Kettlebell Intro

Steve Freides said:

No reason one can't work a lot of sets on this after first working up to
it, and one can build strength/endurance with short sets on short rests.

Yer rite. I tend to avoid high volume work so I don't tend to think
of doing front squats in terms of 5-8 sets of 3 or 10-12 sets of 2
with short rests between sets.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The 2 KB FS. Fine for strength endurance and doesn't stress the
wrists.

Quoted message said:

Yup - I really like this move with kettlebells. I am going to work on
doing it with a pair of 88's.

Lucky you for having 2 bulldogs!

Quoted message said:

Either way, my point is that holding the weight in front of you is more
like moving most stuff.

I've started doing KB hack squats with the 53 and 71 pounders (not
competition-style and I suspect I'm not going low enough with either).
Having the weight behind me doesn't make this a bad exercise for leg
strength. Good for the knees too, if there's nothing wrong with one's
knees now.

How about adding the Zercher lift for furniture movers?
http://ironbarbell.com/Articles/Zercher.html

Talk about carrying and moving stuff, I'm also doing farmer walks at
the gym. I'm searching for tips on how to turn around most
efficiently

Quoted message said:

Steve Freides said:

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Fri, 29 Apr 2005 20:31:27 -0500, Proton Soup <[email hidden]>
wrote:

>On Fri, 29 Apr 2005 16:16:29 -0400, frank-in-toronto
><[email hidden]> wrote:
>
>>On Fri, 29 Apr 2005 02:59:36 GMT, [email hidden] wrote:
>>
>>>On Thu, 28 Apr 2005 17:03:00 -0400, frank-in-toronto
>>><[email hidden]> wrote:
>>>
>>>>We have a kettlebell guy coming to the gym next week. He'll be
>>>>giving 2 introductory classes and then most likely we'll set
>>>>up a series of 8.
>>>>
>>>>What should I be looking for? I want to get as much out of
>>>>this as I can.
>>>>...thehick
>>>
>>>Apart from the humor value (such as it is), pay no attention to the
>>>first three responses you received.
>>>
>>>If you want an informed response, Steve is the only person currently
>>>active on this ng who can supply it. To try for more than one
>>>informed response, post your question at
>>>http://forum.dragondoor.com/training/
>>>
>>>In addition, you might get some ideas by reading articles at
>>>http://www.dragondoor.com/articler/mode2/Kettlebells
>>i'll be checking the dragondoor site and others. i'm interested
>>in the functional strength aspect mostly. i'm not trying
>>to add weight (in fact, losing a little wouldn't hurt
>>my running), but I would like to be stronger. If i can
>>get some short (time-wise) exercises out of this,
>>I'll be very pleased.
>>thanks for the suggestions...thehick
>
>Powerlifters are said to make good furniture movers. Doesn't get much
>more practical than that.

What's the technique for lowering the weight during a deadlift?
Oh, ok, put the piano down over there.

FWIW, I think the front squat is the movement with the most carryover to
moving furniture, shrubs, etc. Probably a sandbag front squat at that,
but a barbell or 2-kb front squat isn't bad.

-S-
http://www.kbnj.com

And how am I supposed to attach my StingRay
http://www.qfac.com/gear/stingray.html to a shrub?

The BB front squat? Not something to build strength endurance. 3 reps
are enough. Stresses the wrists and shoulders. Tough on the knees if
the FSs are high.

IOM?

Quoted message said:

The 2 KB FS. Fine for strength endurance and doesn't stress the
wrists.

I agree that rounded-back lifting (sandbags) would be a great addition
to a S&C program for furniture movers.

Toss in the basic powerlifts and KB drills that involve lifting
weights at odd angles and in quirky positions and you've got yourself
a first-class furniture mover. (Be sure he's fully insured!)

-----------
Proton Soup

"And all this peace has been deceiving,
I need some wind to get me sailing"

Proton Soup said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

In addition, you might get some ideas by reading articles at
http://www.dragondoor.com/articler/mode2/Kettlebells

i'll be checking the dragondoor site and others. i'm interested
in the functional strength aspect mostly. i'm not trying
to add weight (in fact, losing a little wouldn't hurt
my running), but I would like to be stronger. If i can
get some short (time-wise) exercises out of this,
I'll be very pleased.
thanks for the suggestions...thehick

Quoted message said:

Powerlifters are said to make good furniture movers. Doesn't get much
more practical than that.

Nobody can beat Strongs as furniture movers.

---
Signature has been removed to save disk space.

