LEDs or not?

On Wed, 20 Oct 2004 15:53:50 GMT, Sniper8052 <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

it's a question as to whether or not they got through or not. I know
there was a consultation document in which the proposal was made that the
rules relating to LED and flashing lights was put forward and an
ammendement tabled but if this came into force or not I am, as yourself,
sure.

According to my ever-helpful (and therefore deselected) MP, the answer
to that is "no."

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at Washington University

On Wed, 20 Oct 2004 15:53:50 GMT someone who may be Sniper8052
<[email hidden]> wrote this:-

Quoted message said:

There was a statement that the lights must/should be BS6102 or
equivalant which as you also say would allow lights of similar standard
with EU or other testing systems as 'legal' within the UK.

They already are. I believe the relevant statute is the "Single
European Act". It is whichever one prevents market restrictions by
local laws.

Quoted message said:

The question is not so much the power output of the light as I understand
it but the flashing nature of the light which as far as I can ascertain
has not been repealed or ammended.

Of course "dynamo" lights flash in time with the speed of the bike.
To be fair if the bulb is based on a filament then the light will
not go out completely, but it will increase and decrease in light
output (though too fast for the eye to appreciate).

--
David Hansen, Edinburgh | PGP email preferred-key number F566DA0E
I will always explain revoked keys, unless the UK government
prevents me by using the RIP Act 2000.

On Wed, 20 Oct 2004 16:07:42 +0100 someone who may be "Colin
Davidson" <[email hidden]> wrote this:-

Quoted message said:

Is the Cateye EL200 up to British Standard?

Remember that there is part of the British Standard for reflectors
and one for lights. LED lights usually come with a reflector and the
BS markings may only refer to the reflector part.

From memory the /2 BS is for the reflector and the /3 for the light.
However, I may well be wrong about the numbers.

--
David Hansen, Edinburgh | PGP email preferred-key number F566DA0E
I will always explain revoked keys, unless the UK government
prevents me by using the RIP Act 2000.

MSeries said:

I stand corrected, thanks, its good news IHMO. I had heard something
different recently.

Actually he was right. The law refers to BS6102/2 at the moment and has
not been updated to include BS6102/3.

D.M. Procida said:

For urban riding, where the imperative is not so much to see the
already-lit road at night but to be as visible as possible to other road
users, is there any reason not to prefer LEDs over more traditional
lights?

No. The more expensive ones taking 4 x AA cells show up very well.
They are hopeless in unlit lanes though.

Zog The Undeniable said:

MSeries said:

I stand corrected, thanks, its good news IHMO. I had heard something
different recently.

Actually he was right. The law refers to BS6102/2 at the moment and has
not been updated to include BS6102/3.

I think /2 is reflectors and /3 is lights - the number isn't the
edition, it's the part (BSs control edition only by the year of
publication, which when specified is done as eg ":1985" as a suffix to
teh number and part).

regards, Ian SMith
--
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|o o|
|/ \|

Chris Jones said:

Quoted message said:

I think Martin's comments are based on the fact that the relevant
lighting regs used to refer to a specific revision of BS6102 which did
not allow for LEDs (long after the /current/ BS6102/3 did allow them.

That's very interesting: I didn't know that the standard and the law
were two such different things. Roll on harmonisation, I say.

They have to be, otherwise the BS drafting committee would be making
law when they do their stuff, and that's not part of their remit - we
want reliable, honest, upright people making the law, like, errm, MPs.

regards, Ian SMith
--
|\ /| no .sig
|o o|
|/ \|

David Hansen said:

Of course "dynamo" lights flash in time with the speed of the bike.
To be fair if the bulb is based on a filament then the light will
not go out completely, but it will increase and decrease in light
output (though too fast for the eye to appreciate).

Apparently with a SON you can see it pulsing in slow traffic. Hub
dynamos rotate at a very slow speed compared to bottles.

Colin Davidson said:

Is the Cateye EL200 up to British Standard?

No, it isn't. AFAIK only the EL300 is.

Ian Smith said:

I think /2 is reflectors and /3 is lights - the number isn't the
edition, it's the part (BSs control edition only by the year of
publication, which when specified is done as eg ":1985" as a suffix to
teh number and part).

