Look Cleats Breaking ?

Richard Thompson said:

I suppose I could go back to using my trusty Cinneli pedals . They
were called suicide pedals for a reason. I won them in a 3 day stage
race back in the `70s.

according to the report this kid died when his pedal pulled out (albeit
it was a freak accident).

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2005/may05/may11news2

(2nd story : wisconsin rider dies)

Look pedals will put out if you pull up or back hard enough (you're
only likely to do this on a steep hill or for a sudden acceleration),
some other brands won't, simply because of the way the mechanism is
designed.

-Amit

In article <[email hidden]>,

Tom Kunich said:

The older Look cleats have had their molds replaced many times over the
years I would expect and have gotten progressively smaller and hence
they rattle around in the pedal more than originally.

Hmm, I'm not sure how replacing the molds would make the cleats smaller,
unless they purposely designed the new molds to be smaller. They'd have the
dimensions of the originals on file (Iwould hope!), and it would be a
simple matter to duplicate those dimensions. Even the French know how to
use calipers, micrometers and CMMs. I wonder if the newer cleats are made
differently, have a different material composition that shrinks more than
the original stuff as it sets up, or if the pedals are no longer then same
size (due to wear, or being deformed).

--
tanx,
Howard

Butter is love.

remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?

Sounds like you might have had the normal neuro exam and the normal CT but
you did not have the dependable observer to take you home. In that case, I
would think that they had not done things correctly. To jump to the idea
that the cause was insurance status is a bit of a leap. Doctors, like other
people, screw up on a fairly regular basis and sometimes it is difficult to
see why. My sister, who has had a prior blood clot in her leg, presented to
a ED with pain in that leg as well as chest pain and shortness of breath.
These are classic signs of blood clot in the lungs, a potentially life
threatening problem. She was, however, sent home after a very minimal
evaluation and scheduled for a test to look for a clot in her leg the
following day. Clearly this was wrong. It had nothing to do with insurance
or economic status as the physicians and hospital stood to make a fair
amount of money by doing the indicated testing that her insurance would have
paid for easily. In my experience economics are a fairly poor motivator of
individual decision making for physicians.

--
Mike Murray
"Richard Thompson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

It might be interesting to get Mike Murry and my soninlaw in a
disscussion . Steve Rider my son in law is a nurologist, also a good
biker, who is fanatic about cyclecross. I
was a bit shocked after ct scan and Xrays at how quick the were through
with me. Damn I was barefooted wearing bloody bike clothes, 25 miles
from home. The loan of a phone did find a ride , but what if I had not .
A taxi ? and I live alone in the woods. OK there is a house in woods.
Son in law called the next morning to see if I woke. Guess Helmet did
its job. I always have said ,,CARRY ID. its suprising
how many bikers don`t . This time I was not riding alone. I often do 200
mile rides with a tent, then ride back the next morning. We all might
should tell some one where we are going to ride.

@ @

~~~

On Sun, 08 May 2005 23:36:48 GMT, "Tom Kunich" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

"Richard Thompson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Anyone had look cleats break while standing going up hill . Yep I did
last sunday at 30 mph. Was a NASTY fall . Got a NOT FREE trip in
ambulance to hospital. Head and neck checked hospital was done with me.
Gee I was unconcious 45 min`s and they just take X rays and show me the
door. Has anyone had a
similar fall ? Richard

No. Though I've seen a lot of Look cleats fail from wear and the owner not
replacing them when necessary.

I have to tell you, if you can go up hill standing at 30 mph you're in shape
for the pros.

I just had mine replaced for that reason, wear and tear, just in time
for the new season. THe last pair I had did crack, but it was in an
accident. I didn't notice until I got home. However, since i was
injured and it was late in the season, that was kind of it for me.

REcently, a guy I know had his STEM crack- while he was DESCENDING a
hilly street. It didn't break, fortunately. ! He made it to his LBS
and it turns out the bolt had been too tight. Needless to say he was
just a tad rattled. He could have ended up looking like marinara
sauce!

Thanks Amit ,, I read the artical. Did not mention brand cleats
used, but seems similar to my fall as I was sorta attacking on a short
steep hill . Was told when cleat broke the loose foot hit pavement which
shows by scrapes on shoe. Then it seems I hit head and about everyother
part of me,,lol . But my cleat did not pull out, it broke in half. The
front and rear of cleat did not break off. Oh well many bought new
cleats since I fell or at least checked theirs.
Richard

At my request one local shop had new Look Cleats deliverd. They now
make a thinner cleat. Thinner cleats have nothing to do with older molds
being replaced. I agree the French can make accurate measuments. Simply
look at Look web site. The Look Knockoff cleats do not have wear
indicators or teflon as the newer Look Cleats do. I would not use the
Knockoffs. Gee only a $5 saving.

@ @

~~~

Mike I agree I might should have not been alone that first nite. Guess I
should either get married again or just rent out a few rooms. I did take
a good wack on my head, Hmmmm could be the toughest part of my body. At
least my daughter and son in law called the next morning.
Blood clots are noting to ignore.
Richard

Blanshay I have seen falls caused by handlebars snapping in final
sprints. nasty falls. Taylor Hogan had this happen in Tallahassy Fla
Lucky for him he hit the curb ,,then soft grass.