On Sat, 30 Apr 2005 13:46:51 -0500, Proton Soup <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Steve Freides said:

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
> On Fri, 29 Apr 2005 20:31:27 -0500, Proton Soup <[email hidden]>
> wrote:
>
>>On Fri, 29 Apr 2005 16:16:29 -0400, frank-in-toronto
>><[email hidden]> wrote:
>>
>>>On Fri, 29 Apr 2005 02:59:36 GMT, [email hidden] wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Thu, 28 Apr 2005 17:03:00 -0400, frank-in-toronto
>>>><[email hidden]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>We have a kettlebell guy coming to the gym next week. He'll be
>>>>>giving 2 introductory classes and then most likely we'll set
>>>>>up a series of 8.
>>>>>
>>>>>What should I be looking for? I want to get as much out of
>>>>>this as I can.
>>>>>...thehick
>>>>
>>>>Apart from the humor value (such as it is), pay no attention to the
>>>>first three responses you received.
>>>>
>>>>If you want an informed response, Steve is the only person currently
>>>>active on this ng who can supply it. To try for more than one
>>>>informed response, post your question at
>>>>http://forum.dragondoor.com/training/
>>>>
>>>>In addition, you might get some ideas by reading articles at
>>>>http://www.dragondoor.com/articler/mode2/Kettlebells
>>>i'll be checking the dragondoor site and others. i'm interested
>>>in the functional strength aspect mostly. i'm not trying
>>>to add weight (in fact, losing a little wouldn't hurt
>>>my running), but I would like to be stronger. If i can
>>>get some short (time-wise) exercises out of this,
>>>I'll be very pleased.
>>>thanks for the suggestions...thehick
>>
>>Powerlifters are said to make good furniture movers. Doesn't get much
>>more practical than that.
>
> What's the technique for lowering the weight during a deadlift?
> Oh, ok, put the piano down over there.

FWIW, I think the front squat is the movement with the most carryover to
moving furniture, shrubs, etc. Probably a sandbag front squat at that,
but a barbell or 2-kb front squat isn't bad.

-S-
http://www.kbnj.com

And how am I supposed to attach my StingRay
http://www.qfac.com/gear/stingray.html to a shrub?

The BB front squat? Not something to build strength endurance. 3 reps
are enough. Stresses the wrists and shoulders. Tough on the knees if
the FSs are high.

IOM?

Quoted message said:

The 2 KB FS. Fine for strength endurance and doesn't stress the
wrists.

I agree that rounded-back lifting (sandbags) would be a great addition
to a S&C program for furniture movers.

Toss in the basic powerlifts and KB drills that involve lifting
weights at odd angles and in quirky positions and you've got yourself
a first-class furniture mover. (Be sure he's fully insured!)

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The BB front squat? Not something to build strength endurance. 3 reps
are enough. Stresses the wrists and shoulders. Tough on the knees if
the FSs are high.

IOM?

IOM? Whazzat? Institute of Medicine?

I retract my statment that the FS isn't good for building strength
endurance.

Does it stress the wrists and shoulders? Try it weightlifting style
(not with crossed arms or with a StingRay)
http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/OlympicLifts/FrontSquat.html

With respect to the issue of squat depth and potential for knee
injury, I can only say that this is a complicated topic
http://www.exrx.net/ExInfo/Squats.html

It's a topic that has cropped up on MFW many times. See, for example
-
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/misc.fitness.weights/msg/f932bab23691d9cd

http://groups-beta.google.com/group/misc.fitness.weights/msg/eaab0c75236218bb

I don't know why high FSs are potentially dangerous to one's knees.
I'd like to read an explanation.

Quoted message said:

On Sat, 30 Apr 2005 13:46:51 -0500, Proton Soup <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

On Sat, 30 Apr 2005 12:52:37 -0400, "Steve Freides"
<[email hidden]> wrote:

><[email hidden]> wrote in message
>news:[email hidden]...
>> On Fri, 29 Apr 2005 20:31:27 -0500, Proton Soup <[email hidden]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>On Fri, 29 Apr 2005 16:16:29 -0400, frank-in-toronto
>>><[email hidden]> wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Fri, 29 Apr 2005 02:59:36 GMT, [email hidden] wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On Thu, 28 Apr 2005 17:03:00 -0400, frank-in-toronto
>>>>><[email hidden]> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>We have a kettlebell guy coming to the gym next week. He'll be
>>>>>>giving 2 introductory classes and then most likely we'll set
>>>>>>up a series of 8.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>What should I be looking for? I want to get as much out of
>>>>>>this as I can.
>>>>>>...thehick
>>>>>
>>>>>Apart from the humor value (such as it is), pay no attention to the
>>>>>first three responses you received.
>>>>>
>>>>>If you want an informed response, Steve is the only person currently
>>>>>active on this ng who can supply it. To try for more than one
>>>>>informed response, post your question at
>>>>>http://forum.dragondoor.com/training/
>>>>>
>>>>>In addition, you might get some ideas by reading articles at
>>>>>http://www.dragondoor.com/articler/mode2/Kettlebells
>>>>i'll be checking the dragondoor site and others. i'm interested
>>>>in the functional strength aspect mostly. i'm not trying
>>>>to add weight (in fact, losing a little wouldn't hurt
>>>>my running), but I would like to be stronger. If i can
>>>>get some short (time-wise) exercises out of this,
>>>>I'll be very pleased.
>>>>thanks for the suggestions...thehick
>>>
>>>Powerlifters are said to make good furniture movers. Doesn't get much
>>>more practical than that.
>>
>> What's the technique for lowering the weight during a deadlift?
>> Oh, ok, put the piano down over there.
>
>FWIW, I think the front squat is the movement with the most carryover to
>moving furniture, shrubs, etc. Probably a sandbag front squat at that,
>but a barbell or 2-kb front squat isn't bad.
>
>-S-
>http://www.kbnj.com

And how am I supposed to attach my StingRay
http://www.qfac.com/gear/stingray.html to a shrub?

