Lies

Quoted message said:

Subject: Lies
From: "Rich Shewmaker" [email hidden]
Date: 12/26/2003 9:27 PM Central Standard Time
Message-id: <[email hidden]>

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To Jan:

Perhaps you do not understand exactly what is a lie.

Perhaps you are full of [censored].

Quoted message said:

From m-w.comhome.htmOpen ↗ :

Main Entry: 3lie Function: verb Inflected Form(s): lied; ly=B7ing /'lI-i[ng]/ Etymology: Middle
English, from Old English lEogan; akin to Old High = German liogan to lie, Old Church Slavonic
lugati Date: before 12th century intransitive senses
1 : to make an untrue statement with intent to deceive
2 : to create a false or misleading impression transitive senses : to bring about by telling lies
<lied his way out of

=trouble>

Quoted message said:

Please note the word "intent" in the first definition. When Kruschev = said, "We will bury you!"
was he lying? NO! He was mistaken, and his = statement was untrue, but he believed it to be true
and he had no intent = to deceive. If you asked one of your day care children, "What's

two and =

Quoted message said:

two?" and she replied, "Three," was she lying? Of course not. She was = mistaken, but was not
trying to deceive you. The intent is what makes = the lie, not the incorrectness of the statement.
So you cannot justify = calling everyone who makes an incorrect statement a liar.=20

Quoted message said:

To "prove the lie with their own words," as you like to say, you have to = prove two things...that
their words were incorrect, AND that they were = said with the intent to deceive

I have never seen you successfully do, =

Quoted message said:

or even attempt, either.

Then you haven't been paying attention. I have done exactly that.

Example.

Quoted message said:

ratbags.comdeadkids.htmOpen ↗

Ben Kolb

Ben Kolb was killed by a tragic mistake when he was given an injection of adrenaline instead of an
anaesthetic. The error occurred because things were not labelled correctly in the operating theatre.
The injection that Ben was supposed to receive has been given tens of thousands of times before and
it is because his reaction was so obviously atypical that the theatre staff knew immediately that
something had gone wrong. Despite desperate efforts to save his life, Ben died. Ben's parents were
notified as soon as the problem was identified and the surgeon, hospital and anaesthetist all
admitted responsibility. A year later, the anaesthetist still breaks down and cries in public when
reminded of Ben's death

Some proponents of "alternative medicine" have tried to make an issue out of Ben's death, apparently
on the basis that a mistake made by real doctors somehow has something to do with children dying
because pretend doctors treat them with snake oil.

Lie #1 Meant to deceive.

No such thing was done, and Peter has not been able to post any proof of this. He made it up.

If the adrenaline had been deliberately administered to Ben as part of some mad, unproven treatment
protocol invented by someone with no medical training, no knowledge of science and no justification
other than their own idiosyncratic quackery then it would have been something to do with
"alternative medicine".

It has to do with the fact that there is no reason to take the medication out of the bottles and put
in unlabeled bowls. It has to do with the fact that we have a piece meal system for reporting these
mistakes, therefore Dateline investigated and found many hospitals using this procedure which should
have never been used in the first place. It has to do with the sloppy unnecessary procedure which no
one can explain.

Peter would like to overlook all this, by attacking the person who posted the URL of the
Dateline report.

Quoted message said:

When I first went to the web site of the lawyers who acted for Ben Kolb's

parents in their negotiations with the hospital, I expected to find some ambulance chasers in full
flight. Instead, when I looked there I was pleasantly surprised to find a balanced and sensitive
approach to the incident and the doctors who were as much a part of the tragedy as the parents. The
attitude of the parents' lawyers stands in stark contrast to the way "alternative medicine"
supporters

Lie # 2. Meant to deceive

There was no stark contrast. Peter has been asked to post this, he can't, he made it up.

attempt to demonise the people who made a tragic mistake.

Lie # 3 Intent to deceive

There was no demonising of the people who made a tragic mistake. Peter has been asked to post thiis
demonizing, he can't, it didn't happen, he made it up.

In fact, here is what was said.

