mountain biking on x-country bikes, versus the ones
who have gotten big travel bikes. Either you don't know
any, or you care more about having them see the world
your way , than you do about them enjoying their first
year of mountain biking. If they don't like their first
few days or weeks, what is to keep them even on their
new mountain bike?

Who cares? If they don't enjoy mountain-biking then they
shouldn't do it. I'm not here to convince people that don't
enjoy it, that mountain biking is the one true way. Either
they'll get it or they won't, and you most certainly do not
need specific kit to get it.

Quoted message said:

Saddle them with a rigid, ss piece of [censored], and it will
almost guarantee they won't enjoy the sport long enough to
build skills--they'll be back on the road bike instead.

In which case, can I recommend a rigid SS for you?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Pfft! Why is the alternative to FS a 20lb whippet bike?
And why would a FS necessarily last longer than a well-
built 24lb hardtail?

Most road riders expect a good bike to be a "light bike".
Going from a 15 pound bike on the road, to a 20 pound
mountain bike will seem to many of them as a big jump in
weight and frame strength. They would have to have
"reasons" to want a heavier bike---whether it is a 24
pound hard tail or 30 pound all mountain full sus.

And I never said anything about the 24 pound hardtail not
lasting as long as the 30 pound "all mountain bike"

Which was my point. You weren't comparing like with like,
because it didn't suit your point of view. Comparing a 20lb
XC machine with a 30lb "all mountain bike" is not balanced.

I plucked 24lbs out of the ether, because that is a
reasonable weight for a strong HT and a better balance for
your comparison. Now how would you compare the long-term
reliability issues of said 24lb mtb with a 30lb "laz^H^H^H
all mountain bike"?

--
a.m-b FAQ: j-harris.netambfaq.htmOpen ↗

b.bmx FAQ: t-online.debmx faq.htmOpen ↗

BB said:

I don't know where the assumption that the OP was in
Tampa came from anyway - maybe just from the comment
about "hard-core mountain bikers" (those are all in
Florida, right?). ;-)

That was me. I checked his headers (Tampa RR) and then did a
quick group check to confirm.

--
a.m-b FAQ: j-harris.netambfaq.htmOpen ↗

b.bmx FAQ: t-online.debmx faq.htmOpen ↗

Dan Volker said:

"bomba" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

First, bomba, if anyone here is full of [censored], its a
newsgroup poser like yourself, who enjoys hurling insults
over the net, that would have you toothless in real life.
Because I don't want to buy in to the ss cult, or your own
version of what is the ultimate in mountain biking, you
start humping my leg.

Wow.

religiously clueless.

Quoted message said:

Saddle them with a rigid, ss piece of [censored], and it will
almost guarantee they won't enjoy the sport long enough to
build skills--they'll be back on the road bike instead.

Where did he write anything about SS? You certainly love
making huge assumptions that make you look like King Idiot
don't you?

Quoted message said:

And I never said anything about the 24 pound hardtail not
lasting as long as the 30 pound "all mountain bike"--this
is just more of your jumping to the conclusions you enjoy
jumping to....

How.....ironic.

Dan Volker said:

The point I'm trying to make--which you are actually
reinforcing, is that with all the time you have on a rigid
mountain bike, you should realize you do not ride
"anything" like a roadie who is about to begin riding for
the first time on a mountain bike.

And riding a road bike is nothing like riding a mountain
bike. Lesson number one.

Quoted message said:

If you really "want" new people to enjoy mountain
biking right out of the box, then advice needs to be
relevant to their abilities....not to yours. If you
want them to crash constantly, and for only the tougher
ones to make it through this initiation---fine, but at
least tell the truth.

No, what I would rather see is people ride within their
limits and taking in to account the different conditions and
obstacles. Yes, people will fall off, but that comes with
the territory and is all part of mountain biking.

You said before that I was trying to push my own version of
mountain biking. Well maybe I am. Mountain biking is not
about sanitized trails where you'll never crash. It's not
about being able to blast through a section as fast as
possible with the minimum effort. It's not about trying to
maintain a cadence with 6" suspension bikes. Mountain biking
is not road riding on dirt.

Quoted message said:

Bomba may be a good mountain bike rider, but he appears
to be clueless about what will be fun and reasonable for
a roadie to bite off, in their attempt to get into
mountain biking.

As I said in a different post, I just don't care. This isn't
a recruitment agency where we're trying to headhunt riders
from the dark side. Mountain biking is not road riding, it
requires different technique and skills. Why should roadies
be exempt from having to learn good mountain biking skills?