The BB front squat? Not something to build strength endurance. 3 reps
are enough. Stresses the wrists and shoulders. Tough on the knees if
the FSs are high.

IOM?

Quoted message said:

The 2 KB FS. Fine for strength endurance and doesn't stress the
wrists.

I agree that rounded-back lifting (sandbags) would be a great addition
to a S&C program for furniture movers.

Toss in the basic powerlifts and KB drills that involve lifting
weights at odd angles and in quirky positions and you've got yourself
a first-class furniture mover. (Be sure he's fully insured!)

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The BB front squat? Not something to build strength endurance. 3 reps
are enough. Stresses the wrists and shoulders. Tough on the knees if
the FSs are high.

IOM?

IOM? Whazzat? Institute of Medicine?

I retract my statment that the FS isn't good for building strength
endurance.

Does it stress the wrists and shoulders? Try it weightlifting style
(not with crossed arms or with a StingRay)
http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/OlympicLifts/FrontSquat.html

With respect to the issue of squat depth and potential for knee
injury, I can only say that this is a complicated topic
http://www.exrx.net/ExInfo/Squats.html

It's a topic that has cropped up on MFW many times. See, for example
-
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/misc.fitness.weights/msg/f932bab23691d9cd

http://groups-beta.google.com/group/misc.fitness.weights/msg/eaab0c75236218bb

I don't know why high FSs are potentially dangerous to one's knees.
I'd like to read an explanation.

By FS, I assume you mean a Front Squat. But even if you mean a Full
Squat, I still don't understand why you're saying they're bad for the
knees. Your examples listed are saying just the opposite. Plus, most
people can't do a front squat with anywhere near the weight of a
convention squat with the bar on their back. So this will place even
less stress on the knees.

Now, there may be something to the wrist shoulder thing, but I believe
that's also mostly a factor of things like flexibility and properly
resting the bar on your shoulders, no?

-----------
Proton Soup

"And all this peace has been deceiving,
I need some wind to get me sailing"

On Sat, 30 Apr 2005 21:21:56 -0500, Proton Soup <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

On Sat, 30 Apr 2005 13:46:51 -0500, Proton Soup <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

On Sat, 30 Apr 2005 17:25:26 GMT, [email hidden] wrote:

>On Sat, 30 Apr 2005 12:52:37 -0400, "Steve Freides"
><[email hidden]> wrote:
>
>><[email hidden]> wrote in message
>>news:[email hidden]...
>>> On Fri, 29 Apr 2005 20:31:27 -0500, Proton Soup <[email hidden]>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Fri, 29 Apr 2005 16:16:29 -0400, frank-in-toronto
>>>><[email hidden]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On Fri, 29 Apr 2005 02:59:36 GMT, [email hidden] wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>On Thu, 28 Apr 2005 17:03:00 -0400, frank-in-toronto
>>>>>><[email hidden]> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>We have a kettlebell guy coming to the gym next week. He'll be
>>>>>>>giving 2 introductory classes and then most likely we'll set
>>>>>>>up a series of 8.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>What should I be looking for? I want to get as much out of
>>>>>>>this as I can.
>>>>>>>...thehick
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Apart from the humor value (such as it is), pay no attention to the
>>>>>>first three responses you received.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>If you want an informed response, Steve is the only person currently
>>>>>>active on this ng who can supply it. To try for more than one
>>>>>>informed response, post your question at
>>>>>>http://forum.dragondoor.com/training/
>>>>>>
>>>>>>In addition, you might get some ideas by reading articles at
>>>>>>http://www.dragondoor.com/articler/mode2/Kettlebells
>>>>>i'll be checking the dragondoor site and others. i'm interested
>>>>>in the functional strength aspect mostly. i'm not trying
>>>>>to add weight (in fact, losing a little wouldn't hurt
>>>>>my running), but I would like to be stronger. If i can
>>>>>get some short (time-wise) exercises out of this,
>>>>>I'll be very pleased.
>>>>>thanks for the suggestions...thehick
>>>>
>>>>Powerlifters are said to make good furniture movers. Doesn't get much
>>>>more practical than that.
>>>
>>> What's the technique for lowering the weight during a deadlift?
>>> Oh, ok, put the piano down over there.
>>
>>FWIW, I think the front squat is the movement with the most carryover to
>>moving furniture, shrubs, etc. Probably a sandbag front squat at that,
>>but a barbell or 2-kb front squat isn't bad.
>>
>>-S-
>>http://www.kbnj.com
>
>And how am I supposed to attach my StingRay
>http://www.qfac.com/gear/stingray.html to a shrub?
>
>The BB front squat? Not something to build strength endurance. 3 reps
>are enough. Stresses the wrists and shoulders. Tough on the knees if
>the FSs are high.