From: Jan ([email hidden]) Subject: Re: A Lesson from Ben Newsgroups: misc.health.alternative
View: Complete Thread (21 articles) | Date: 2002-01-02 11:01:59 PST

<snipping to the *only* thing said about the doctor>

Yes. They did the right thing and my heart goes out to the doctor, and all those involved. The
parents in turn also did the right thing and dropped the lawsuit. I was indeed very sad for
everyone. This is why I started my post with this sentence.

This post is NOT intended to go after any *ONE* individual.

NO demonizing whatsoever.

Quoted message said:

You throw the words "lie" and "liar" around wily-nily

No, I most certainly do not.

Quoted message said:

as if you have a = franchise on their definition. You do not.=20

That is absurd.

Quoted message said:

You are quite rude, Madam

That's what was said about all people who had the guts to stand up and do the right thing.

Rude in fact is spelled Andrew Kingoff/fake ilsa.

Proof.

From: [email hidden] (Ilsa9)

Quoted message said:

Date: 7/29/2003 6:13 AM Pacific Standard Time Message-id: <20030729101302.28299.00000648@mb-
m24.aol.com> Brights are YOUR moral, ethical, and physical superiors. They are the people who
actually do something useful with their lives in stark contrast to the steaming bags of feces which
are rb, GymBob, Debbee1023, Jan Drewcifer, and Stuart Hyderman.

Drew Perform Dental surgery on you, and DIE. (In that order, please)

Quoted message said:

From: [email hidden] (Ilsa Nein) Date: 12/25/2001 10:57 AM Eastern Standard Time Message-id:
<[email hidden]>

John,

I hope that you develop many serious disabilities.

I hope that Jan Drew installs 2 dozen amalgams in your molars.

I hope that you bathe with a plugged-in hair dryer.

I hope that OJ Simpson suspects you of being "the real killer" of Nicole Brown & Ron Goldman.

I hope that Karma continues to run over your dogma.

Why, because you are a VILE, SPAMMING, PIECE OF [censored].

From: Ilsa Nein ([email hidden]) Subject: Re: Deconstructing Atlas, Part I Newsgroups:
misc.health.alternative Date: 2001-09-12 11:45:04 PST

From: Ilsa Nein ([email hidden]) Subject: Re: Un- Deconstructing Atlas and the Rest Newsgroups:
misc.health.alternative Date: 2001-09-21 18:45:53 PST

From: Ilsa Nein ([email hidden]) Subject: Re: Zapper Hucksters Get Zapped Newsgroups:
misc.health.alternative Date: 2001-12-31 16:22:51 PST

Quoted message said:

People who make, sell, or use Hulda's products or follow her advice should go

straight to hell and burn for seven eternities.

From: Ilsa Nein ([email hidden]) Subject: Re: In My Humble Opinion Only Newsgroups:
misc.health.alternative Date: 2002-01-17 09:11:22 PST

Quoted message said:

That is such a self-serving piece of spam that I hope it sticks in your

throat, forcing Todd Gastaldo to perform an emergency epesiotomy on you.

Quoted message said:

Leave MHA. Stop spamming. Rot in Hell.

From: Ilsa Nein ([email hidden]) Subject: Re: In My Humble Opinion Only Newsgroups:
misc.health.alternative Date: 2002-01-18 12:06:51 PST

Quoted message said:

F*** you and the horse you rode off on....

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Uh, dumbass,

Deconstructing Atlas Ass clown.

it.

Quoted message said:

Cher,

it.

Douche bag

Steaming bag of feces.

Quoted message said:

an I shall continue to call you on it every = time you spit your venom into this venue.

--Rich

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"Rich Shewmaker" <[email hidden]> wrote in message = news:VrOdnZJYvuehYHGiRVn-
[email hidden]... To Jan:

Perhaps you do not understand exactly what is a lie.