@ @

~~~

It sounds as though you got a shoulder separation. The pain is likely
to stick around for some time if that's the case. Mine took about a
year to go away on the worst side. Six months or so for the other side.

Howard,

Because plastic shrinks the real cleat model which is used to produce
the mold is made a little larger. Over the years they lose the original
cleat model. Then, when renewing the mold they use a regular cleat as a
model. If you use a cleat instead of the model the end result is that
the new mold produces a cleat a little bit smaller. Then when the make
a new mold from the new smaller cleat it comes out a little smaller
again.

There isn't much difference, only a percent or so, but over time it
adds up and makes a smaller cleat. All you have to do is try using the
old style cleat in a good look pedal and you can tell immediately that
something is wrong. The latest cleats have obviously been made properly
sized and the difference is instantly noticeable.

"Tom Kunich" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Howard,

Because plastic shrinks the real cleat model which is used to produce
the mold is made a little larger. Over the years they lose the original
cleat model. Then, when renewing the mold they use a regular cleat as a
model. If you use a cleat instead of the model the end result is that
the new mold produces a cleat a little bit smaller. Then when the make
a new mold from the new smaller cleat it comes out a little smaller
again.

Why would they do that instead of using the original specs they used for the
initial molds?

In article <[email hidden]>,

Tom Kunich said:

"Howard Kveck" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Well, for any kind of plastic item that is to be made in quantities
greater than a few (say, one or two pieces), no molds are made from an
existing item, like a cleat. The molds for a mass produced part are
machined from at least two pieces of aluminum or other metal (a top and
bottom for a very simple part), to many pieces for a complicated piece
that
has overhangs, pockets or other features.

For crying out loud Howard - just look at the damned cleat - it is a
straight draw mold. This is supposed to be a profitable item and so the
molds are as cheap as they can be made.

Indeed. But it's still going to be made the same way. They're going to
be inexpensive but still effective. The point I was making is that the
molds aren't made from an existing part, they're machined to dimensions on
a drawing or CAD file. I'm going to be making a mold for a project I have
soon, and take it to the plastic shop that used to be next door to my shop
for production.

--
tanx,
Howard

Butter is love.

remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?

Tom Kunich said:

Because it might cost $5,000 for the model to make the mold or even more in
France. And the French, for those unaware of it, are some of the, uhhhh,
thriftiest people I've ever met. One French company I worked for I got to
work early in the morning and discovered the bosses wife washing out the
paper coffee filters for reuse!!!

And the moral of the story is: Don't buy French condoms (AKA freedom
letters) ?

Tom Kunich said:

"Howard Kveck" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Well, for any kind of plastic item that is to be made in

quantities

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

greater than a few (say, one or two pieces), no molds are made from

an

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

existing item, like a cleat. The molds for a mass produced part are
machined from at least two pieces of aluminum or other metal (a top

and

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

bottom for a very simple part), to many pieces for a complicated

piece

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

that
has overhangs, pockets or other features.

For crying out loud Howard - just look at the damned cleat - it is a
straight draw mold. This is supposed to be a profitable item and so

the

Quoted message said:

molds are as cheap as they can be made.

Hey Tom
When I worked at Kellogg Brush as a mechanic and machine set-up guy
they did things exactly the way Howard is describing with their molds
and those were for things like brush handles which sell a lot for less
than cleats. The only thing they did was to have a "library" of the
prototype molds along with all the documentation as a reference in case
they ever needed them. Since all the stuff they were making was pretty
small this was no big deal to do and they were pretty picky about
getting exactly what they wanted.
I didn't work down in molding much so I don't know a lot of the
details, but the system sounds exactly like what Howard is describing
from talking to the engineers and mechanics down there.
Bill C

Mike Murray said:

For the most part here in the US the
crisis of people lacking medical insurance is primarily an issue of
people electing NOT to purchase rather than being unable to purchase.

Were that so, there'd be no need to call it a crisis. BTW,
http://anonymous.coward.free.fr/scpo/insured.png

"Robert Chung" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Mike Murray said:

For the most part here in the US the
crisis of people lacking medical insurance is primarily an issue of
people electing NOT to purchase rather than being unable to purchase.

Were that so, there'd be no need to call it a crisis. BTW,
http://anonymous.coward.free.fr/scpo/insured.png

Here's the problem Robert - insurance companies have a great deal. Most of
the insurance in this country is for the healthiest segment of the
population - those working. Companies purchase health insurance policies and
this allows insurance companies to overprice all of their other private
insurance with the positive logic that those who aren't insured by company
policies are those who can't work either from age or infirmity.