IOM?

>The 2 KB FS. Fine for strength endurance and doesn't stress the
>wrists.
>
>I agree that rounded-back lifting (sandbags) would be a great addition
>to a S&C program for furniture movers.
>
>Toss in the basic powerlifts and KB drills that involve lifting
>weights at odd angles and in quirky positions and you've got yourself
>a first-class furniture mover. (Be sure he's fully insured!)

Quoted message said:

>The BB front squat? Not something to build strength endurance. 3 reps
>are enough. Stresses the wrists and shoulders. Tough on the knees if
>the FSs are high.

IOM?

IOM? Whazzat? Institute of Medicine?

I retract my statment that the FS isn't good for building strength
endurance.

Does it stress the wrists and shoulders? Try it weightlifting style
(not with crossed arms or with a StingRay)
http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/OlympicLifts/FrontSquat.html

With respect to the issue of squat depth and potential for knee
injury, I can only say that this is a complicated topic
http://www.exrx.net/ExInfo/Squats.html

It's a topic that has cropped up on MFW many times. See, for example
-
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/misc.fitness.weights/msg/f932bab23691d9cd

http://groups-beta.google.com/group/misc.fitness.weights/msg/eaab0c75236218bb

I don't know why high FSs are potentially dangerous to one's knees.
I'd like to read an explanation.

By FS, I assume you mean a Front Squat. But even if you mean a Full
Squat, I still don't understand why you're saying they're bad for the
knees. Your examples listed are saying just the opposite. Plus, most
people can't do a front squat with anywhere near the weight of a
convention squat with the bar on their back. So this will place even
less stress on the knees.

Now, there may be something to the wrist shoulder thing, but I believe
that's also mostly a factor of things like flexibility and properly
resting the bar on your shoulders, no?

Yes, FS=front squat. I don't think squats (front or rear) need to be
bad for the knees. I think that partial rear squats and high front
squats are likely to be worse for the knees than competition-level
powerlifting rear squats (or lower) and deep front squats. But
everything depends on a bunch of factors.
http://www.exrx.net/ExInfo/Squats.html
I think that partial squats can be safe and productive, especially if
one also does deeper ones with the proper technique.

I do hack squats with a kettlebell where my knees extend in front of
my toes and I'm on the balls of my feet. That technique would be
disastrous with a heavy BB, but it's fine with the 53 and 71 lb KBs
I use. Even so, I'd never recommend a KB hack squat to someone with
bad knees.

I can't FS what I can rear squat (both numbers are laughably light).
Still, don't underestimate the knee-extension component of a FS. In a
FS "the bar is being held in front of your body and is supported by
your upper chest and front delts. This reduces hip involvement while
increasing the knee-extension component and involvement of the spinal
erectors. Besides providing the most control over the bar, racking
the bar in this manner also allows you to squeeze out more weight and
more reps."
http://www.gymaddiction.com/exercises/quads.html#front

I've read different recommendations for FS depth. For example, Marty
Gallagher wrote that for the FS, one should "squat down slowly to a
point where the tops of thighs are parallel to the floor..." (Muscle
Media, Oct 2003, p. 26). Pavel Tsatsouline, on the other hand, wrote:
"A note on the front squat depth: Always go rock bottom. For reasons
that are too complex to be discussed in a concise FAQ section,
high-front squats are too rough on the knees." (Muscle Media, May
2003, p.93)

I'm sure flexibility and technique are very important for doing
FSs, weightlifting-style. I use a StingRay so I don't have to worry
about wrist and shoulder stress (at least not with the FS).

Quoted message said:

On Sat, 30 Apr 2005 21:21:56 -0500, Proton Soup <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

On Sat, 30 Apr 2005 13:46:51 -0500, Proton Soup <[email hidden]>
wrote:

>On Sat, 30 Apr 2005 17:25:26 GMT, [email hidden] wrote:
>
>>On Sat, 30 Apr 2005 12:52:37 -0400, "Steve Freides"
>><[email hidden]> wrote:
>>
>>><[email hidden]> wrote in message
>>>news:[email hidden]...
>>>> On Fri, 29 Apr 2005 20:31:27 -0500, Proton Soup <[email hidden]>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On Fri, 29 Apr 2005 16:16:29 -0400, frank-in-toronto
>>>>><[email hidden]> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>On Fri, 29 Apr 2005 02:59:36 GMT, [email hidden] wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>On Thu, 28 Apr 2005 17:03:00 -0400, frank-in-toronto
>>>>>>><[email hidden]> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>We have a kettlebell guy coming to the gym next week. He'll be
>>>>>>>>giving 2 introductory classes and then most likely we'll set
>>>>>>>>up a series of 8.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>What should I be looking for? I want to get as much out of
>>>>>>>>this as I can.
>>>>>>>>...thehick
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Apart from the humor value (such as it is), pay no attention to the
>>>>>>>first three responses you received.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>If you want an informed response, Steve is the only person currently
>>>>>>>active on this ng who can supply it. To try for more than one
>>>>>>>informed response, post your question at
>>>>>>>http://forum.dragondoor.com/training/
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>In addition, you might get some ideas by reading articles at
>>>>>>>http://www.dragondoor.com/articler/mode2/Kettlebells
>>>>>>i'll be checking the dragondoor site and others. i'm interested
>>>>>>in the functional strength aspect mostly. i'm not trying
>>>>>>to add weight (in fact, losing a little wouldn't hurt
>>>>>>my running), but I would like to be stronger. If i can
>>>>>>get some short (time-wise) exercises out of this,
>>>>>>I'll be very pleased.
>>>>>>thanks for the suggestions...thehick
>>>>>
>>>>>Powerlifters are said to make good furniture movers. Doesn't get much
>>>>>more practical than that.
>>>>
>>>> What's the technique for lowering the weight during a deadlift?
>>>> Oh, ok, put the piano down over there.
>>>
>>>FWIW, I think the front squat is the movement with the most carryover to
>>>moving furniture, shrubs, etc. Probably a sandbag front squat at that,
>>>but a barbell or 2-kb front squat isn't bad.
>>>
>>>-S-
>>>http://www.kbnj.com
>>
>>And how am I supposed to attach my StingRay
>>http://www.qfac.com/gear/stingray.html to a shrub?
>>
>>The BB front squat? Not something to build strength endurance. 3 reps
>>are enough. Stresses the wrists and shoulders. Tough on the knees if
>>the FSs are high.
>
>IOM?
>
>>The 2 KB FS. Fine for strength endurance and doesn't stress the
>>wrists.
>>
>>I agree that rounded-back lifting (sandbags) would be a great addition
>>to a S&C program for furniture movers.
>>
>>Toss in the basic powerlifts and KB drills that involve lifting
>>weights at odd angles and in quirky positions and you've got yourself
>>a first-class furniture mover. (Be sure he's fully insured!)

>>The BB front squat? Not something to build strength endurance. 3 reps
>>are enough. Stresses the wrists and shoulders. Tough on the knees if
>>the FSs are high.
>
>IOM?

IOM? Whazzat? Institute of Medicine?

I retract my statment that the FS isn't good for building strength
endurance.

Does it stress the wrists and shoulders? Try it weightlifting style
(not with crossed arms or with a StingRay)
http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/OlympicLifts/FrontSquat.html

With respect to the issue of squat depth and potential for knee
injury, I can only say that this is a complicated topic
http://www.exrx.net/ExInfo/Squats.html

It's a topic that has cropped up on MFW many times. See, for example
-
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/misc.fitness.weights/msg/f932bab23691d9cd

http://groups-beta.google.com/group/misc.fitness.weights/msg/eaab0c75236218bb

I don't know why high FSs are potentially dangerous to one's knees.
I'd like to read an explanation.

By FS, I assume you mean a Front Squat. But even if you mean a Full
Squat, I still don't understand why you're saying they're bad for the
knees. Your examples listed are saying just the opposite. Plus, most
people can't do a front squat with anywhere near the weight of a
convention squat with the bar on their back. So this will place even
less stress on the knees.

Now, there may be something to the wrist shoulder thing, but I believe
that's also mostly a factor of things like flexibility and properly
resting the bar on your shoulders, no?

Yes, FS=front squat. I don't think squats (front or rear) need to be
bad for the knees. I think that partial rear squats and high front
squats are likely to be worse for the knees than competition-level
powerlifting rear squats (or lower) and deep front squats. But
everything depends on a bunch of factors.
http://www.exrx.net/ExInfo/Squats.html
I think that partial squats can be safe and productive, especially if
one also does deeper ones with the proper technique.

I do hack squats with a kettlebell where my knees extend in front of
my toes and I'm on the balls of my feet. That technique would be
disastrous with a heavy BB, but it's fine with the 53 and 71 lb KBs
I use. Even so, I'd never recommend a KB hack squat to someone with
bad knees.