From m-w.comhome.htmOpen ↗ :

Main Entry: 3lie Function: verb Inflected Form(s): lied; ly=B7ing /'lI-i[ng]/ Etymology: Middle
English, from Old English lEogan; akin to Old High = German liogan to lie, Old Church Slavonic
lugati Date: before 12th century intransitive senses
1 : to make an untrue statement with intent to deceive
2 : to create a false or misleading impression transitive senses : to bring about by telling lies
<lied his way out = of trouble>

Please note the word "intent" in the first definition. When Kruschev = said, "We will bury you!"
was he lying? NO! He was mistaken, and his = statement was untrue, but he believed it to be true
and he had no intent = to deceive. If you asked one of your day care children, "What's two and =
two?" and she replied, "Three," was she lying? Of course not. She was = mistaken, but was not
trying to deceive you. The intent is what makes = the lie, not the incorrectness of the statement.
So you cannot justify = calling everyone who makes an incorrect statement a liar.=20

To "prove the lie with their own words," as you like to say, you have = to prove two things...that
their words were incorrect, AND that they = were said with the intent to deceive. I have never
seen you successfully = do, or even attempt, either.

You throw the words "lie" and "liar" around wily-nily as if you have a = franchise on their
definition. You do not.=20

You are quite rude, Madam, an I shall continue to call you on it every = time you spit your venom
into this venue.

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Nice try, Rich, but you forgot who you are dealing with. For her to = understand this point, she
would need to understand the English language = better than she does. ------
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Type content=3D"text/html; = charset=3Diso-8859-1"> <META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1276"
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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20 style=3D"PADDING-
RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; = BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-
RIGHT: 0px">
<>"Rich Shewmaker" <<A=20 href=3D""][email hidden]">[email hidden]</A>> wrote
in = message <A=20
=
href=3D""]news:[email hidden]">news:VrOdnZJYvuehYHGiRV= n-
[email hidden]</A>...</DIV>
<><FONT size=3D2>To Jan:</FONT></DIV>
<><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<><FONT size=3D2>Perhaps you do not understand exactly what is a=20 lie.</FONT></DIV>
<><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<><FONT size=3D2>From <A=20
=
href=3D"m-w.comhome.htmOpen ↗">m-w.comhome.htmOpen ↗</A>&nbsp= ;:</FONT></DIV>
<><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman">Main Entry:=20
<B><SUP>3</SUP>lie</B><BR>Function: <I>verb</I><BR>Inflected Form(s):=20
<C>lied</B>; <B>ly=B7ing</B> </FONT><FONT=20 face=3D"Times New Roman">/</FONT><TT>'lI-
i[ng]</TT><FONT=20 face=3D"Times New Roman">/<BR>Etymology: Middle English, from Old =
English=20
<I>lEogan; </I>akin to Old High German <I>liogan </I>to lie, Old = Church=20 Slavonic
<I>lugati</I><BR>Date: before 12th century<BR><I>intransitive =

senses</I><BR><B>1</B> <B>:</B> to make an untrue statement with = intent to=20
deceive<BR><B>2</B> <B>:</B> to create a false or misleading=20 impression<BR><I>transitive
senses</I> <B>:</B> to bring about by = telling lies=20 <<I>lied </I>his way out of
trouble></FONT></DIV>
<II><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman"></FONT> </DIV>
<III><FONT size=3D2>Please note the word "intent" in the first = definition. When=20 Kruschev
said, "We will bury you!" was he lying? NO! He was mistaken, = and his=20 statement was
untrue, but he believed it to be true and he had no = intent to=20 deceive. If you asked one
of your day care children, "What's two and = two?" and=20 she replied, "Three," was she
lying? Of course not. She was mistaken, = but was=20 not trying to deceive you. The intent
is what makes the lie, not the=20 incorrectness of the statement. So you cannot justify
calling everyone = who=20 makes an incorrect statement a liar. </FONT></DIV>
<IV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<V><FONT size=3D2>To "prove the lie with their own words," as you = like to say,=20 you have to
prove two things...that their words were incorrect, AND = that they=20 were said with the
intent to deceive. I have never seen you = successfully do,=20 or even attempt,
either.</FONT></DIV>
<VI><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<VII><FONT size=3D2>You throw the words "lie" and "liar" around = wily-nily=20 as if you
have a franchise on their definition. You do not. = </FONT></DIV>
<VIII><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<IX><FONT size=3D2>You are quite rude, Madam, an I shall continue to = call you=20 on it every
time you spit your venom into this venue.</FONT></DIV>
<><HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<> </DIV>
<><FONT size=3D2><FONT size=3D3>Nice try, Rich, but you forgot who = you are=20 dealing with. For
her to understand this point, she would need to = understand the=20 English language better
than she does.</FONT> = </FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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