Moreover, the US Government has made it very easy for companies because they
can write off the insurance and workers aren't taxed on it.

This is a BIG WIN for those who are healthy and of working age and it's [censored]
poor for everyone else.

The problem is, how do you put in place incentives for the insurance
companies to broaden their membership policies.

For one thing I wouldn't allow companies to write off health insurance.
Secondly I wouldn't allow workers to obtain free medical policies without
paying income tax on the hidden income.

This would provide incentives for companies to simply pay workers a stipend
for insurance coverage and it would provide insurance companies the horrible
alternative of insuring 'neighborhood' groups like they do in Germany and
some other European countries. This would mean that they set their insurance
rates for a general population rather than the healthiest subset.

Insurance companies need economic pressure to provide more general coverage,
but of course it needs to be done within the framework of the Constitution.

"Bill C" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Tom Kunich said:

"Howard Kveck" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Well, for any kind of plastic item that is to be made in

quantities

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

greater than a few (say, one or two pieces), no molds are made from

an

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

existing item, like a cleat. The molds for a mass produced part are
machined from at least two pieces of aluminum or other metal (a top

and

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

bottom for a very simple part), to many pieces for a complicated

piece

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

that
has overhangs, pockets or other features.

For crying out loud Howard - just look at the damned cleat - it is a
straight draw mold. This is supposed to be a profitable item and so

the

Quoted message said:

molds are as cheap as they can be made.

Hey Tom
When I worked at Kellogg Brush as a mechanic and machine set-up guy
they did things exactly the way Howard is describing with their molds
and those were for things like brush handles which sell a lot for less
than cleats. The only thing they did was to have a "library" of the
prototype molds along with all the documentation as a reference in case
they ever needed them. Since all the stuff they were making was pretty
small this was no big deal to do and they were pretty picky about
getting exactly what they wanted.
I didn't work down in molding much so I don't know a lot of the
details, but the system sounds exactly like what Howard is describing
from talking to the engineers and mechanics down there.
Bill C

The system is as Howard states except that when you don't have the file on
the cleat you make one up by drawing it using a production cleat to measure
from.

Here's a question - I have a couple of new old-style cleats. These rattle in
a new Look pedal but work OK in my old Shimano Look-type pedals.

I bought the latest Look Delta cleats with the teflon inner areas and they
click in solidly.

Obviously there's a size difference here.

Do you suppose that they made the new cleats larger? Or that the old style
were originally undersized? Or that there's something in the process that
changes over time?

"Robert Chung" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Mike Murray said:

For the most part here in the US the
crisis of people lacking medical insurance is primarily an issue of
people electing NOT to purchase rather than being unable to purchase.

Were that so, there'd be no need to call it a crisis. BTW,
http://anonymous.coward.free.fr/scpo/insured.png

BTW, what the hell do you think you're seeing with that graph?

Obviously you got some that were out of spec. I have to wonder if
they weren't outsourced to someone who wasn't as concerned about QC, or
they tried a cheaper plastic. I'd be really surprised if the problem
was in the molds at the plant Look had been making them at. We're never
going to know exactly what caused it. I'm sure they figured it out
pretty quickly, but they obviously weren't far enough out of spec to
reprocess. It really wouldn't surprise me to find out that they were
outsourced.
Bill C

In article <[email hidden]>,

Tom Kunich said:

The system is as Howard states except that when you don't have the file on
the cleat you make one up by drawing it using a production cleat to measure
from.

Well, since the pedals (and, by extension, the accompanying cleat) are a
mainstay of Look's business, I'd be pretty stunned to find out they don't
have a drawing or CAD file on hand. Stranger things have happened, but
still... Reverse engineering (aka "copying"😉 is exactly how someone would
make unauthorized aftermarket ones. A smart engineer would know to increase
the size because the shrink rates of the plastic are known (or ought to be).

Quoted message said:

Here's a question - I have a couple of new old-style cleats. These rattle in
a new Look pedal but work OK in my old Shimano Look-type pedals.

I bought the latest Look Delta cleats with the teflon inner areas and they
click in solidly.

Obviously there's a size difference here.

Do you suppose that they made the new cleats larger? Or that the old style
were originally undersized? Or that there's something in the process that
changes over time?

Possibly (as Bill suggested) they were outsourced to a different vendor.
Or perhaps differences in material, heating rates prior to injection or
pressure of the injection (there are a few other variables, but those are
the main ones). The ones with the teflon inserts would be made from a very
different mold, however, as putting the two different materials in the same
finished piece is a two stage process.

--
tanx,
Howard

Butter is love.

remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?