From the BSI website:
BS 6102-1:1981 Cycles: Specification for safety requirements for bicycles
BS 6102-1:1992 Cycles: Specification for safety requirements for bicycles
BS 6102-2:1982 Cycles: Specification for photometric and physical requirements
of reflective devices
BS 6102-3:1986 Cycles: Specification for photometric and physical requirements
of lighting equipment
BS 6102-4:1991 Cycles: Glossary of terms
BS 6102-5:1998 Cycles: Specification for bicycle tyre designations and dimensions
BS 6102-6:1997 Cycles: Specification for bicycle rims
BS 6102-8:1990 Cycles: Specifications for screw threads used to assemble
freewheels on bicycle hubs.
BS 6102-9:1990 Cycles: Specification for screw threads used in bottom bracket
assemblies
BS 6102-10:1987 Cycles: Specification for screw threads used to assemble head
fittings on bicycle forks
BS 6102-11:1991 Cycles: Specification for assembly dimensions for stem and handlebar
bend
BS 6102-12:1991 Cycles: Specification for stem wedge angle
BS 6102-13:1991 Cycles: Specification for mating dimensions for splined hub and
sprocket
BS 6102-14:1991 Cycles: Specification for dimensions of bottom bracket axle and crank
assembly with square end fittings
BS 6102-15:1991 Cycles: Specification for dimensions of spoke nipples
BS 6102-16:1997 Cycles: Specification for replacement brake blocks

BSI want a total of £746.00 for the full set!

The regulations refer to both 6102/2 and 6102/3 as appropriate.
http://www.legislation.hmso.gov.uk/si/si1989/Uksi_19891796_en_1.htm

Mike

David Hansen said:

The Department for Roads held a "consultation" a year or two ago
about permitting flashing red lights on bikes. My fallible memory
tells me there were "laws" to this effect put through the
Westminster rogues gallery about six months ago.

Are flashing rear lights illegal, or do they merely fail to provide the
requisite lighting needed to make night-time cycling legal? I ask
because yesterday morning, it wasn't dark enough to need lights, but was
gloomy enough that I decided to turn on my rear light, just in case it
might make a difference. The steady light was barely visible, so I put
it into flashing mode, which was at least noticable. Was I breaking the
law?

--
Keith Willoughby http://flat222.org/keith/
"You have nothing to fear, but fear itself....and monsters."
- Richard Herring

David Hansen [email hidden] opined the following...

Quoted message said:

Of course "dynamo" lights flash in time with the speed of the bike.
To be fair if the bulb is based on a filament then the light will
not go out completely, but it will increase and decrease in light
output (though too fast for the eye to appreciate).

I find that there is a world of difference between various
manufacturer's concept of flashing. Some essentially strobe which draws
your attention to them without them being off for a prolonged period
which might prevent you from seeing them. Some flash so slowly that it
is entirely possible to not notice them if you look at the wrong time.

I currently have two (Probably illegal) LED lights on my bike. One of
which successfully illuminates the road ahead of me and one of which can
be seen quite clearly across the length of North Bridge. If I survive
the accident, the driver had better make damn sure that they can run
faster than me!

Jon

I think the old fashioned Ever Ready type back light with a 80mm (?)
dia lens is vastly superior to most LEDs. Looks bulky but doesn't
actually weigh that much more but with a very big light output and
wide spread. Have tested this empirically many times by cycling behind
a group on foggy dark evenings - the benefits then become very
visible.
Front LEDs are obviously a dead loss - just a faint glittering like
left-over christmas decorations - dangerous in my opinion.
Flashing back lights worst of all - now you see it, now you don't, and
not very bright.

cheers

Jacob

Mike Causer said:

From the BSI website:
BS 6102-1:1981 Cycles: Specification for safety requirements for bicycles
BS 6102-1:1992 Cycles: Specification for safety requirements for bicycles
BS 6102-2:1982 Cycles: Specification for photometric and physical requirements
of reflective devices
BS 6102-3:1986 Cycles: Specification for photometric and physical requirements
of lighting equipment

In that case I'm confused. It may be that the law refers to an erlier
version of BS6102/3 for lights. I thought the /3 suffix was a version
number, but it all seems to be in the year.

"Zog The Undeniable" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:4176a0d0.0@entanet...

Quoted message said:

David Hansen said:

Of course "dynamo" lights flash in time with the speed of the bike.
To be fair if the bulb is based on a filament then the light will
not go out completely, but it will increase and decrease in light
output (though too fast for the eye to appreciate).

Apparently with a SON you can see it pulsing in slow traffic. Hub
dynamos rotate at a very slow speed compared to bottles.

