Light for commuting

crabsallover said:

Tony Raven said:

If you only want to be seen on lit streets you don't need 12W. One
of the compact bright LED lights is more than enough and the
batteries will last for ages.

This one is great for being seen
http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/Models.aspx?ModelID=1389

The bright 3 LED Polaris model has just been superceded by a brighter
5 LED Polaris model:
http://www.beseenonabike.com/shopuk/product_info.php?products_id=168

Smart may claim 50 hour run time but all that won't be at full brightness.
I think the older model has a longer run time.

~PB

If you want to BE SEEN day or night, then a bright yellow top is the
single most important thing - and probably more significant for safety
than any other measure inc helmet wearing IMHO.
In addition at night you need maximum reflective strips etc - esp big
on your back where it can be highly visible from a long way off in a
car headlights. Also reflectors everywhere inc sideways on wheels.
I don't see the point of flickering led lights - they are off by
definition for half(?) the time and hence less visible. Worst of all
are white flickering front leds which can be barely visible and might
induce false sense of security.
The most visible back lights are the heavy old style ever-ready type
with a big lens and 2 u2 batteries. Unfashionable I know but its
obvious if you drive much at night. Better still if combined with led
lights and a lot of reflection.
If you want to SEE then my favoured option is an axa bottle dynamo with
combined light which clamps on to the front fork and is easily removed.
Its a brilliant light (as long as you are moving) and has a good
sideways spread which helps if you are going fast in narrow lanes.
I've been driving a lot lately on country roads and in town at about
rush hour times and I amazed at the number of suicidal cyclists who
travel about dressed in a sort of autumnal camouflage with barely
visible tiny flickering LEDs. Madness. "Stealth" cyclists - now you
see em now you don't!

cheers

Jacob

Quoted message said:

If you want to BE SEEN day or night, then a bright yellow top is the
single most important thing - and probably more significant for safety
than any other measure inc helmet wearing IMHO.

Not as safe as wearing a police reflective jacket but unfortunately that
is illegal for most of us ;-)

--
Tony

"The best way I know of to win an argument is to start by being in the
right."
- Lord Hailsham

Quoted message said:

I don't see the point of flickering led lights - they are off by
definition for half(?) the time and hence less visible. Worst of all
are white flickering front leds which can be barely visible and might
induce false sense of security.

But the human vision is atuned to movement and a flashing light
introduces movement. The emergency services use blue flashing lights
and work vehicles and abnormal loads use yellow flashing lights
because they are more visible than steady ones. The visibility of LED
cycle lights in flashing mode is dependant on their rate of flash IMO,
some flash too quickly and could be descibed as flickering as you say.
It also helps if the lights in question have fresh batteries, I
regularly see lights that are barely glowing and some of these are
made even worse by not being aligned for maximum visibility; what is
the point of a light being visible only by moles or top seat bus
passengers?
--
Phil Cook looking north over the park to the "Westminster Gasworks"

Phil Cook said:

Quoted message said:

I don't see the point of flickering led lights - they are off by
definition for half(?) the time and hence less visible. Worst of all
are white flickering front leds which can be barely visible and might
induce false sense of security.

But the human vision is atuned to movement and a flashing light
introduces movement. The emergency services use blue flashing lights
and work vehicles and abnormal loads use yellow flashing lights
because they are more visible than steady ones. The visibility of LED
cycle lights in flashing mode is dependant on their rate of flash IMO,
some flash too quickly and could be descibed as flickering as you say.
It also helps if the lights in question have fresh batteries, I
regularly see lights that are barely glowing and some of these are
made even worse by not being aligned for maximum visibility; what is
the point of a light being visible only by moles or top seat bus
passengers?

