Koppenberg unclimable

"Bob Schwartz" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Michael Press said:

Davey Crockett <[email hidden]> wrote:

> http://www.eurosport.com/
> "They probably underestimated the climb and started it without being
> really
> motivated," said Walter Godefroot,
a master of understatement.

Godefroot's just so used to trash-talking Ullrich that he
says that about lack of motivation whenever anyone sticks
a microphone in front of him.

No, no, no. It's important to be super motivated. That's why
Laff and I are on the same page about George winning the
Tour. No one is more super motivated than George.

Bob Schwartz

Fixed it for you.

"No one is more thuper motivated than George."

I know I know. Be nice.

Kurgan Gringioni said:

Bret said:

Quoted message said:

Gotta give George credit, he's figured out that you can't just ride
with Boonen to the finish if you want to win the race. He must have
had that brilliant revelation after Boonen wiped the floor with him on
the Roubaix velodrome.

I doubt that Hincapie ever thought he was likely to win that sprint.
There are a number of different scenarios that could have lead up to
that moment. The most likely is that Hincapie thought (or DS thought)
there was more honor in losing at the line in Roubaix than being left
alone on the road. Not everyone would agree. I can see it both ways
being rather wishy-washy on most subjects.

Dumbass -

Disagree.

Last year was the first time that GH entered the velodrom in P-R with
the leading group, with a chance for victory. Hindsight being what it
is, he really had very little chance, but come on, if a bike racer
knows that he has zero chance of beating one of his breakaway mates in
a sprint, then there's only one course of action. Attack.

Given his recent comments, GH realizes this now. Last year he didn't
know. Boonen's supremacy had not yet been fully established
(counterexample: Hoste beating the sprinter Eisel in this years
Dreidaagse de Panne in the breakaway. We know now that Boonen is not
the type of sprinter who tires in the breakaway and is beatable. Last
year, we didn't yet know).

thanks,

K. Gringioni.

Who knew you could be such an idealist? I don't assume these guys will
always race for the win at all costs. This is most evident in the grand
tours where the high GC contenders ride defensively to protect their
positions rather than taking a long shot risk for the win.

Bret

In article <[email hidden]>,

John Forrest Tomlinson said:

Howard Kveck said:

You know, it'd be hard to imagine Hincapie doing what Boonen did last
week (when he told Ballan to "keep riding hard, because I'm going to beat
you in the sprint anyway."😉. Of course, Boonen can say that sort of thing
and back it up. Iwonder what Hincapie's DS that day was telling him on the
radio, if anything.

Something like "Watch him, watch for a mistake, the pressure's on him,
the pressure's on him. You're strong George, you're strong, you can
do it. You can do it."

I'm serious. What else can you say?

Yeah, that's probably pretty close to it. But I wonder if the DS actually
believed it, or if he figured it was done and kept up the good talk anyway. I'd
agree with what Henry said re: Boonen. "We know now that Boonen is not
the type of sprinter who tires in the breakaway and is beatable. Last
year, we didn't yet know." I'd say that P-R '05 was the race that cemented that
bit of info into the peloton's collective psyche.

Quoted message said:

JT

PS -- I was once in a 2-man break in a little race (Colby College
collegiate A-B in 86 or 87) and the other guy asked me how we were
going to play the finish and I said "I'm going to attack and win
alone." I guess I shouldn't have given away the tactics...but it was
a little race.

Oops...

--
tanx,
Howard

Grandma Smith said a curious thing
Boys must whistle, girls must sing

remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?

B. Lafferty said:

Work for Leif, Goerge. While everyone is focusing on Boonen the
sprinter,
they tend to forget how well he rides the bergs, as in Patersberg for
example. George will not win a monument, but he will win the Tour this
year. Then Charmichael will write a new training book, The Georgie Boy
Performance Program, sans the true preparation details. :-)

That might just be the answer Brian

Johann has quite a job ahead of him and given the undoubtable current
strength of Boonen it comes down to the old adage that if you can't ride
as fast as the opposition, you have to ride smarter, assuming that
Hincappie
is in fact the capo squadra on the day which actually may not be the case
with Barry riding number One.

