Latest Velonews and Stretching



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Chris

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Anybody read this and wonder where Wenzel came up with the unsubstantiated claims made for
stretching? Rings lactate out of the muscle? Only 30-120 sec stretches improve flexibility? This all
highlights why I ended my subscription years ago, but really, they need to read some of this stuff
before they print it.

CH
 
>From: [email protected] (chris)

>Only 30-120 sec stretches improve flexibility? This all highlights why I ended my subscription
>years ago, but really, they need to read some of this stuff before they print it.
>
>CH
>
>
I know it takes at least 30 seconds before I feel my large muscle groups relax into the stretch.
For a while ballisitic stretching was the rage, As I remeber this was thoroughly disproven as the
studies showed that the muscle's first reaction to the stress was to tighten and it took time to
allow it to relax. There's a lot of bad advice out there, don't take one opinion as gospel. Bill C
 
In article <[email protected]>, chris
<[email protected]> wrote:

> Anybody read this and wonder where Wenzel came up with the unsubstantiated claims made for
> stretching? Rings lactate out of the muscle?

If you sprint all-out to your doorstep the lactic acid will be gone from your muscles within 75
minutes. If you do 15 minutes of active recovery (easy riding) after that last sprint (or any other
effort) it will be gone by the time you get home.

-WG
 
chris wrote:
> Anybody read this and wonder where Wenzel came up with the unsubstantiated claims made for
> stretching? Rings lactate out of the muscle? Only 30-120 sec stretches improve flexibility? This
> all highlights why I ended my subscription years ago, but really, they need to read some of this
> stuff before they print it.
>
> CH

I've read in two different places ("Speed on Skates" and my AFAA fitness certification manual) that
20 seconds is the minimum one should hold a static stretch. Stretching should also be repeated two
more times.

The "Speed on Skates" section on stretching was very educational (and well referenced). It described
different stretching techniques beyond the basic/easy static type.

It's been a while since I read either source, but the 20-second minimum is standard AFAIK.

--
--
Lynn Wallace http://www.xmission.com/~lawall "I'm not proud. We really haven't done everything we
could to protect our customers. Our products just aren't engineered for security." --Microsoft VP in
charge of Windows OS Development, Brian Valentine.
 
> If you sprint all-out to your doorstep the lactic acid will be gone from your muscles within 75
> minutes. If you do 15 minutes of active recovery (easy riding) after that last sprint (or any
> other effort) it will be gone by the time you get home.

Really dumb question, but... what are the dangers of having that lactic acid hanging around your
muscles for 75 minutes after your workout? Obviously you won't be feeling as good, but does it
affect your recovery for the next-day's ride, or just how you'll feel immediately after the workout?

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles http://www.ChainReactionBicycles.com
 
warren wrote:

> In article <[email protected]>, chris
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>>Anybody read this and wonder where Wenzel came up with the unsubstantiated claims made for
>>stretching? Rings lactate out of the muscle?
>
>
> If you sprint all-out to your doorstep the lactic acid will be gone from your muscles within 75
> minutes. If you do 15 minutes of active recovery (easy riding) after that last sprint (or any
> other effort) it will be gone by the time you get home.
>
> -WG

Typically the latter I refer to as warmdown. Spin and keep as aerobic as possible last couple miles.
Helps to, to get heartrate down and cool off a bit, so I'm not sweating buckets the minute I step
into the house.
 
Raptor wrote:

> chris wrote:
>
>> Anybody read this and wonder where Wenzel came up with the unsubstantiated claims made for
>> stretching? Rings lactate out of the muscle? Only 30-120 sec stretches improve flexibility? This
>> all highlights why I ended my subscription years ago, but really, they need to read some of this
>> stuff before they print it.
>>
>> CH
>
>
> I've read in two different places ("Speed on Skates" and my AFAA fitness certification manual)
> that 20 seconds is the minimum one should hold a static stretch. Stretching should also be
> repeated two more times.
>
> The "Speed on Skates" section on stretching was very educational (and well referenced). It
> described different stretching techniques beyond the basic/easy static type.
>
> It's been a while since I read either source, but the 20-second minimum is standard AFAIK.
>

I had major flexibility problems before a doctor brought it to my attention, years ago. I have
hypertension from time to time and need some exercise and stretching to combat it. If I sit still
long enough my legs will begin to ache. Stretching, while warmed up is best. While cold is bad, but
can provide some temporary relief for a cramp. I usually have to hold a stretch for about 90 sec.
(I've been doing it for years) before the muscle relaxes.