Well yes flashing lights are used by emergency services etc but is this
to make them more visible? I think not - is not the purpose also to
identify them as emergency services, unusual loads etc? Does a cyclist
need identifying as such? Not necessarily - all road users need to know
is that this is another road user to be avoided.
A similar situation exists with night navigation at sea - flashing
lights are used extensively to identify individual beacons, light
houses etc with coded flashes, as an aid to position finding, but
nevertheless a steady light is much easier to see. A flashing lights
can be missed especially if you are moving relative to it. I find a
flashing bike light can get overlooked especially in towns when there
is a lot of distraction and other lighting from many sources.

cheers

Jacob

Quoted message said:

Phil Cook said:

Quoted message said:

I don't see the point of flickering led lights - they are off by
definition for half(?) the time and hence less visible. Worst of all
are white flickering front leds which can be barely visible and might
induce false sense of security.

But the human vision is atuned to movement and a flashing light
introduces movement. The emergency services use blue flashing lights
and work vehicles and abnormal loads use yellow flashing lights
because they are more visible than steady ones. The visibility of LED
cycle lights in flashing mode is dependant on their rate of flash IMO,
some flash too quickly and could be descibed as flickering as you say.
It also helps if the lights in question have fresh batteries, I
regularly see lights that are barely glowing and some of these are
made even worse by not being aligned for maximum visibility; what is
the point of a light being visible only by moles or top seat bus
passengers?

Well yes flashing lights are used by emergency services etc but is this
to make them more visible? I think not - is not the purpose also to
identify them as emergency services, unusual loads etc? Does a cyclist
need identifying as such? Not necessarily - all road users need to know
is that this is another road user to be avoided.
A similar situation exists with night navigation at sea - flashing
lights are used extensively to identify individual beacons, light
houses etc with coded flashes, as an aid to position finding, but
nevertheless a steady light is much easier to see. A flashing lights
can be missed especially if you are moving relative to it. I find a
flashing bike light can get overlooked especially in towns when there
is a lot of distraction and other lighting from many sources.

PS its just occurred to me - emergency lights and light-houses also
flash because they are a rotating high intensity beam designed to
project a long way. An all round light of the same intensity would be
impossibly bright.
Just off for a quick belt on me bike - I may be some time but I've got
my yellow top and lights etc.

cheers

Quoted message said:

Jacob

Quoted message said:

If you want to BE SEEN day or night, then a bright yellow top is the
single most important thing - and probably more significant for safety
than any other measure inc helmet wearing IMHO.

I read an interesting article that suggested that the bright yellow
fluorescent jacket was now so ubiquitous that its attention grabbing
nature had severely diminished. Apparently the best way to become
invisible is to put on a high vis jacket..

Now, a bright pink jacket is still unique enough to be noticeable in a
city environment.

...d

Quoted message said:

I don't see the point of flickering led lights - they are off by
definition for half(?) the time and hence less visible.

That's not a problem when they flash fast quickly. The flashing effect
makes them *more noticeable* than a steady light of at least similar
brightness, and also *different* from other types of vehicles that use
steady lights. The fact that a lot of cyclists use poxy models and with
dead batteries doesn't mean the type of light is bad as a whole.

~PB

"David Martin" <[email hidden]> writed in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

If you want to BE SEEN day or night, then a bright yellow top is the
single most important thing - and probably more significant for safety
than any other measure inc helmet wearing IMHO.

I read an interesting article that suggested that the bright yellow
fluorescent jacket was now so ubiquitous that its attention grabbing
nature had severely diminished. Apparently the best way to become
invisible is to put on a high vis jacket..

Now, a bright pink jacket is still unique enough to be noticeable in a
city environment.

I've gone over to 'railway orange' after coming to a similar conclusion.
New York City traffic police tops seem to be a good colour combination.

Mike the Unshavable said:

I've gone over to 'railway orange' after coming to a similar conclusion.
New York City traffic police tops seem to be a good colour combination.

The demise of Karrimor meant the end of the City SOS top. An orange so
bright that it hurt the eyes to look at it in the shop. If I'd thought
it would have made any difference, I'd have bought one. Riding with a 3W
LED on the front and at least 5 at the back, combined with being in the
middle of the lane for > 90% of the time had a significant effect on the
number of near misses I suffered.

Jon

Quoted message said:

Riding with a 3W
LED on the front and at least 5 at the back, combined with being in the
middle of the lane for > 90% of the time had a significant effect on the
number of near misses I suffered.