But a possible scenario is to wait for 75 klicks or so into the race and
see how the individual riders are feeling.

Then send Barry up the road in a solo (or small group) attack and as soon
as he is brought back, send Goussev away and then Joachim when Goussev is
brought back.

That leaves Five reasonably strong riders who could try to lure Boonen into
a later break where hopefully they could eventually blow him out the back
leaving Devolder and Hoste to drive the train with Ekimov for the final
pilot
fish and Hammond as lead out man/alternative sprinter if required.

Now of course races seldom unfold as one would wish them to and some
adjustment
of the tactics will probably be necessary even without considering that
Devolder
or Hoste might be the protected rider. (Some of them are at least going to
want
a few scraps thrown in their direction if they are expected to baby George
in
the Tour)

In any case it will be interesting to see what transpires and I'm just
sorry I
won't be able to watch the event in real time.

--
Davey on the Road

Bestest Handsander said:

"Bob Schwartz" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Michael Press wrote:

> Davey Crockett <[email hidden]> wrote:
>
>
>>http://www.eurosport.com/
>>"They probably underestimated the climb and started it without being
>>really
>>motivated," said Walter Godefroot,
>
>a master of understatement.

Godefroot's just so used to trash-talking Ullrich that he
says that about lack of motivation whenever anyone sticks
a microphone in front of him.

No, no, no. It's important to be super motivated. That's why
Laff and I are on the same page about George winning the
Tour. No one is more super motivated than George.

Bob Schwartz

Fixed it for you.

"No one is more thuper motivated than George."

Gee, I don't understand. I probably wont understand the "thuper" thing
until someone posts a link to that bus picture for the 10,000th time.

Oh go ahead, indulge me.

John Forrest Tomlinson said:

PS -- I was once in a 2-man break in a little race (Colby College
collegiate A-B in 86 or 87) and the other guy asked me how we were
going to play the finish and I said "I'm going to attack and win
alone." I guess I shouldn't have given away the tactics...but it was
a little race.

Just so we're clear on how little the race was, are you talking about
Colby in Maine or Colby in New Hampshire? You drove all the way to
Waterville for a bike race?

I once rode in a three man break during a state chanpionship, with the
only guy in the race I had no hope of out sprinting (Hugh Walton) and
ended up a predictable 2nd. I knew I wasn't doing the right thing at
the time but did it anyway.

Bret

Bret said:

Just so we're clear on how little the race was, are you talking about
Colby in Maine or Colby in New Hampshire?

Colby College in Maine.

Quoted message said:

You drove all the way to
Waterville for a bike race?

Yeah, though that trip was from Boston.

But from here in NYC I once raced in Virginia on a Thursday and Maine
on the Sunday. That was a bit much.

JT

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Bestest Handsander said:

WooHoo! Finally some old-time action all the tech can't affect. Welcome to
the '60s boys!

Wonder how many will be using shoes with mountain bike soles?

Maybe Fast Freddie... who else rides pedals w/ cross compatibility?

If he wins 'cause he ran the fastest up the Koppenberg, he'll be a
frikkin genius for using road-beaters.

Fred

Bret said:

Quoted message said:

Dumbass -

Disagree.

Last year was the first time that GH entered the velodrom in P-R with
the leading group, with a chance for victory. Hindsight being what it
is, he really had very little chance, but come on, if a bike racer
knows that he has zero chance of beating one of his breakaway mates in
a sprint, then there's only one course of action. Attack.

Given his recent comments, GH realizes this now. Last year he didn't
know. Boonen's supremacy had not yet been fully established
(counterexample: Hoste beating the sprinter Eisel in this years
Dreidaagse de Panne in the breakaway. We know now that Boonen is not
the type of sprinter who tires in the breakaway and is beatable. Last
year, we didn't yet know).

thanks,

K. Gringioni.

Who knew you could be such an idealist? I don't assume these guys will
always race for the win at all costs. This is most evident in the grand
tours where the high GC contenders ride defensively to protect their
positions rather than taking a long shot risk for the win.