Typical stretching I do:

Calves, 90 seconds or until angle is achieved without any pain. (The wall push, effectively, but I
do a very deep stretch because I needed that much for skiing.)

Hamstring, 90 seconds or until I can put forehead to knee easily. (Foot resting on top of tailgate
of my Pickup, about 4.5 feet up.)

Quads, 90 seconds or until quads and abs are relaxed. (I do this balanced on other leg, pulling ing
foot to about belt height and bowing slightly.)

Occasionally, if lower back muscles feel tight, usually after cold weather ride, I spred feet about
3 ft apart (i'm 6'2") and effectly bow, hanging arms to touch ground.

Stretching works best when focusing on relaxing the muscle groups rather than trying to just stretch
them by force.
 
Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:

>>If you sprint all-out to your doorstep the lactic acid will be gone from your muscles within 75
>>minutes. If you do 15 minutes of active recovery (easy riding) after that last sprint (or any
>>other effort) it will be gone by the time you get home.
>
>
> Really dumb question, but... what are the dangers of having that lactic acid hanging around your
> muscles for 75 minutes after your workout? Obviously you won't be feeling as good, but does it
> affect your recovery for the next-day's ride, or just how you'll feel immediately after the
> workout?
>
> --Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles http://www.ChainReactionBicycles.com
>
>

I find the warmdown makes me feel more energetic later, same day. If I sprint home I'll tend to feel
wiped out after a shower and want to take a nap. Never thought about how it would affect a ride the
next day, though second ride last weekend was after a long ride with sustained climbing and a sprint
homeward. I did take it easy the last mile, to cool down a bit. Next day ride was strong.
 
"Mike Jacoubowsky" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> > If you sprint all-out to your doorstep the lactic acid will be gone from your muscles within 75
> > minutes. If you do 15 minutes of active recovery (easy riding) after that last sprint (or any
> > other effort) it will be gone by the time you get home.
>
> Really dumb question, but... what are the dangers of having that lactic
acid
> hanging around your muscles for 75 minutes after your workout? Obviously you won't be feeling as
> good, but does it affect your recovery for the next-day's ride, or just how you'll feel
> immediately after the workout?

In theory it might actually even aid recovery, since lactate can be resynthesized into muscle
glycogen (at least to a limited degree). A pursuiter racing multiple rounds, for example, might
benefit from minimizing their warm-down following the first effort, to avoid oxidizing too much
precious carbohydrate. Of course, there are numerous factors that determine how you feel/perform
during subsequent exercise, that might mitigate against such a strategy...but I mention it to help
counter the image of "evil lactic acid" (actually, lactate).

Andy Coggan
 
In article <[email protected]>, Andy Coggan
<[email protected]> wrote:

> "Mike Jacoubowsky" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > > If you sprint all-out to your doorstep the lactic acid will be gone from your muscles within
> > > 75 minutes. If you do 15 minutes of active recovery (easy riding) after that last sprint (or
> > > any other effort) it will be gone by the time you get home.
> >
> > Really dumb question, but... what are the dangers of having that lactic
> acid
> > hanging around your muscles for 75 minutes after your workout? Obviously you won't be feeling as
> > good, but does it affect your recovery for the next-day's ride, or just how you'll feel
> > immediately after the workout?
>
> In theory it might actually even aid recovery, since lactate can be resynthesized into muscle
> glycogen (at least to a limited degree). A pursuiter racing multiple rounds, for example, might
> benefit from minimizing their warm-down following the first effort, to avoid oxidizing too much
> precious carbohydrate. Of course, there are numerous factors that determine how you feel/perform
> during subsequent exercise, that might mitigate against such a strategy...but I mention it to help
> counter the image of "evil lactic acid" (actually, lactate).

So how often are sprinters and pursuiters not doing 10 minutes or so of cool-down riding
after a round?

Just to add to the above... There are alot of other things you'd like to flush out of your muscles
after a ride to help speed your recovery before the next day's ride-lactate being only one of them,
so the cool-down and/or massage is important.

