Leg Strength

whoawhoa said:

If you're legs are burned out at the end of a ride, it has nothing to do with strength. On the bike intervals will do wonders to fix that.

Yep, not a strength issue. Your legs are fatigued because they lack power and endurance, not strength. All the original advice still applies, but since more people are chiming in with advice to become 'stronger' riders we're just clarifying that that term is cycling jargon for 'more powerful.'

losse said:

Like I mentioned in my original post, I would like to have more strength at the end of my bike runs... Compared to running where I am burned out in my legs and in my cardio, at the end of a 20k bike, my cardio is fine but my legs are on fire. I'd like to ideally peak in my legs and cardio just like I do when I run... I don't know if this means that I have to hit the gym and weightlift or get more mileage under my belf at high or low cadence.

I've gotten great feedback though.. it seems I need a combo of all the options mentioned above.

More miles. Gym is pointless for endurance.

Spend the time on the road.

losse said:

Like I mentioned in my original post, I would like to have more strength at the end of my bike runs...

I give up. 🙄

I've got a chart that I think will help you figure out what Doc and Frenchie are getting at. If you've never seen one before it's a power/time curve. Everyone has one and while they are all shaped basically like this. How steeply the fall off is varies by person. Now, I must say that I generated my on my own, based on my training data (for long distance rides) and actually going out and seeing how fast I could hold a speed over a given time/distance (short distances/sprints). I took those numbers and plugged them in at kreuzotter.deespeed.htmOpen ↗ It's funny that the correlation numbers matched so closely. To have really accurate values, you really need a power meter (which I don't have).

Anyway, by looking at the graph, what you want is not more strength indicated by the maximum number one can hold for a very brief peroid, but more POWER at a given time say 30, 60 or 90 mins. Working on maximal strength will not really improve your power numbers at 30, 60 or 90 mins. Doing intervals and the other suggested techniques will.

Good luck,
Lonnie

EDIT: BTW, the time intervals in minutes are 0.2, 1, 6, 12, 30, 60, 90, 120 and 180. FWIW, my 1 min estimate might be low. I feel pretty confident about the other numbers (esp as the times get longer). Other rider details, I'm 140 and my bike weighs 21 lbs....

To put it as simply as possible, an 85kg rider (& bike) doing 20mph on the hoods is generating about 183W on a flat, windless road. At 90rpm, he's only pushing down on the pedal with about 66 lbs of force during his downstroke. That's not hard to do, any certainly doesn't require any gym work to accomplish.

Now, doing it 90 times per minute gets a little tiring after an hour or two, but that requires greater endurance/power (see Lonnie's curve above), not strength.

losse said:

Like I mentioned in my original post, I would like to have more strength at the end of my bike runs... Compared to running where I am burned out in my legs and in my cardio, at the end of a 20k bike, my cardio is fine but my legs are on fire. I'd like to ideally peak in my legs and cardio just like I do when I run... I don't know if this means that I have to hit the gym and weightlift or get more mileage under my belf at high or low cadence.

I've gotten great feedback though.. it seems I need a combo of all the options mentioned above.

Believe you're experiencing a common problem with runners who transition to cycling. When you're riding and your legs start to burn towards the end of a ride, it's got nothing to do with how much weight you can squat. It's because your muscles and bloodstream are loading up with lactic acid. You've got good overall cardio, but not the specifics needed to cycle at a high level.

Your legs are more developed for running than cycling, which obviously uses different muscle groups. You need to develop the cycling-specific muscle cells and cardio-vascular network to feed them; it's a lot different from what you use running.

All you need to do is to keep riding lots and lots of aerobic miles. If you've already got the big heart/lung motor, bet you'll start seeing the endurance on the bike improve dramatically. I've trained with a couple of new riders with a running background, and it's amazing how in just a few months they go from a 20 mile burnout case to kicking butt...particularly mine.

I've never fully gone along with that idea and I guess I'm a heretic 🙂
I'm aware the need for leg strength is minimal while on the flat but I find strength helps me climb more efficiently. The secret is not to develop excess strength that you may not need or where it may handicap you. By strength, though, I also mean muscle endurance thrown in.
But those folks who dismiss the need for some leg-strength should try pedaling up a steep hill on the big crank at a reasonable cadence. Myself, I've overtaken many far smaller riders who are stuck on the middle ring while I push a far bigger gear ratio. It isn't easy to do that and many riders may simply prefer to spin instead - which is a valid option too.
I doubt the average rider could push as big a gear uphill as I use these days and it works O.K. for me. 🙂

whoawhoa said:

If you're legs are burned out at the end of a ride, it has nothing to do with strength. On the bike intervals will do wonders to fix that.