You can with my LED back lights on the SON. The shimano was even more lumpy.
The front doesn't seem to do much at that sort of speed - this may be
because there's a couple of volts dropped across the LEDs (wired in series
with the front). It's at pushing speed, not slow riding speed though.

cheers,
clive

jacob said:

I think the old fashioned Ever Ready type back light with a 80mm (?)
dia lens is vastly superior to most LEDs. Looks bulky but doesn't
actually weigh that much more

They weigh a LOT more, especially those models that took/take 2 x D cells
per lamp.

Quoted message said:

but with a very big light output and
wide spread. Have tested this empirically many times by cycling behind
a group on foggy dark evenings - the benefits then become very
visible.
Front LEDs are obviously a dead loss - just a faint glittering like
left-over christmas decorations - dangerous in my opinion.
Flashing back lights worst of all - now you see it, now you don't, and
not very bright.

Absolute rubbish. I can only think you haven't seen any of the best front
and rear LED lights that have been on the market for last few years, which
are very bright. There's a new wave of LED technology coming along as
well--brighter and more efficient than ever.

Ever Ready made some of the worst lights in the history of cycling, in terms
of durability and ease of use, and the light output was only decent while
the batteries were very fresh (they didn't stay fresh for long). Flashing
LEDs catch the attention of road users and make the batteries last ages.
The good models flash quickly so there is no question of not seeing them
because of the "off" moments.

It's true that some older and current cheaper LED lights are not up to
scratch (and that some users never change the batteries) but that's no
reason to damn the whole concept. For being seen by, Smart Polaris, Cateye
EL200 and Cateye AU100 products are excellent. Superior to any old
fashioned Every Ready lights: more visable, more reliable, more convenient,
more economical and lighter.

I think Ever Ready's are so poor that I haven't even eBayed an unused one I
have. I wouldn't give it away to my worst enemy. In fact I'll chuck it in
the bin this week, and I'll smash it first in case the dustman finds it!

~PB

D.M. Procida said:

Quoted message said:

For urban riding, where the imperative is not so much to see the
already-lit road at night but to be as visible as possible to other

road

Quoted message said:

users, is there any reason not to prefer LEDs over more traditional
lights?

From a motorists viewpoint get a light with a steady beam, not those poxy
xmas tree decoration types, and definately not a flashing led front lamp
alone. By all means combine a flashing lamp with a steady.
From a cyclists viewpoint I find I get a lot of respect from my 10w Cateye
unit, as I did from the 6w large diameter lens one I formerly used,
motorists waiting to exit side roads (eg) seem to be unsure of what you are
rather than assume you're a slow moving cyclist and will be more cautious,
unlike the way they behave if I only use a 1.2w Cateye lamp.

Pete

Simon Mason said:

All of my lights are now leds which I run with rechargeable NiMH cells.
Very reliable and highly visible.

Do you have access to a photographic light meter? Measure the light
output of an LED lamp with alkaline cells and then with NiMH. You may
be unpleasantly surprised.

OK, to save you the bother, my EL-200 is 1 EV dimmer on rechargeables
because of the lower voltage [1]. That's *half* as bright. They may
have a long runtime, but you really have to use throwaway batteries for
the design performance.

[1] the opposite is true for filament bulbs - rechargeables give a
brighter light because they can supply more current, despite their lower
voltage.

"Simon Mason" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

"Simon Mason" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I forgot to mention this new Cateye rear led which I shall be

getting soon

Quoted message said:

to see how it fares.

http://www.wiggle.co.uk/?ProductID=5360014478

looks pretty useful.

Might produce a similiar effect to my current rear setup of twin
Cateye LD600s mounted about a foot apart. Used with both on flashing
mode the impression is of a light chasing back and forwards. I
started using two after seeing another cyclist with a triple setup. It
was by far the best (most visible) rear light setup I've seen although
perhaps not legal.
Iain

Quoted message said:

Chris Jones wrote:

Quoted message said:

I think Martin's comments are based on the fact that the relevant
lighting regs used to refer to a specific revision of BS6102 which did
not allow for LEDs (long after the /current/ BS6102/3 did allow them.
I am not certain if this is still the case (I have a feeling it isn't
due to some sort of EU regs harmonisation). The point Martin was
making was that it is the certification that is important, not whether
your lamps meet the standard

best wishes
james

Thats what I heard. The law states a specific BS but BS conforming LED
lights don't conform to it, they conform to another BS which doesn't make
them legal, defence lawyers love this sort of thing. I also heard the
situation was going to change but there was some ambiguity or vagueness that
mean't no one was really sure.