-WG
 
"warren" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> > > > If you sprint all-out to your doorstep the lactic acid will be gone from your muscles within
> > > > 75 minutes. If you do 15 minutes of active recovery (easy riding) after that last sprint (or
> > > > any other effort) it will be gone by the time you get home.
> > >
> > > Really dumb question, but... what are the dangers of having that lactic
> > acid
> > > hanging around your muscles for 75 minutes after your workout? Obviously you won't be feeling
> > > as good, but does it affect your recovery for the next-day's ride, or just how you'll feel
> > > immediately after the workout?
> >
> > In theory it might actually even aid recovery, since lactate can be resynthesized into muscle
> > glycogen (at least to a limited degree). A pursuiter racing multiple rounds, for example, might
> > benefit from minimizing their warm-down following the first effort, to avoid oxidizing too much
> > precious carbohydrate. Of course, there are numerous factors that determine how you feel/perform
> > during subsequent exercise, that might mitigate against such a strategy...but I mention it to
> > help counter the image of "evil lactic acid" (actually, lactate).
>
> So how often are sprinters and pursuiters not doing 10 minutes or so of cool-down riding after
> a round?
>

During training. At least for pursuiters, if you spent 10 minutes cooling down after every training
effort, you'd almost be back on the bike for the next effort. Most of the time, if you are doing
race speed efforts (or even super-race speed) you just want to get off the bike and SIT or LAY DOWN.

The first year the Feds had a sports scientist dedicated to the endurance track team, he did a very
quick check of each team pursuit rider's post training effort lactate level. At that point, there
was not a recommended way to handle the time interval between efforts. All the riders rolled around
the track for a few laps before pulling into the infield, then generally either stretched, drank
some water or Powerade, and sat and talked and coughed (dry air = pursuiter hack) until it was time
for the next effort and we'd roll up to the rail to begin the effort.

I don't know how I came about doing this, but after each effort, I'd roll for a couple of laps, then
slow down to a rolling start speed and do a moderate effort start for about 3/4 lap, take another
lap, then do the same for about 1/2 lap at a lesser effort, then finally a mild effort about the
length of the straight.

The sports sci guy measured our lactate levels, and I had the lowest readings after my little
'cool-down', which took about 2-2 1/2 minutes.
 
Again, lactate is portrayed as the evil limiter to performance and that's just not the case. To say
that it "...will be gone from the muscle..." is incorrect. Lactate is never gone, because its
produced continuously (even as I'm typing). Lactate's effect on the body is a dependent on its rate
of production and removal combined. Therefore, there isn't really any danger. The idea that it's
"acid" conjured up images that its burning the muscles, but we're never reaching pH levels low
enough to do much of anything and are certainly not out of the narrow biological window.

The point of my post was really related to many of the unsubstantiated claims made in regards to
stretching. While I am a strong proponent of stretching and improved flexibility, I never overstate
it's true value. Stating that it rings lactate out of the muscle, or even that lactate is damaging
your system is nonsense and bad coaching/advice.

Stating that it reduces injury rates is poor research, as the data suggests it may actually increase
rates of injury among certain athletic groups, but I've seen nothing in the literature to showing a
decrease in injuries. To state that you must stretch more than 30 seconds and as much as 2 minutes
is also nonsense. I've stretched for years using the old advice of 15 seconds and I'm as flexible as
they come.

Having said all this, what good is stretching? We all ose flexibility as we age, which can lead to a
number of problems performing both life activities (everyday tasks) and performance related
activities (like cycling). Flexibility is key for Time trialing, as well. I also feel an immense
recovery benefit from stretching, likely do to the fact that after 80 miles of hard racing and
generating a lot of muscle tension, muscles are tight (ie, they're not returning to the usual
resting length), so stretching helps elongate and relax them. I don't thing lactate or other waste
products really come into play with stretching.

Chris Harnish

warren <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<070920030906506098%[email protected]>...
> In article <[email protected]>, Andy Coggan
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > "Mike Jacoubowsky" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> > > > If you sprint all-out to your doorstep the lactic acid will be gone from your muscles within
> > > > 75 minutes. If you do 15 minutes of active recovery (easy riding) after that last sprint (or
> > > > any other effort) it will be gone by the time you get home.
> > >
> > > Really dumb question, but... what are the dangers of having that lactic
> acid
> > > hanging around your muscles for 75 minutes after your workout? Obviously you won't be feeling
> > > as good, but does it affect your recovery for the next-day's ride, or just how you'll feel
> > > immediately after the workout?
> >
> > In theory it might actually even aid recovery, since lactate can be resynthesized into muscle
> > glycogen (at least to a limited degree). A pursuiter racing multiple rounds, for example, might
> > benefit from minimizing their warm-down following the first effort, to avoid oxidizing too much
> > precious carbohydrate. Of course, there are numerous factors that determine how you feel/perform
> > during subsequent exercise, that might mitigate against such a strategy...but I mention it to
> > help counter the image of "evil lactic acid" (actually, lactate).
>
> So how often are sprinters and pursuiters not doing 10 minutes or so of cool-down riding after
> a round?
>
> Just to add to the above... There are alot of other things you'd like to flush out of your muscles
> after a ride to help speed your recovery before the next day's ride-lactate being only one of
> them, so the cool-down and/or massage is important.
>
> -WG
 
