Lane question

gds said:

Wayne Pein said:

Yes, I think using a mirror for the purpose of facilitating left turns
is reasonable.

I have no comment on the value of a mirror-having never used one. But I
do a fair amount of route planning to avoid left runs in congested
areas. I rode for many years without considering this but after
realizing that most of the high stress and high danger moments on my
rides involved left turns I set out to minimize them. As I also prefer
loop rides to out and backs it merely means that I usually ride
clockwise.

Those sorts of options are luxuries not often available to commuters.
Also, being comfortable and competent at left turns is a survival
skill.

RichC

Wayne Pein said:

gds said:

Wayne Pein said:

We need more bicyclists asserting their rights, not less. We already
have virtually an entire population ignorant of its rights, and passive
to the point of detriment.

But I think cyclists need to understand when it is safe- or not- to
assert those rights. Whether right or wrong it is not fun to be
involved in a bicycle vs. motor vehicle crash.

I cannot think of a situation where it is unsafe for bicyclists to
assert their rights.

Well there are a few. Driver misjudges your speed; fails to yield to you;
passes you on the right, and other encroachments.

There is a tendency to doggedly try and assert one's rights that has to be
overcome. I had an incident in a parking lot where the other driver had
come around a corner too wide and was in my lane as I approached. The
sensible thing was to pass him on the wrong side, which was wide open.
Fortunately there were some vacant parking spaces I was able to veer into
avoiding a head-on. It's kind of in line with the idea of looking for the
gap, not at the obstacle.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

In 50+ years of riding, mostly in high traffic areas, I have found
numerous times in which motorists acted in violation of my rights.
Luckily, I never "stood my ground" to the point of getting hit the
motorist. Being right and dead holds little interest for me.

If someone is threatening to use their vehicle as a weapon, then yes, it
makes sense to evade.

Usually it's more subtle than that, in the nature of a misjudgement of the
cyclist's speed, trying to teach you a 'lesson', failing to exercise due
caution. Like I said above, it's often difficult to override the urge to
ride assertively and correctly when the best path might be to ride
evasively, hopping up on a curb, into a parking space, go the wrong way
'round.

jj

Quoted message said:

Wayne

rdclark said:

Those sorts of options are luxuries not often available to commuters.
Also, being comfortable and competent at left turns is a survival
skill.

Agreed that if you have a specific place to go you may be "forced" into
left turns. Also agreed that being able to ride in traffic, including
left turning, is a necessary skill.

All that said,you may surprised how much more pleasant riding with few
left turns is as well as how few places canot be easily reached with a
mnimal amount of left turns.

Don't take my comments to the extreme. I understand that left turns are
necessary and one needs to know how to handle them, especially in
traffic. I'm just saying that for much of my recreational riding I
manage to minimize left turns.

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

rdclark said:

Those sorts of options are luxuries not often available to commuters.
Also, being comfortable and competent at left turns is a survival
skill.

Agreed that if you have a specific place to go you may be "forced" into
left turns. Also agreed that being able to ride in traffic, including
left turning, is a necessary skill.

All that said,you may surprised how much more pleasant riding with few
left turns is as well as how few places canot be easily reached with a
mnimal amount of left turns.

Don't take my comments to the extreme. I understand that left turns are
necessary and one needs to know how to handle them, especially in
traffic. I'm just saying that for much of my recreational riding I
manage to minimize left turns.

Agreed!

I make three right turns fairly often!

-Bob

Quoted message said:

jj said:

Quoted message said:

Wayne Pein wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I cannot think of a situation where it is unsafe for bicyclists to
assert their rights.

Well there are a few. Driver misjudges your speed; fails to yield to you;
passes you on the right, and other encroachments.

These have nothing to do with a bicyclist asserting his right to use the
road as other vehicle operators do. These are situations that the
bicyclist cannot accurately predict but can only ride assertively to
reduce the likelihood of occurence. If a motorist makes a mistake or a
purposeful bad maneuver, the bicyclist ought to have the knowledge,
skill, and planning to evade.