I can't FS what I can rear squat (both numbers are laughably light).
Still, don't underestimate the knee-extension component of a FS. In a
FS "the bar is being held in front of your body and is supported by
your upper chest and front delts. This reduces hip involvement while
increasing the knee-extension component and involvement of the spinal
erectors. Besides providing the most control over the bar, racking
the bar in this manner also allows you to squeeze out more weight and
more reps."
http://www.gymaddiction.com/exercises/quads.html#front

I've read different recommendations for FS depth. For example, Marty
Gallagher wrote that for the FS, one should "squat down slowly to a
point where the tops of thighs are parallel to the floor..." (Muscle
Media, Oct 2003, p. 26). Pavel Tsatsouline, on the other hand, wrote:
"A note on the front squat depth: Always go rock bottom. For reasons
that are too complex to be discussed in a concise FAQ section,
high-front squats are too rough on the knees." (Muscle Media, May
2003, p.93)

I'm sure flexibility and technique are very important for doing
FSs, weightlifting-style. I use a StingRay so I don't have to worry
about wrist and shoulder stress (at least not with the FS).

Weightlifting pixies seem to have different ideas about the FS.

"Despite all that stuff about squats supposedly being bad for your
knees, full depth squats are actually great for knee rehab. They
strengthen all the leg muscles with a compound, natural movement. If
you can squat without pain, then by all means do so, even if you can't
use any weight. If you can't squat the full range, squat in the range
of motion which is pain-free for you, and gradually try to increase
the range. Front squats are an ideal exercise, both because they put
more emphasis on the quads, and because they seem to put pressure
differently on the knee joint. When I was having real PF problems, I
could do full depth front squats with no difficulty whatsoever."

http://stumptuous.com/pf.html

But what it really comes down to I think is that the FS is a gurl
exercise. Maybe you just need wide hips. Or something.

http://stumptuous.com/weights.html

-----------
Proton Soup

"And all this peace has been deceiving,
I need some wind to get me sailing"

On Sat, 30 Apr 2005 23:41:58 -0500, Proton Soup <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

On Sat, 30 Apr 2005 21:21:56 -0500, Proton Soup <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

On Sat, 30 Apr 2005 22:53:52 GMT, [email hidden] wrote:

[...]

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

http://www.gymaddiction.com/exercises/quads.html#front

I've read different recommendations for FS depth. For example, Marty
Gallagher wrote that for the FS, one should "squat down slowly to a
point where the tops of thighs are parallel to the floor..." (Muscle
Media, Oct 2003, p. 26). Pavel Tsatsouline, on the other hand, wrote:
"A note on the front squat depth: Always go rock bottom. For reasons
that are too complex to be discussed in a concise FAQ section,
high-front squats are too rough on the knees." (Muscle Media, May
2003, p.93)

I'm sure flexibility and technique are very important for doing
FSs, weightlifting-style. I use a StingRay so I don't have to worry
about wrist and shoulder stress (at least not with the FS).

Weightlifting pixies seem to have different ideas about the FS.

"Despite all that stuff about squats supposedly being bad for your
knees, full depth squats are actually great for knee rehab. They
strengthen all the leg muscles with a compound, natural movement. If
you can squat without pain, then by all means do so, even if you can't
use any weight. If you can't squat the full range, squat in the range
of motion which is pain-free for you, and gradually try to increase
the range. Front squats are an ideal exercise, both because they put
more emphasis on the quads, and because they seem to put pressure
differently on the knee joint. When I was having real PF problems, I
could do full depth front squats with no difficulty whatsoever."

I can vouch for this, as following some advice from Hobman a couple of
years ago, I started to do deep squats ([censored] to grass) as a regular
part of my workouts, and to my delight they cured what I had thought
were irrevocably damaged and painful knees.

Have a great weekend PS - you know I will!! ;o)

On Sat, 30 Apr 2005 23:41:58 -0500, Proton Soup <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

On Sat, 30 Apr 2005 21:21:56 -0500, Proton Soup <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

On Sat, 30 Apr 2005 22:53:52 GMT, [email hidden] wrote:

>On Sat, 30 Apr 2005 13:46:51 -0500, Proton Soup <[email hidden]>
>wrote:
>
>>On Sat, 30 Apr 2005 17:25:26 GMT, [email hidden] wrote:
>>
>>>On Sat, 30 Apr 2005 12:52:37 -0400, "Steve Freides"
>>><[email hidden]> wrote:
>>>
>>>><[email hidden]> wrote in message
>>>>news:[email hidden]...
>>>>> On Fri, 29 Apr 2005 20:31:27 -0500, Proton Soup <[email hidden]>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>On Fri, 29 Apr 2005 16:16:29 -0400, frank-in-toronto
>>>>>><[email hidden]> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>On Fri, 29 Apr 2005 02:59:36 GMT, [email hidden] wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>On Thu, 28 Apr 2005 17:03:00 -0400, frank-in-toronto
>>>>>>>><[email hidden]> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>We have a kettlebell guy coming to the gym next week. He'll be
>>>>>>>>>giving 2 introductory classes and then most likely we'll set
>>>>>>>>>up a series of 8.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>What should I be looking for? I want to get as much out of
>>>>>>>>>this as I can.
>>>>>>>>>...thehick
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Apart from the humor value (such as it is), pay no attention to the
>>>>>>>>first three responses you received.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>If you want an informed response, Steve is the only person currently
>>>>>>>>active on this ng who can supply it. To try for more than one
>>>>>>>>informed response, post your question at
>>>>>>>>http://forum.dragondoor.com/training/
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>In addition, you might get some ideas by reading articles at
>>>>>>>>http://www.dragondoor.com/articler/mode2/Kettlebells
>>>>>>>i'll be checking the dragondoor site and others. i'm interested
>>>>>>>in the functional strength aspect mostly. i'm not trying
>>>>>>>to add weight (in fact, losing a little wouldn't hurt
>>>>>>>my running), but I would like to be stronger. If i can
>>>>>>>get some short (time-wise) exercises out of this,
>>>>>>>I'll be very pleased.
>>>>>>>thanks for the suggestions...thehick
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Powerlifters are said to make good furniture movers. Doesn't get much
>>>>>>more practical than that.
>>>>>
>>>>> What's the technique for lowering the weight during a deadlift?
>>>>> Oh, ok, put the piano down over there.
>>>>
>>>>FWIW, I think the front squat is the movement with the most carryover to
>>>>moving furniture, shrubs, etc. Probably a sandbag front squat at that,
>>>>but a barbell or 2-kb front squat isn't bad.
>>>>
>>>>-S-
>>>>http://www.kbnj.com
>>>
>>>And how am I supposed to attach my StingRay
>>>http://www.qfac.com/gear/stingray.html to a shrub?
>>>
>>>The BB front squat? Not something to build strength endurance. 3 reps
>>>are enough. Stresses the wrists and shoulders. Tough on the knees if
>>>the FSs are high.
>>
>>IOM?
>>
>>>The 2 KB FS. Fine for strength endurance and doesn't stress the
>>>wrists.
>>>
>>>I agree that rounded-back lifting (sandbags) would be a great addition
>>>to a S&C program for furniture movers.
>>>
>>>Toss in the basic powerlifts and KB drills that involve lifting
>>>weights at odd angles and in quirky positions and you've got yourself
>>>a first-class furniture mover. (Be sure he's fully insured!)
>
>
>>>The BB front squat? Not something to build strength endurance. 3 reps
>>>are enough. Stresses the wrists and shoulders. Tough on the knees if
>>>the FSs are high.
>>
>>IOM?
>
> IOM? Whazzat? Institute of Medicine?
>
>
>
>I retract my statment that the FS isn't good for building strength
>endurance.
>
>Does it stress the wrists and shoulders? Try it weightlifting style
>(not with crossed arms or with a StingRay)
>http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/OlympicLifts/FrontSquat.html
>
>With respect to the issue of squat depth and potential for knee
>injury, I can only say that this is a complicated topic
>http://www.exrx.net/ExInfo/Squats.html
>
>It's a topic that has cropped up on MFW many times. See, for example
>-
>http://groups-beta.google.com/group/misc.fitness.weights/msg/f932bab23691d9cd
>
>http://groups-beta.google.com/group/misc.fitness.weights/msg/eaab0c75236218bb
>
>I don't know why high FSs are potentially dangerous to one's knees.
>I'd like to read an explanation.

By FS, I assume you mean a Front Squat. But even if you mean a Full
Squat, I still don't understand why you're saying they're bad for the
knees. Your examples listed are saying just the opposite. Plus, most
people can't do a front squat with anywhere near the weight of a
convention squat with the bar on their back. So this will place even
less stress on the knees.

Now, there may be something to the wrist shoulder thing, but I believe
that's also mostly a factor of things like flexibility and properly
resting the bar on your shoulders, no?

Yes, FS=front squat. I don't think squats (front or rear) need to be
bad for the knees. I think that partial rear squats and high front
squats are likely to be worse for the knees than competition-level
powerlifting rear squats (or lower) and deep front squats. But
everything depends on a bunch of factors.
http://www.exrx.net/ExInfo/Squats.html
I think that partial squats can be safe and productive, especially if
one also does deeper ones with the proper technique.

I do hack squats with a kettlebell where my knees extend in front of
my toes and I'm on the balls of my feet. That technique would be
disastrous with a heavy BB, but it's fine with the 53 and 71 lb KBs
I use. Even so, I'd never recommend a KB hack squat to someone with
bad knees.

I can't FS what I can rear squat (both numbers are laughably light).
Still, don't underestimate the knee-extension component of a FS. In a
FS "the bar is being held in front of your body and is supported by
your upper chest and front delts. This reduces hip involvement while
increasing the knee-extension component and involvement of the spinal
erectors. Besides providing the most control over the bar, racking
the bar in this manner also allows you to squeeze out more weight and
more reps."
http://www.gymaddiction.com/exercises/quads.html#front

I've read different recommendations for FS depth. For example, Marty
Gallagher wrote that for the FS, one should "squat down slowly to a
point where the tops of thighs are parallel to the floor..." (Muscle
Media, Oct 2003, p. 26). Pavel Tsatsouline, on the other hand, wrote:
"A note on the front squat depth: Always go rock bottom. For reasons
that are too complex to be discussed in a concise FAQ section,
high-front squats are too rough on the knees." (Muscle Media, May
2003, p.93)

I'm sure flexibility and technique are very important for doing
FSs, weightlifting-style. I use a StingRay so I don't have to worry
about wrist and shoulder stress (at least not with the FS).