Dumbass -

Podium was assured in the last 10k. They had a minute's lead.

At that point, they're going for the win. There's nothing to lose.
Flecha and Hincapie just had the wrong tactics. If they were in the
same situation again, you can rest assured that they would trade
attacks on Boonen. At the very least, it would perhaps take something
out of his legs in the sprint relative to the others.

thanks,

K. Gringioni.

Kurgan Gringioni said:

At that point, they're going for the win. There's nothing to lose.
Flecha and Hincapie just had the wrong tactics. If they were in the
same situation again, you can rest assured that they would trade
attacks on Boonen. At the very least, it would perhaps take something
out of his legs in the sprint relative to the others.

dumbass,

have you watched any pros races? riders on different teams never
collaborate to take on the best sprinter in a break, because it means
for one to succeed the other has to fail. it just doesn't happen. pros
don't hand each other wins. that's why horner didn't pull through when
he was away in the tour last year.

rbr pundits theorized that telekom and once could alternate attacking
to take down armstrong, but it would never happen that way.

in pro races the competition is close enough that in order to win one
has to force the other guy to work. that's how pozzato won MSR and
that's how dekker wins races even when it seems he shouldn't have the
horsepower.

amit said:

Kurgan Gringioni said:

At that point, they're going for the win. There's nothing to lose.
Flecha and Hincapie just had the wrong tactics. If they were in the
same situation again, you can rest assured that they would trade
attacks on Boonen. At the very least, it would perhaps take something
out of his legs in the sprint relative to the others.

dumbass,

have you watched any pros races? riders on different teams never
collaborate to take on the best sprinter in a break, because it means
for one to succeed the other has to fail. it just doesn't happen. pros
don't hand each other wins. that's why horner didn't pull through when
he was away in the tour last year.

rbr pundits theorized that telekom and once could alternate attacking
to take down armstrong, but it would never happen that way.

in pro races the competition is close enough that in order to win one
has to force the other guy to work. that's how pozzato won MSR and
that's how dekker wins races even when it seems he shouldn't have the
horsepower.

It's funny, though, that just when you think you've figured out the
tactics based on the teams guys are on, new tactics sometimes get
introduced in the middle of the race based on country allegiances.
I mean, Savoldelli's Disco support wasn't particularly strong last
year, but he got some help from Italians on other teams, because he's
Italian.

~bob

Quoted message said:

Bestest Handsander said:

WooHoo! Finally some old-time action all the tech can't affect. Welcome to
the '60s boys!

Wonder how many will be using shoes with mountain bike soles?

Maybe Fast Freddie... who else rides pedals w/ cross compatibility?

If he wins 'cause he ran the fastest up the Koppenberg, he'll be a
frikkin genius for using road-beaters.

Fred

Hincapie may end up bringing the water up to Popovych in the Tour.
Landis might be the more dangerous of the North Americans.

bob sullivan said:

It's funny, though, that just when you think you've figured out the
tactics based on the teams guys are on, new tactics sometimes get
introduced in the middle of the race based on country allegiances.
I mean, Savoldelli's Disco support wasn't particularly strong last
year, but he got some help from Italians on other teams, because he's
Italian.

of course riders collaborate at times, say to eastablish a break, but
it's almost never the case that a rider who has a chance to win takes a
gamble which is almost guaranteed to hand someone else the win
(intentionally).

in henry's scenario for either flecha or hincapie to win the other
would have to make the attack which will ultimately fail.

even when riders work for riders on another team as you noticed (in
fact, it was van huffel who was working for savoldelli and diluca
seemed to be working for simoni on the finestre stage) that raised
eyebrows.

Kurgan Gringioni said:

Podium was assured in the last 10k. They had a minute's lead.

At that point, they're going for the win. There's nothing to lose.
Flecha and Hincapie just had the wrong tactics. If they were in the
same situation again, you can rest assured that they would trade
attacks on Boonen. At the very least, it would perhaps take something
out of his legs in the sprint relative to the others.