Wayne

gds said:

Wayne Pein said:

These have nothing to do with a bicyclist asserting his right to use the
road as other vehicle operators do. These are situations that the
bicyclist cannot accurately predict but can only ride assertively to
reduce the likelihood of occurence. If a motorist makes a mistake or a
purposeful bad maneuver, the bicyclist ought to have the knowledge,
skill, and planning to evade.

OK, I'm now guessing that our differences are more semantic than
functional.

Probably!

Wayne

Wayne Pein said:

C Wright said:

A bad idea! Continue to assert what you believe is your equal right
to the
road in this fashion and eventually one of the nut cases behind the wheel
out there is going to clip you. They will either pass too close on your
left or try to squeeze by on your right, specially if they are
planning on
making a right turn.
Chuck

We need more bicyclists asserting their rights, not less. We already
have virtually an entire population ignorant of its rights, and passive
to the point of detriment.

Yes, but if your state has laws requiring bicycles to ride on the
right-hand side of the right-hand lane (except when making left turns,
etc. etc.), then you are not, in fact, "asserting your rights" but
breaking the law.

"Wayne Pein" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Atlbike said:

I don't think you should be to the left of the center of the lane.
Dangerous situation. I've found that even if you do take the lane like
the American League of Bicyclists teach, there are still those
aggressive drivers that will buzz you because you caused them an
inconvenience. They do this by only getting into the left lane as far
as they need to, but still have part of their car in the right lane.
This happens to me alot on my commute to work in Atlanta, because
drivers are very frustrated during peak hours.
I found the best thing to do is always give yourself 3-4 feet of lane
to the right. There's no way someone can pass you to the right. Also,
if you don't have a good mirror you can use to see traffic behind you,
you have to get one. It's just suicide not riding with one.

Funny that many bicyclists, myself included, aren't dead from not
wearing a mirror. I used to have one, but I realized looking in it for
overtaking traffic made me paranoid and distracted my attention from
where it is needed: in front.

When you

Quoted message said:

encounter those people that want to buzz you, at least you have 3-4
feet of margin that you can use at the last second.

This is the mantra of some mirror evangelists, but it is simply not
true. They spend too much time looking in the mirror for the boogeyman
from behind, and performing unneccessary evasive maneuvers.

Wayne

Interesting...have you removed the mirrors in your car?

The same reasoning would seem to apply. In fact, given the lesser number of
"overtaking" situations in an automobile and the higher speeds involved,
your line of reasoning would suggest that mirrors are even less usefiul in a
car than on a bike.

FWIW, my Take-a-Look mirror provides the same benefits on the bike as the
rear view mirrors in my car...that is, "enhanced situational awareness". I
often use it to ride more assertively when necessary (e.g., moving left
slightly in the lane, if overtaking traffic is not moving left enough for
proper clearance). And I don't spend "too much time looking in the mirror",
any more than one does while driving a car - a simple glance every 10-15
seconds provides all the information I need.

GG

Quoted message said:

gds said:

Wayne Pein said:

It is the motorist who is trying to occupy the space of the bicyclist.
That is why assertive riding position 1) sends the message that the
bicyclist IS occupying the lane space and the motorist is induced to be
cautious, or 2) use of the full lane precludes the motorist from using
the bicyclist's space.

We all know that women will get the worst of an encounter with an angry
man. A small child will get the worst in a confrontation with a larger
older child. Someone with a bb gun will lose to an AK-47.

Bicyclists have in part created there own weak postition by being lepers
of the roads. This has trained motorists into thinking they are
superior. It's time to quit groveling on the edge of the road, quit
whining for bike lanes (except on freeways), and quit accepting
discriminatory laws.

I take back my earlier position that our differences are mostly
semantic.

While I understand your frustration with many situations I disagree
pretty strongly with your approach to a solution.
Inflammatory language won't solve the problem. I don't at all see the
reasoning behind your metaphors. Is one a leper for aviding a pyhhric
conflict?