Your stealth outfit increased them?

David Martin said:

Quoted message said:

If you want to BE SEEN day or night, then a bright yellow top is the
single most important thing - and probably more significant for safety
than any other measure inc helmet wearing IMHO.

I read an interesting article that suggested that the bright yellow
fluorescent jacket was now so ubiquitous that its attention grabbing
nature had severely diminished. Apparently the best way to become
invisible is to put on a high vis jacket..

Now, a bright pink jacket is still unique enough to be noticeable in a
city environment.

..d

Nothing against pink but I think bright yellow is tops BECAUSE it is so
ubiquitous i.e. to an inattentive driver on autopilot bright yellow
means plods or roadworkers - to be slowed down for and avoided without
having to think about it for a second.

Pete Biggs said:

Quoted message said:

I don't see the point of flickering led lights - they are off by
definition for half(?) the time and hence less visible.

That's not a problem when they flash fast quickly. The flashing effect
makes them *more noticeable* than a steady light of at least similar
brightness, and also *different* from other types of vehicles that use
steady lights. The fact that a lot of cyclists use poxy models and with
dead batteries doesn't mean the type of light is bad as a whole.

~PB

Yebbut it seems to me that the smaller a light is and the more
intermittent it is (flashing or flickering) the more probable it is
that it will be unnoticed in marginal circumstances. I agree that a
faster flicker will be more noticeable - more so when it is so fast as
to appear continuous!

cheers
Jacob

Phil Cook said:

Quoted message said:

I don't see the point of flickering led lights - they are off by
definition for half(?) the time and hence less visible. Worst of all
are white flickering front leds which can be barely visible and might
induce false sense of security.

But the human vision is atuned to movement and a flashing light
introduces movement. The emergency services use blue flashing lights
and work vehicles and abnormal loads use yellow flashing lights
because they are more visible than steady ones.

Work vehicles use yellow flashing lights for no good reason, apparently. At
least I can't see why a truck with a car securely tied on its back driving
down the M6 needs to stick out of the rest of traffic for miles around by
its flashing lights.

Also, having tried to work out where the 3 police cars with the blue
flashing lights that overtook me last night as I was driving round a
roundabout that is of barely acceptable standard last night, I don't think
flashing lights are at all easy to locate.

Also, they don't tell you when the ordinarily lit car that they're chasing
is about to overtake you either, but it just missed me, so that was OK.

That said, flashing lights on bikes in built up areas may well make sense,
as it's trivially easy to see where the bike is, and the only reason a light
is needed is that many road users will expect all moving things to have
lights on them. Also, when overtaking a bike in a car, it's very useful to
have a front light on the back so you know when it's safe to pull in again.
--
Ambrose

Quoted message said:

If you want to BE SEEN day or night, then a bright yellow top is the
single most important thing - and probably more significant for safety
than any other measure inc helmet wearing IMHO.

Not long ago I saw someone with a bright yellow top with reflective
stripes, and no lights or reflectors on his bike, and dark trousers.

In dipped headlights, he showed up surprisingly poorly at the point
he was no longer hidden from me by a truck. (Not so poorly that
there was any danger of my hitting him, but a lot worse than a bike
light or a lower placed reflector (e.g. pedal reflectors) normally
does.)

in message <[email hidden]>,

(') said:

If you want to BE SEEN day or night, then a bright yellow top is the
single most important thing - and probably more significant for safety
than any other measure inc helmet wearing IMHO.

No. A bright yellow top is precisely zero use at night. Without ambient
ultra-violet fluresents don't flures, and at night there are no
significant sources of ultra-violet.

Quoted message said:

In addition at night you need maximum reflective strips etc - esp big
on your back where it can be highly visible from a long way off in a
car headlights. Also reflectors everywhere inc sideways on wheels.

It helps if the reflectives outline the shape of your body - disconnected
'blobs' of reflective are hard for the viewer to recognise as a human
shape. By contrast, reflective pinstriping which makes a visual 'stick
figure' (or one of the reflective skeleton jerseys from e.g. Foska) are
instantly recognisable as human.