I was actually rather surprised that they didn't do the old "Two on One"
trick. As you say the worst that could have happened was that Boonen
would have been weakened somewhat and the best would have been that they
would have been sprinting for First and Second instead of Second and Third,
in which case Hincappie would have won because Flecha was pretty cooked.

If the DS's couldn't make a deal, then the riders should have made their
own deal;

Kelly wouldn't have thought twice before setting something up if he'd been
in that situation 🙂

--
Davey on the Road

amit said:

dumbass,

have you watched any pros races? riders on different teams never
collaborate to take on the best sprinter in a break

Dumbass -

Goddamm, do you ever have your head up your ass. It happened just this
week.

From:
http://www.cyclingnews.com/road.php?id=road/2006/mar06/depanne06/depanne061

The fastest man in the group, Napolitano, wasn't co-operating. As a
reaction to his behaviour, the others were attacking trying to get rid
of the Italian sprinter. Steegmans, Eisel and Hoste were the only
riders that got away.

<snip><end>

thanks,

K. Gringioni.

Davey Crockett said:

Quoted message said:

I was actually rather surprised that they didn't do the old "Two on One"
trick. As you say the worst that could have happened was that Boonen
would have been weakened somewhat and the best would have been that they
would have been sprinting for First and Second instead of Second and Third,
in which case Hincappie would have won because Flecha was pretty cooked.

If the DS's couldn't make a deal, then the riders should have made their
own deal;

Kelly wouldn't have thought twice before setting something up if he'd been
in that situation 🙂

Dumbass -

Ya, well, Kelly was quite a bit craftier than George and Flecha.

thanks,

K. Gringioni.

"B. Lafferty" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

JFT said:

Quoted message said:

I'm serious. What else can you say?

B. Lafferty said:

Work for Leif, Goerge. While everyone is focusing on Boonen the sprinter,
they tend to forget how well he rides the bergs, as in Patersberg for
example. ..................

Provisional
1 Tom Boonen (Bel) Quick.Step 6.30.14
2 Leif Hoste (Bel) Discovery Channel 0.01
3 George Hincapie (USA) Discovery

bob sullivan said:

It's funny, though, that just when you think you've figured out the
tactics based on the teams guys are on, new tactics sometimes get
introduced in the middle of the race based on country allegiances.
I mean, Savoldelli's Disco support wasn't particularly strong last
year, but he got some help from Italians on other teams, because he's
Italian.

Well it might have been because they were Italian. On the other hand they
might have been promised some dinero in the good old fashioned way.

B. Lafferty said:

"B. Lafferty" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

JFT said:

Quoted message said:

I'm serious. What else can you say?

B. Lafferty said:

Work for Leif, Goerge. While everyone is focusing on Boonen the sprinter,
they tend to forget how well he rides the bergs, as in Patersberg for
example. ..................

Provisional
1 Tom Boonen (Bel) Quick.Step 6.30.14
2 Leif Hoste (Bel) Discovery Channel 0.01
3 George Hincapie (USA) Discovery

Well, Brian, how before they catch Tom as a druggie. He CAN'T be this
good and be drug-free, right?

"news.tyler.net" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:VyYXf.9046$9h5.5447@dukeread09...

Quoted message said:

B. Lafferty said:

"B. Lafferty" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

JFT said:

>I'm serious. What else can you say?

B. Lafferty said:

Work for Leif, Goerge. While everyone is focusing on Boonen the
sprinter, they tend to forget how well he rides the bergs, as in
Patersberg for example. ..................

Provisional
1 Tom Boonen (Bel) Quick.Step 6.30.14
2 Leif Hoste (Bel) Discovery Channel 0.01
3 George Hincapie (USA) Discovery

Well, Brian, how before they catch Tom as a druggie. He CAN'T be this good
and be drug-free, right?

He may well be a druggie. What do you think? Anyone else in the top ten
that you think may be a drugie?