Lepers of the road are those bicyclists, in fact the great majority of
bicyclists that I see, that ride right on the edge of the pavement or
even in the gutter pan. This is what I also characterize as groveling at
the side of the road.

And while not agreeing with the example I do believe that

Quoted message said:

groveling at the side of the road is better than laying dead in a ditch
by the side of the road.

Quoted message said:

I vote for reason. I suggest that cyclists need to always exercise
reason and caution and always recognize that in any conflict with car
they will lose.

I'm not talking about conflict. But you seem to keep bringing it up.
I've been talking about bicyclists right to lane space.

Quoted message said:

Your exmples above apply. Women are much better off evading an
encounter (if they can!) than fighting with someone bigger and
stronger. Small children should be aware of the dangers of physical
conflict with larger children. And someone with a bb gun had best avoid
the guy wiht the AK-47.

I've never espoused confrontation. It is you who characterizes
bicyclists as weaker and therefore we should constantly modify our
behavior. The roads are not the waterways where tonnage influences right
of way.

Quoted message said:

So think first, then act. Sometimes riding agressively works just fine.
Other times it is the worst possible act.

I've consistently said ride assertively, not aggressively.

Wayne

DrLith said:

Wayne Pein wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

We need more bicyclists asserting their rights, not less. We already
have virtually an entire population ignorant of its rights, and
passive to the point of detriment.

Yes, but if your state has laws requiring bicycles to ride on the
right-hand side of the right-hand lane (except when making left turns,
etc. etc.), then you are not, in fact, "asserting your rights" but
breaking the law.

My state NC does not. If your state does, bicyclists should work to
repeal it. It is discrimination and it is dangerous. Breaking the law
when the law is an ass is reasonable.

Wayne

GaryG said:

"Wayne Pein" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

This is the mantra of some mirror evangelists, but it is simply not
true. They spend too much time looking in the mirror for the boogeyman
from behind, and performing unneccessary evasive maneuvers.

Wayne

Interesting...have you removed the mirrors in your car?

Quoted message said:

The same reasoning would seem to apply. In fact, given the lesser number of
"overtaking" situations in an automobile and the higher speeds involved,
your line of reasoning would suggest that mirrors are even less usefiul in a
car than on a bike.

No. The mirror in my car is for facilitating lane changes and backing.
It is not for worring about motorists behind me.

Quoted message said:

FWIW, my Take-a-Look mirror provides the same benefits on the bike as the
rear view mirrors in my car...that is, "enhanced situational awareness". I
often use it to ride more assertively when necessary (e.g., moving left
slightly in the lane, if overtaking traffic is not moving left enough for
proper clearance). And I don't spend "too much time looking in the mirror",
any more than one does while driving a car - a simple glance every 10-15
seconds provides all the information I need.

GG

I always ride assertively, so there is no rationale for looking behind
me to increase my assertivity. If I am moving from a right side of the
lane position to a full lane position, I look behind and execute.

I don't discourage people from using mirrors. What I do take issue with
are those folks who say it is suicide to not use one, or it is great for
taking evasive action prior to getting run over.

Wayne

Wayne Pein said:

I always ride assertively, so there is no rationale for looking behind
me to increase my assertivity. If I am moving from a right side of the
lane position to a full lane position, I look behind and execute.

I don't discourage people from using mirrors. What I do take issue with
are those folks who say it is suicide to not use one, or it is great for
taking evasive action prior to getting run over.

Wayne

I can't take too much issue with your not wearing a mirror, but I am
astonished that you don't realize it's not typical.

Now granted Pro riders don't wear mirrors, so maybe you're just an
exceptional bike-handler...

Myself I use my mirror because, basically, I want to know at all times
what's going on behind me. Though I monitor what's going on around me
primarily by hearing, I have had cars 'appear' behind me, from side streets
and I don't catch them until they're almost up on me.

Why am I watching? Well for one thing, I try to position myself on the road
where I am safest. So if I'm coming up on an often used side street I'll
make sure I'm past that street so that a car can -not- right hook me.