Carrera said:

But those folks who dismiss the need for some leg-strength should try pedaling up a steep hill on the big crank at a reasonable cadence. Myself, I've overtaken many far smaller riders who are stuck on the middle ring while I push a far bigger gear ratio. It isn't easy to do that and many riders may simply prefer to spin instead - which is a valid option too.

85kg rider & bike, 6% grade, 80rpm cadence, 170mm cranks, 15.7mph = 447W

Force required to simply push down the pedal (70 degree effective pedal stroke) = 181 lbs.

Downward pedal force assisted by an upward pull over the last 45 degrees of the upstroke (115 degree effective pedal stroke) = 110 lbs.

When I'm climbing hard out of the saddle in a big gear, I know there is significant pull over the top from my back leg, so that's why I included the second number.

Of course, instead of crunching that big gear, you could spin at 95 rpm and the first number goes down to 152 lbs. The second number drops to 93 lbs at 95rpm. analyticcycling.comForcesPower Page.htmlOpen ↗

I can climb at 450+W in the saddle and I don't do any gym work, so none of those forces are beyond the bounds of human capability.

Carrera said:

But those folks who dismiss the need for some leg-strength should try pedaling up a steep hill on the big crank at a reasonable cadence.

simply, this means that you are producing more power up the hill in the big gear than if you were riding the same cadence in a smaller gear. this is related to aerobic power and has nothing to do with strength (assuming the hill is more than a few seconds long)

ric

frenchyge said:

85kg rider & bike, 6% grade, 80rpm cadence, 170mm cranks, 15.7mph = 447W

Force required to simply push down the pedal (70 degree effective pedal stroke) = 181 lbs.

Downward pedal force assisted by an upward pull over the last 45 degrees of the upstroke (115 degree effective pedal stroke) = 110 lbs.

When I'm climbing hard out of the saddle in a big gear, I know there is significant pull over the top from my back leg, so that's why I included the second number.

Of course, instead of crunching that big gear, you could spin at 95 rpm and the first number goes down to 152 lbs. The second number drops to 93 lbs at 95rpm. analyticcycling.comForcesPower Page.htmlOpen ↗

I can climb at 450+W in the saddle and I don't do any gym work, so none of those forces are beyond the bounds of human capability.

likewise i'm the same and have a mass of less than 70 kg. i'm as weak as they come. strength isn't important in ECP (assuming no disabilities and not talking about e.g., a frail old lady)

ric

Doctor Morbius said:

I give up. 🙄

You're fighting some deeply ingrained jargon.

frenchyge said:

85kg rider & bike, 6% grade, 80rpm cadence, 170mm cranks, 15.7mph = 447W

Force required to simply push down the pedal (70 degree effective pedal stroke) = 181 lbs.

Downward pedal force assisted by an upward pull over the last 45 degrees of the upstroke (115 degree effective pedal stroke) = 110 lbs.

When I'm climbing hard out of the saddle in a big gear, I know there is significant pull over the top from my back leg, so that's why I included the second number.

Of course, instead of crunching that big gear, you could spin at 95 rpm and the first number goes down to 152 lbs. The second number drops to 93 lbs at 95rpm. analyticcycling.comForcesPower Page.htmlOpen ↗

I can climb at 450+W in the saddle and I don't do any gym work, so none of those forces are beyond the bounds of human capability.

Is the 181 lbs between both legs or one? And how do you get the force from ac? Are you using kg m/s to get that?

whoawhoa said:

Is the 181 lbs between both legs or one? And how do you get the force from ac? Are you using kg m/s to get that?

I work it out a slightly different way using crank length, velocity, and power. the *average* force required to turn the pedals at 447 W and 80 revs/min on 170 mm cranks is ~314 N (32 kg), which equates to ~ 70.5 lb between both legs over the entire pedal cadence range (same as 181 - 110 lb = 71 lb).