In article <[email protected]>, chris
<[email protected]> wrote:

> > > > Warren wrote: If you sprint all-out to your doorstep the lactic acid will be gone from your
> > > > muscles within 75 minutes. If you do 15 minutes of active recovery (easy riding) after that
> > > > last sprint (or any other effort) it will be gone by the time you get home.

> To say that it "...will be gone from the muscle..." is incorrect. Lactate is never gone, because
> its produced continuously (even as I'm typing).

That's nitpicking. How about not "gone" but "returns to normal resting levels"...? I got this
information years ago from a Tudor Bompa book.

-WG
 
I can tell you that our knowledge of lactate has increased dramatically since Bompa published his
book. No offense, but you really need to read some of the more recent literature.

My point before was that lactate is villified, but in reality it is simply one more substrate used
in energy metabolism/producting. To say that it is bad, or good, is too simplistic, and its removal
via stretching (assuming it happened) is irrelevent.

Chris

warren <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<080920030929593104%[email protected]>...
> In article <[email protected]>, chris
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > > > Warren wrote: If you sprint all-out to your doorstep the lactic acid will be gone from
> > > > > your muscles within 75 minutes. If you do 15 minutes of active recovery (easy riding)
> > > > > after that last sprint (or any other effort) it will be gone by the time you get home.
>
> > To say that it "...will be gone from the muscle..." is incorrect. Lactate is never gone, because
> > its produced continuously (even as I'm typing).
>
> That's nitpicking. How about not "gone" but "returns to normal resting levels"...? I got this
> information years ago from a Tudor Bompa book.
>
> -WG
 
In article <[email protected]>, chris
<[email protected]> wrote:

> I can tell you that our knowledge of lactate has increased dramatically since Bompa published his
> book. No offense, but you really need to read some of the more recent literature.

I do, but too many people seem to think lactate hangs around and causes DOMS and other issues when
in fact it's reduced to near resting levels in a very short time, right?. What does the recent
literature say about how fast lactate is removed from muscle?

I also understand that there are many other reasons to do a cool-down at the end of a ride and why a
person would want to remove other waste products from their muscles to reduce recovery time. Doing
this with stretching seems like a stretch.

-WG
 
It seems that when unaccustomed to fixed gear riding, a rider fails to sufficiently relax opposing
muscle groups (I've noted that the hamstrings are very susceptable) sufficiently, which would
account for increased soreness.

> I raced on the track a couple of times in 2001. My legs were very sore after the first weekend,
> probably not only the result of back-pedaling furiously on a couple of occasions, but also simply
> because I wasn't used to spinning as fast as I had to. There's no question in my mind that this
> was classic DOMS, not only due to cause, but also due to the timing (peaking 1-2 d) post and also
> due to the fact that I couldn't generate my normal powers for a few days (i.e., muscle function
> was impaired). I didn't have any such problems after racing again a couple of weeks later...which
> is also a classic characteristic of DOMS, i.e., the muscle damage created by an initial exercise
> session provides a long-lasting protective effect.

I agree. The point I was trying to make, was that it is a common misconception that lactic acid (the
emphasis on acid) causes muscle damage and soreness, and there simply isn't evidence to support
that. Nor is is clear whether oxidative stress affects DOMS related muscle inflammation. Moreover,
its yet to be proven whether antioxidants (eg, Vit C/E) influence DOMS related muscle damage.
Clearly, stretching doesn't seem effective at reducing the soreness.

> That said, there are plenty of other causes of muscle pain/soreness following cycling that aren't
> due to excessively high forces (e.g., do a ride hard enough to significantly lower your muscle
> glycogen stores, then try not eating for a few hours)...so to use a blanket term like DOMS could
> be confusing, as "crank yanker" says.