If a car is coming up on me from the front, I'll always steal a quick
mirror check to make sure there's also not a car coming up behind me such
that they might be trying to overtake and pass unsafely. Additionally, if
they are already attempting to pass, I want to know if the guy in front of
me just about to pass me is seeing a car rapidly approaching in their lane.
Now usually a driver will make an emergency escape to their right, going
into a ditch, but if there's a slim chance he might go left to avoid a
head-on, I want to be aware of the possibility.

I related a person just last week approaching from behind and failing to
get over in broad daylight, me in bright colors. Though the chances that
you'll escape a rear ender by mirror checking are small, I don't just give
up. Call me hypervigilant - it's just a habit and it doesn't detract from
my riding.

jj

"Hell and High Water" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

When you're riding in the right lane of two, which side of that lane do
you ride on and why?

If there's no shoulder, I usually ride in equivalent of the right wheel
well. I'll adjust position in two circumstances:

o I've judged the situation to be one in which it would be appropriate for
motor vehicles to pass me while I'm in the lane. This decision may be made
based on the heaviness of traffic, the width of the vehicles behind, the
width of the street, lines of sight, my relative speed to the motor
vehicles. Under these circumstances, I'll indicate to the driver behind me
that I am ready to have him/her pass me. When I feel it is no longer
appropriate to be passed, if there's still traffic behind me, I'll indicate
that I am returning to my place in the lane. They will just have to be
behind me at 15 mph until I judge that it is safe for them to pass me,
again. I figure I get passed by dozens and dozens of cars every day, but
most cars rarely pass a bicycle. As a result, I am an expert at being
passed, and they are complete tyros and doofusi at passing me, so I am the
best equipped to decide what is mutually the best for both of us. I feel I
do not abuse my power.

o I am at a controlled intersection (stop sign or stop light). In many of
these cases, I will position myself in the left wheel well. This is because
a. I want to be very visible to the rest of the intersection, and block
people from attempted right hooks or other shenanigans. b. the painted X
indicating the signal trigger is often on the left c. at some intersections,
the main turning traffic is on the right, and I want to give motorists
behind me the option of taking their free right at the intersection without
them turning in front of me.

o If the street is a one-way street, I will often position myself in the far
left, "#1" lane (legal in our state on one-way streets), to avoid buses and
right turning traffic. If there are parked cars on the left-hand side,
and/or there is a lot of left-turning traffic, then I will ride in the right
wheel well of the #1 lane. This is my standard practice on 2nd Avenue
downtown.

--
Warm Regards,

Claire Petersky
Personal page: http://www.geocities.com/cpetersky/
See the books I've set free at:
http://bookcrossing.com/referral/Cpetersky

"jj" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Wayne Pein said:

I always ride assertively, so there is no rationale for looking behind
me to increase my assertivity. If I am moving from a right side of the
lane position to a full lane position, I look behind and execute.

I don't discourage people from using mirrors. What I do take issue with
are those folks who say it is suicide to not use one, or it is great for
taking evasive action prior to getting run over.

Wayne

I can't take too much issue with your not wearing a mirror, but I am
astonished that you don't realize it's not typical.

Now granted Pro riders don't wear mirrors, so maybe you're just an
exceptional bike-handler...

Myself I use my mirror because, basically, I want to know at all times
what's going on behind me. Though I monitor what's going on around me
primarily by hearing, I have had cars 'appear' behind me, from side

streets

Quoted message said:

and I don't catch them until they're almost up on me.

Yep...enhanced situational awareness. Many newer cars are very
quiet...combined with wind noise, it's often hard to hear them until they're
already passing you.

GG

Quoted message said:

Why am I watching? Well for one thing, I try to position myself on the

road

Quoted message said:

where I am safest. So if I'm coming up on an often used side street I'll
make sure I'm past that street so that a car can -not- right hook me.

If a car is coming up on me from the front, I'll always steal a quick
mirror check to make sure there's also not a car coming up behind me such
that they might be trying to overtake and pass unsafely. Additionally, if
they are already attempting to pass, I want to know if the guy in front of
me just about to pass me is seeing a car rapidly approaching in their

lane.