Quoted message said:

I don't see the point of flickering led lights - they are off by
definition for half(?) the time and hence less visible. Worst of all
are white flickering front leds which can be barely visible and might
induce false sense of security.

The human eye is much better at noticing flashing lights than steady
ones, especially against background clutter. This is precisely why
almost all marine and aeronautical navigation marks have flashing
lights.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
Wannabe a Web designer?
<URL:http://userfriendly.org/cartoons/archives/97dec/19971206.html>

Simon Brooke said:

in message <[email hidden]>,

(') said:

If you want to BE SEEN day or night, then a bright yellow top is the
single most important thing - and probably more significant for
safety than any other measure inc helmet wearing IMHO.

No. A bright yellow top is precisely zero use at night. Without
ambient ultra-violet fluresents don't flures, and at night there are
no significant sources of ultra-violet.

I know what you mean but you're going OTT there. It's not zero use if it
happens to be closer to white in colour than anything else you have.
They'll be no florescent effect but these things tend to be very light
coloured so show up at night better than dark colours. My yellow jacket
stands out well under street lighting -- I've seen it from a distance on
someone else -- and must be better than a dark jacket on country roads too
when lit by a car's full beam.

Of course it makes sense to have/add retro-reflectives in addition.

~PB

Simon Brooke said:

in message <[email hidden]>,

(') said:

If you want to BE SEEN day or night, then a bright yellow top is the
single most important thing - and probably more significant for safety
than any other measure inc helmet wearing IMHO.

No. A bright yellow top is precisely zero use at night. Without ambient
ultra-violet fluresents don't flures, and at night there are no
significant sources of ultra-violet.

Nonsense - bright yellow tops really stand out if you catch one in your
headlights.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

In addition at night you need maximum reflective strips etc - esp big
on your back where it can be highly visible from a long way off in a
car headlights. Also reflectors everywhere inc sideways on wheels.

It helps if the reflectives outline the shape of your body - disconnected
'blobs' of reflective are hard for the viewer to recognise as a human
shape. By contrast, reflective pinstriping which makes a visual 'stick
figure' (or one of the reflective skeleton jerseys from e.g. Foska) are
instantly recognisable as human.

Nonsense - any reflective blobs whatever the shape give a warning to a
driver that there is something to avoid. Is he going to think that
maybe its a hedgehog with mis-shaped reflective strips?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I don't see the point of flickering led lights - they are off by
definition for half(?) the time and hence less visible. Worst of all
are white flickering front leds which can be barely visible and might
induce false sense of security.

The human eye is much better at noticing flashing lights than steady
ones, especially against background clutter. This is precisely why
almost all marine and aeronautical navigation marks have flashing
lights.

Well yes a flashing light would be obvious against a background of
steady lights - but the main reason for the flashing is to give an
identity to the light for navigation purposes. A driver on a road
doesn't need to know the identity of the light source - he just needs
to avoid hitting it.
Having done many hours of night sailing I can say that flashing lights
are often hard to spot and easily lost sight of, compared to a steady
light. The flash is necessary for identity but is not an aid to
visibility per se.
In a background of flashing lights a steady light would stand out. So
what - a driver just needs to see a light whatever it is doing , and
avoid hitting the source.
The human eye is much more likely to miss flashing lights than steady
ones, in marginal cicumstances e.g. if it coincides with blinks,
windscreen wipers or any other interruption. Pretty blindingly obvious
really that a light which is switched off for whatever period is more
likely to be overlooked.

cheers

Jacob

PS perhaps an experiment with hedgehogs wearing variations of flashing
lights, refective strips, painted yellow, camouflage jackets etc?

Quoted message said:

It helps if the reflectives outline the shape of your body - disconnected
'blobs' of reflective are hard for the viewer to recognise as a human
shape. By contrast, reflective pinstriping which makes a visual 'stick
figure' (or one of the reflective skeleton jerseys from e.g. Foska) are
instantly recognisable as human.

So if I cut out a hedgehog shape in reflective material and stick it on
my back does this mean that I am more likely to get run over than if I
had nothing very visible?