Ric

ric_stern/RST said:

I work it out a slightly different way using crank length, velocity, and power. the *average* force required to turn the pedals at 447 W and 80 revs/min on 170 mm cranks is ~314 N (32 kg), which equates to ~ 70.5 lb between both legs over the entire pedal cadence range (same as 181 - 110 lb = 71 lb).

That will give you the force averaged over the entire 180-degree down stroke, but I'm not sure that a die-hard bodybuilder would accept that, so I used the Effective Force figure from Analyticcycling.com.

To Whoawhoa: *Each* leg. It comes from the Power, Given Speed tool. Near the bottom of the input screen you enter the Effective Pedaling Range. The default is 70 degrees. On the output screen you get Average Pedal Force, which reflects a full 180 degree pedal range, and Effective Pedal Force, which reflects the pedaling range that you input.

The units are Newtons (kg-m/s^2). Divide by 9.81 to get kg, then multiply by 2.2 to get pounds.

I've occasionally found myself climbing reasonably steep inclines while on the big chain ring and somewhere in between my cassette midway. I concede the point that anyone can churn the pedals around at this large gear ratio but I suspect they wouldn't be able to do it for very long. A big guy who smokes and carries a lot of bulk would probably risk heart attack. 🙂
Again, I'm not saying I can do these climbs in bigger gears due to strength as such in the pure sense of the word. It's just that my large quads and powerful lower back help me compete with these super fit, smaller climbers who may weight 3 stone lighter than I do. I really feel my back kick in when I go uphill.
My fitness has always been my weaker point but my ability to crunch these really big gears uphill helps me reach speeds up to 14 mph these days. Other guys opt to spin which is also effective but I find spinning doesn't give me the same edge. I've noticed my ability to shift these big gears on inclines has come very gradually. A year ago, no way could I use the big ring as much as I do today so maybe my technique has improved or pedal efficiency and power.
Of course, my way risks injury and you have to be careful not to over work the knee joints.
I'm feeling happy with my progress of late. I used to be a chronic, hopeless cyclist but those cold Winter rides are gradually bearing some fruit.

ric_stern/RST said:

simply, this means that you are producing more power up the hill in the big gear than if you were riding the same cadence in a smaller gear. this is related to aerobic power and has nothing to do with strength (assuming the hill is more than a few seconds long)

ric

Carrera said:

I've occasionally found myself climbing reasonably steep inclines while on the big chain ring and somewhere in between my cassette midway. I concede the point that anyone can churn the pedals around at this large gear ratio but I suspect they wouldn't be able to do it for very long. A big guy who smokes and carries a lot of bulk would probably risk heart attack. 🙂 .

I would agree with that, but it clearly shows that endurance is what is limiting them. Lonnie's power vs duration graph (above) will dictate how long they will be able to maintain the power needed to climb at a specific speed.

ric_stern/RST said:

I work it out a slightly different way using crank length, velocity, and power. the *average* force required to turn the pedals at 447 W and 80 revs/min on 170 mm cranks is ~314 N (32 kg), which equates to ~ 70.5 lb between both legs over the entire pedal cadence range (same as 181 - 110 lb = 71 lb).

Ric

I'm confused. Why would you subtract the two numbers? And 180 pounds of force seems like a lot. What am I missing here?

In the opposite sense, one thing I do feel sure of is that one of these World's strongest men dudes would do very badly on a climb. On the hill I practise on, I would give one of those guys just 2 - 3 minutes till he collapsed. This is due to the bulk a lot of those guys carry and the lack of endurance. A person who just has strength and nothing else will reach exhaustion on a bike very rapidly indeed.
Strength on its own is useless for cycling.

frenchyge said:

I would agree with that, but it clearly shows that endurance is what is limiting them. Lonnie's power vs duration graph (above) will dictate how long they will be able to maintain the power needed to climb at a specific speed.

Last training session I was reaching a point of near exhaustion coming into a shallow climb and my speed was around 11 mph. I was on the big chain ring but couldn't get my speed up above 11 mph as I was suffering so much. I made one huge effort and shifted to a bigger gear and then it got much easier. My speed went up to 13 mph and I felt better.

Did angelic music play and a heavenly light shine down on you at that moment, or was it just from the gear change? 😕

You should use that gear more often.... 😄