Quoted message said:

Now usually a driver will make an emergency escape to their right, going
into a ditch, but if there's a slim chance he might go left to avoid a
head-on, I want to be aware of the possibility.

If I see a car approaching from the front on one of the narrow, semi-rural
roads I normally ride on, I take a quick glance back in my mirror. If
there's a car approaching from behind, I move left a bit to take the lane,
ensuring I don't get "squeeze-played". If it looks like they're not getting
the message, I indicate with my left palm facing rearward that they should
not pass. Another instance in which the mirror allows me to safely assert
my rights. Could I twist around and look backwards every time a car
approaches from the front? Sure...but, why bother when the mirror makes it
so much easier?

GG

Quoted message said:

I related a person just last week approaching from behind and failing to
get over in broad daylight, me in bright colors. Though the chances that
you'll escape a rear ender by mirror checking are small, I don't just give
up. Call me hypervigilant - it's just a habit and it doesn't detract from
my riding.

jj

"Wayne Pein" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

GaryG said:

"Wayne Pein" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

This is the mantra of some mirror evangelists, but it is simply not
true. They spend too much time looking in the mirror for the boogeyman
from behind, and performing unneccessary evasive maneuvers.

Wayne

Interesting...have you removed the mirrors in your car?

Quoted message said:

The same reasoning would seem to apply. In fact, given the lesser

number of

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

"overtaking" situations in an automobile and the higher speeds involved,
your line of reasoning would suggest that mirrors are even less usefiul

in a

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

car than on a bike.

No. The mirror in my car is for facilitating lane changes and backing.
It is not for worring about motorists behind me.

Quoted message said:

FWIW, my Take-a-Look mirror provides the same benefits on the bike as

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

rear view mirrors in my car...that is, "enhanced situational awareness".

I

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

often use it to ride more assertively when necessary (e.g., moving left
slightly in the lane, if overtaking traffic is not moving left enough

for

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

proper clearance). And I don't spend "too much time looking in the

mirror",

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

any more than one does while driving a car - a simple glance every 10-15
seconds provides all the information I need.

GG

I always ride assertively, so there is no rationale for looking behind
me to increase my assertivity. If I am moving from a right side of the
lane position to a full lane position, I look behind and execute.

I don't discourage people from using mirrors. What I do take issue with
are those folks who say it is suicide to not use one, or it is great for
taking evasive action prior to getting run over.

Wayne

I agree that it's not suicide to not use one...plenty of cyclists have
ridden plenty of miles without them.

But, just as with automobile rear view mirrors, well-adjusted cycling
mirrors can enhance safety through increased situational awareness.

I like to know what's going on all around me while riding. With a mirror I
can monitor my backside without having to depend on my hearing (not always
reliable), or twisting around (and, thus, facing away from my direction of
travel).

GG

Quoted message said:

On Wed, 5 Oct 2005 19:59:50 -0700, "GaryG" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

If I see a car approaching from the front on one of the narrow, semi-rural
roads I normally ride on, I take a quick glance back in my mirror. If
there's a car approaching from behind, I move left a bit to take the lane,
ensuring I don't get "squeeze-played". If it looks like they're not getting
the message, I indicate with my left palm facing rearward that they should
not pass. Another instance in which the mirror allows me to safely assert
my rights. Could I twist around and look backwards every time a car
approaches from the front? Sure...but, why bother when the mirror makes it
so much easier?

GG

I remember (I think) wearing an eyeglass mirror back in the 80s when they
were just a little white plastic thing, tiny mirror, and some kind of
rubber friction clamp that never stayed on the eyeglass frame correctly.
Very annoying. Required nearly constant adjustment and reacquiring the
image each ride.

However today's eyeglass mirrors are so well put together and stable that
after the initial adjustment, I've never had to re-do mine. I can even
swing it out of the way and back when I take the glasses off to clean them.