--
a.m-b FAQ: j-harris.netambfaq.htmOpen ↗

b.bmx FAQ: t-online.debmx faq.htmOpen ↗

Dan Volker ran this through spell check:

Quoted message said:

"Penny S" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Boyd Speerschneider ran this through spell check:

Quoted message said:

Yeah, I really haven't decided whether or not I'm going
to race. At this point I'm just out to have fun and
learn how to ride correctly. The Blur is a very sweet
ride, but it might be a little out of my budget.

If, as you say you want to learn to ride "correctly" I
would again emphasize a hardtail. It teaches you so much
more about body language and finesse than learning on a
FS. Too many people start on a FS not understanding that
their body is part of the suspension, and not just the
shocks on the bike.

penny

Penny, So far most members of this NG have ridiculed
Florida riding....the truth is, there was a plan to
actually have Olympic Mountain Biking at Alafia. Its not
the lame course you guys are assuming it is. I wish it had
mountains, but at least we have something local to
ride.... From the development of the river which runs
around it, there is a big development of ridges and whoop
de doos, many over 30 to 40 feet high, and the steepness
feels like straight up and down for many of these---the
moment you finish one climb or drop, you may have an
instantaneous right angle turn with sudden drop---there is
no sleeping on many of these trails. I may pick up a
helmet cam in the next 2 weeks, and if I do, I'll shoot
this for proof that Florida "can" be challenging for just
about anyone :-)

In any event, Alafia and many of the other Florida trails
are made to be very technical by the trail builders, to
make up for not having mountains---the dominant bikes on
"these" trails are full suspension bikes, not hardtails (
and I have yet to see a ss rigid biker at Alafia or any of
the other technical trails in Florida :-)

Dan V

what does any of that have to do with my general comments
about skill building and various kinds of suspension? I
don't care where you ride: Florida, Colorado or Egypt... if
you sit your butt on a FS and let the bike take the hits for
you, you don't learn much about skill building and bike
handling. Period.

penny

"P e t e F a g e r l i n" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Dan Volker said:

"bomba" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

First, bomba, if anyone here is full of [censored], its a
newsgroup poser like yourself, who enjoys hurling insults
over the net, that would have you toothless in real life.
Because I don't want to buy in to the ss cult,

or

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

your own version of what is the ultimate in mountain
biking, you start humping my leg.

Wow.

Quoted message said:

religiously clueless.

No. I just get annoyed when NG posters try to act like they
talk this way in real life..as if they could actually talk
this way and not get beaten up on a regular basis. I did not
begin this thread giving bomba a bunch of [censored]....I
responded to someone else-- a roadie, with a perspective I
have a right to--one that was intended to help...Bomba, and
now you, are both "acting" like bad asses....First, there is
no need for this on a newsgroup discussion where someone is
asking for advice, and second, acting like a bad ass on a
bicycling newsgroup is almost laughable---while there "could
be" a few "bad asses" on a cycling newsgroup, its not exacly
like hanging out with the competitors in the "Ultimate
Fighting Challenge". And if you "were" hanging out with a
group composed of many "bad asses" like UFC types, most of
them would not start up conversations the way either you or
bomba does. So if anyone has insecurity issues, its you guys
for trying to talk like such tough guys from the safety of
your keyboard. Sure you can "say" you would talk the same
way in a pub...I don't buy it, unless all the people in the
pub are 30 pounds smaller than either of you guys---maybe
its a midget pub ;-) .

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Saddle them with a rigid, ss piece of [censored], and it will
almost guarantee they won't enjoy the sport long enough
to build skills--they'll be back on the road bike
instead.

Where did he write anything about SS? You certainly love
making huge assumptions that make you look like King Idiot
don't you?

I see him as someone out to convert the world to his narrow
way of thinking...The ss tie in just fits.

Dan V

"Penny S" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

be very technical by the trail builders, to make up for
not having mountains---the dominant bikes on "these"
trails are full suspension bikes, not hardtails ( and I
have yet to see a ss rigid biker at Alafia or any of the
other technical trails in Florida :-)

Dan V

what does any of that have to do with my general comments
about skill building and various kinds of suspension? I
don't care where you ride: Florida, Colorado or Egypt...
if you sit your butt on a FS and let the

bike

Quoted message said:

take the hits for you, you don't learn much about skill
building and bike handling. Period.

penny

If the vast majority of locals and people in the state, have
decided to ride full suspension bikes at trails like Alafia,
then maybe you should consider the possibility that the
trails can be better enjoyed with full sus bikes---at least
until you ride it yourself and can have an informed opinion.

Dan V

Dan Volker said:

"P e t e F a g e r l i n" <[email hidden]>
wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Dan Volker said:

"bomba" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

First, bomba, if anyone here is full of [censored], its a
newsgroup poser like yourself, who enjoys hurling
insults over the net, that would have you toothless
in real life. Because I don't want to buy in to the
ss cult,

or

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

your own version of what is the ultimate in mountain
biking, you start humping my leg.