Sounds like the use of anaerobic metabolism...the term anaerobic is so entrenched in the field no
one will ever remove it. However, the idea of lengthening contraction can be very confusing - some
of the football players in my classes could never grasp the idea of contract & lengthen.

> BTW/FWIW: there are some very well known exercise/muscle physiologists who take strong exception
> to use of the word "eccentric" to decribe a lengthening contraction ("contraction" being
> understood to mean muscle activation). I think they are tilting at windmills, however, i.e., the
> term has been around so long that it is unlikely to disappear.

Chris Harnish
 
> That said, there are plenty of other causes of muscle pain/soreness following cycling that aren't
> due to excessively high forces (e.g., do a ride hard enough to significantly lower your muscle
> glycogen stores, then try not eating for a few hours)...so to use a blanket term like DOMS could
> be confusing, as "crank yanker" says.

Dr. Coggan, Any ideas what caused this? I did a 40K TT on a pancake flat course, with limited
adaptation to the TT position. Very motivated, pushed really hard the whole time.
Instantaneously upon crossing the line and slowing my cadence my legs became immensely painful.
Similar to that sensation when you've sprinted up a long hill at a really hard max effort.
However, it didn't go away on the ride back to the car (2 or 3 miles) and persisted for hours. I
mean really painful to the touch (it hurt to sit), and almost like a cramping sensation (but not
really and I never cramped) when I'd contract to move. Stretching was painful and didn't relieve
it. I seem to remember getting the impression Boardman was experiencing something similar after
his hour attempt. Anyway, it slowly went away over the next few hours as I drove home and was
gone by the end of the day replaced by the normal post-race leg sensations.

Wayne
 
Wayne, A few years ago, I was racing in GA and rode the last 15 miles of a 105 mile RR solo while
suffering from severe leg cramps. I managed to turn a light gear fast and not totally cramp, but
upon cross the line just about every major muscle group cramped leaving me lying in a 1/2 fetal
position. Based on what you say, it sounds like muscle spasms caused by the cessation of activity;
I'm assuming you stopped pedalling when you crossed the line. It is possible to "strain" a muscle
through repeated, high force movements. The fact that it got better over time and left you with
soreness supports this. I know my legs recovered better than most cramping episodes I've had, but
the first 1/2 hour was hell.

I have never had a similar experience since adopting my tonic water strategy a few days out.

Chris Harnish

[email protected] (Wayne) wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> > That said, there are plenty of other causes of muscle pain/soreness following cycling that
> > aren't due to excessively high forces (e.g., do a ride hard enough to significantly lower your
> > muscle glycogen stores, then try not eating for a few hours)...so to use a blanket term like
> > DOMS could be confusing, as "crank yanker" says.
>
> Dr. Coggan, Any ideas what caused this? I did a 40K TT on a pancake flat course, with limited
> adaptation to the TT position. Very motivated, pushed really hard the whole time.
> Instantaneously upon crossing the line and slowing my cadence my legs became immensely
> painful. Similar to that sensation when you've sprinted up a long hill at a really hard max
> effort. However, it didn't go away on the ride back to the car (2 or 3 miles) and persisted
> for hours. I mean really painful to the touch (it hurt to sit), and almost like a cramping
> sensation (but not really and I never cramped) when I'd contract to move. Stretching was
> painful and didn't relieve it. I seem to remember getting the impression Boardman was
> experiencing something similar after his hour attempt. Anyway, it slowly went away over the
> next few hours as I drove home and was gone by the end of the day replaced by the normal
> post-race leg sensations.
>
> Wayne
 
>Based on what you say, it sounds like muscle spasms caused by the cessation of activity; I'm
>assuming you stopped pedalling when you crossed the line. It is possible to "strain" a muscle
>through repeated, high force movements. The fact that it got better over time and left you with
>soreness supports this. I know my legs recovered better than most cramping episodes I've had, but
>the first 1/2 hour was hell.
>
> I have never had a similar experience since adopting my tonic water strategy a few days out.
>
> Chris Harnish

No, it wasn't spasms or cramps because it hurt with touch or to voluntarily contract them but there
was never a cramp (believe me I've had cramps and this wasn't them). Actually I wasn't anymore sore
by the end of the day or the next day, etc. then following any hard race, so again, I doubt it was a
strain of anykind. This was the only time it's ever happened.

Wayne
 
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