Heh, i've actually developed a quick, rather nifty head-check movement
since the positioning is so reliable. Easy, no muss no fuss. What's not to
like.

My test of great equipment is when the mechanics are good enough that the
equipment nearly disappears, or becomes transparent to my ride. Helmets and
sunglasses and eyeglass mirrors and indeed, index shifted bikes and
clipless pedals are there. It's just a joy to ride. I hardly notice my bike
and on good days I don't even notice my breathing or my body. ;-D

jj

Wayne Pein said:

Lepers of the road are those bicyclists, in fact the great majority of
bicyclists that I see, that ride right on the edge of the pavement or
even in the gutter pan. This is what I also characterize as groveling at
the side of the road.

Perhaps it's "sharing the road".

Rich

"Wayne Pein" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

gds said:

Wayne Pein said:

It is the motorist who is trying to occupy the space of the bicyclist.
That is why assertive riding position 1) sends the message that the
bicyclist IS occupying the lane space and the motorist is induced to be
cautious, or 2) use of the full lane precludes the motorist from using
the bicyclist's space.

We all know that women will get the worst of an encounter with an angry
man. A small child will get the worst in a confrontation with a larger
older child. Someone with a bb gun will lose to an AK-47.

Bicyclists have in part created there own weak postition by being lepers
of the roads. This has trained motorists into thinking they are
superior. It's time to quit groveling on the edge of the road, quit
whining for bike lanes (except on freeways), and quit accepting
discriminatory laws.

I take back my earlier position that our differences are mostly
semantic.

While I understand your frustration with many situations I disagree
pretty strongly with your approach to a solution.
Inflammatory language won't solve the problem. I don't at all see the
reasoning behind your metaphors. Is one a leper for aviding a pyhhric
conflict?

Lepers of the road are those bicyclists, in fact the great majority of
bicyclists that I see, that ride right on the edge of the pavement or
even in the gutter pan. This is what I also characterize as groveling at
the side of the road.

"Lepers" and "groveling" might be a bit inflammatory, but you're exactly
right about those cyclists who ride right at the edge of the roadway...they
tend to get treated with much less respect by car drivers, they have many
more "close shave" encounters, and they have a lot more flat tires to
change.

GG

Quoted message said:

And while not agreeing with the example I do believe that

Quoted message said:

groveling at the side of the road is better than laying dead in a ditch
by the side of the road.

Quoted message said:

I vote for reason. I suggest that cyclists need to always exercise
reason and caution and always recognize that in any conflict with car
they will lose.

I'm not talking about conflict. But you seem to keep bringing it up.
I've been talking about bicyclists right to lane space.

Quoted message said:

Your exmples above apply. Women are much better off evading an
encounter (if they can!) than fighting with someone bigger and
stronger. Small children should be aware of the dangers of physical
conflict with larger children. And someone with a bb gun had best avoid
the guy wiht the AK-47.

I've never espoused confrontation. It is you who characterizes
bicyclists as weaker and therefore we should constantly modify our
behavior. The roads are not the waterways where tonnage influences right
of way.

Quoted message said:

So think first, then act. Sometimes riding agressively works just fine.
Other times it is the worst possible act.

I've consistently said ride assertively, not aggressively.

Wayne

On Thu, 6 Oct 2005 06:53:23 -0700, "GaryG" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Lepers of the road are those bicyclists, in fact the great majority of
bicyclists that I see, that ride right on the edge of the pavement or
even in the gutter pan. This is what I also characterize as groveling at
the side of the road.

"Lepers" and "groveling" might be a bit inflammatory, but you're exactly
right about those cyclists who ride right at the edge of the roadway...they
tend to get treated with much less respect by car drivers, they have many
more "close shave" encounters, and they have a lot more flat tires to
change.

GG

I wonder if the concept of 'taking the lane' is a more recent invention. I
still see quite a few older, long time riders riding the edge on some of
the back roads around here. Heh, it actually takes some skill to ride that
white line like they do.

jj

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Thanks to all for the responses!

-Bob