Wow.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

religiously clueless.

No. I just get annoyed when NG posters try to act like they
talk this way in real life..as if they could actually talk
this way and not get beaten up on a regular basis.

Do you live in a trailer park or something? Plenty of folks
talk like that in real life. If we were sitting in bar and
you started saying the incredibly dumb things that you have
been posting here, I would definitely point out your
silliness.

BTW, mentioning that you want to beat people up in
numerous replies make you seem to be a very unbalance and
insecure person.

I did not begin this thread giving bomba a bunch of

Quoted message said:

[censored]....I responded to someone else-- a roadie, with a
perspective I have a right to--one that was intended to
help...Bomba, and now you, are both "acting" like bad
asses....

So pointing out your idiocy/bad advice/cluelessness makes
one a "bad ass"?

There sure are a whole bunch of "bad asses" around
here then.

First, there is no need for this on a newsgroup

Quoted message said:

discussion where someone is asking for advice, and second,
acting like a bad

If someone gives BAD advice, there certainly is a need for
it.

Quoted message said:

ass on a bicycling newsgroup is almost laughable---while
there "could be" a few "bad asses" on a cycling newsgroup,
its not exacly like hanging out with the competitors in the
"Ultimate Fighting Challenge".

See above re: unbalanced and insecure.

Quoted message said:

And if you "were" hanging out with a group composed of many
"bad asses" like UFC types, most of them would not start up
conversations the way either you or bomba does.

See above re: unbalanced and insecure.

Quoted message said:

So if anyone has insecurity issues, its you guys for trying
to talk like such tough guys from the safety of your
keyboard. Sure you can "say" you would talk the same way in
a pub...I don't buy it, unless all the people in the pub
are 30 pounds smaller than either of you guys---maybe its a
midget pub ;-) .

See above re: unbalanced and insecure.

One way to protect yourself from comments that apparently
upset you a great deal is to refrain from posting stupid
stuff. Only you can control that.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Saddle them with a rigid, ss piece of [censored], and it will
almost guarantee they won't enjoy the sport long enough
to build skills--they'll be back on the road bike
instead.

Where did he write anything about SS? You certainly love
making huge assumptions that make you look like King
Idiot don't you?

I see him as someone out to convert the world to his narrow
way of thinking...The ss tie in just fits.

"narrow"? LOL.

Keep on making those assumptions cluewbie. They're still
mightily entertaining and you have a lock on retaining the
King Idiot crown for quite a while yet..

On Mon, 8 Mar 2004 14:13:37 -0500, "Dan Volker"
<[email hidden]> wrote: an informed

Quoted message said:

opinion.

Dan, that's the funniest bit yet.

You, and the phrase "informed opinion" in the same post.

Dan Volker said:

Bomba may be a good mountain bike rider, but he appears
to be clueless about what will be fun and reasonable for
a roadie to bite off, in their attempt to get into
mountain biking.

Dan V

The options were limited 20 years ago when I went from being
a roadie (for 5 years, 4 racing) to MTBs, but I seem to
recall doing OK going fully rigid. And 32 lbs at that! I
also recall riding some pretty technical stuff. Did bust an
axle on a 4 ft drop once though (damn freewheel hubs) I'm
still at it, musta been an OK choice. FWIW (and given what
you've paid for the advice) for complexity and cost reasons,
I'd steer the OP toward a hard tail.

Cheers, Shawn (loving my FS)

Boyd Speerschneider said:

"Penny S" <[email hidden]> wrote in
:"]news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

couple of thoughts: you don't say what kind of trails you
will be on...or your budget

As a beginner, I wouldn't consider myself a "trail
connoisseur". What I would consider technical others
would probably consider a piece of cake. I'll mostly be
riding at state parks and such that have trails
specifically designed and built by MTBers, ie. pretty
technical. As for the other part of your question, I'd
like to keep it under $1500.

Quoted message said:

HT vs FS one school of thought is that you build up a
better skills base learning to MTB on a hardtail, becuase
you learn more about how to respond to what's going on
with your bike and the trail. With inexperienced MB-ers
and FS, there's a tendency to just let the bike take the
hits, with out learning the skills that go with it.

Good point. Then again, most MTBers I've talked to around
here who started with HTs have either sold them or are
trying to do so. I figured I might as well just skip that
step to cut my inevitable financial losses.

Sounds like a buying opportunity. Make the financial
loss theirs.

$200 less from Joe Bob down the road..." A lot of FS
buying is for cool factor not performance. (Not in my case
though ;-)

Cheers, Shawn