Weightlifting pixies seem to have different ideas about the FS.

"Despite all that stuff about squats supposedly being bad for your
knees, full depth squats are actually great for knee rehab. They
strengthen all the leg muscles with a compound, natural movement. If
you can squat without pain, then by all means do so, even if you can't
use any weight. If you can't squat the full range, squat in the range
of motion which is pain-free for you, and gradually try to increase
the range. Front squats are an ideal exercise, both because they put
more emphasis on the quads, and because they seem to put pressure
differently on the knee joint. When I was having real PF problems, I
could do full depth front squats with no difficulty whatsoever."

http://stumptuous.com/pf.html

But what it really comes down to I think is that the FS is a gurl
exercise. Maybe you just need wide hips. Or something.

http://stumptuous.com/weights.html

This seems to be one of those topics (squat depth and knees) that just
won't go away. Google MFW and you'll find a strong bias in favor of
full squats. Do a Google search on this very complex topic and you'll
find different and more technical perspectives.
http://www.drsquat.com/index.cfm?action=viewarticle&articleID=5
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=11194098&dopt=Citation
http://isb.ri.ccf.org/biomch-l/archives/biomch-l-2001-03/00056.html
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=11528346&dopt=Abstract
http://makeashorterlink.com/?Y2BB12FFA
http://staff.washington.edu/griffin/front_squat.html
http://www.strengthcats.com/squatresource.htm

I don't go rock bottom with squats - front or rear. I'm not that
flexible and I need more hamstring work. Furthermore, I'm not going to
give myself the benefit of the doubt as to whether I'm employing good
technique at any point during descent or ascent. If I can get to a
parallel squat, I'm satisfied.

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
-snip-

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

By FS, I assume you mean a Front Squat. But even if you mean a Full
Squat, I still don't understand why you're saying they're bad for the
knees. Your examples listed are saying just the opposite. Plus, most
people can't do a front squat with anywhere near the weight of a
convention squat with the bar on their back. So this will place even
less stress on the knees.

Now, there may be something to the wrist shoulder thing, but I believe
that's also mostly a factor of things like flexibility and properly
resting the bar on your shoulders, no?

Yes, FS=front squat. I don't think squats (front or rear) need to be
bad for the knees. I think that partial rear squats and high front
squats are likely to be worse for the knees than competition-level
powerlifting rear squats (or lower) and deep front squats. But
everything depends on a bunch of factors.
http://www.exrx.net/ExInfo/Squats.html
I think that partial squats can be safe and productive, especially if
one also does deeper ones with the proper technique.

I do hack squats with a kettlebell where my knees extend in front of
my toes and I'm on the balls of my feet. That technique would be
disastrous with a heavy BB, but it's fine with the 53 and 71 lb KBs
I use. Even so, I'd never recommend a KB hack squat to someone with
bad knees.

I haven't figured out a way to do the kb hack squat without bothering my
knees yet. It's a cool exercise but, at least for me, all the hamstring
tension in more conventional squats seems to stabilize my knees. I've
had knee problems in the past and started having them again when I
started doing the kb hack squat so I've put it on the back burner for
now.

Quoted message said:

I can't FS what I can rear squat (both numbers are laughably light).
Still, don't underestimate the knee-extension component of a FS. In a
FS "the bar is being held in front of your body and is supported by
your upper chest and front delts. This reduces hip involvement while
increasing the knee-extension component and involvement of the spinal
erectors. Besides providing the most control over the bar, racking
the bar in this manner also allows you to squeeze out more weight and
more reps."
http://www.gymaddiction.com/exercises/quads.html#front

When I front squat, my body is more upright and I feel like there's less
work for my spinal erectors because my spine is basically straight up
and down - it's when you're bent forward that you've got more work to do
in resisting the weight trying to bend you over at the waist. Can't
comment about the knees as I've never noticed a difference for me there.

Quoted message said:

I've read different recommendations for FS depth. For example, Marty
Gallagher wrote that for the FS, one should "squat down slowly to a
point where the tops of thighs are parallel to the floor..." (Muscle
Media, Oct 2003, p. 26). Pavel Tsatsouline, on the other hand, wrote:
"A note on the front squat depth: Always go rock bottom. For reasons
that are too complex to be discussed in a concise FAQ section,
high-front squats are too rough on the knees." (Muscle Media, May
2003, p.93)

Marty is mostly about PL competition, while Pavel's focus is broader.

-S-
http://www.kbnj.com

Quoted message said:

I'm sure flexibility and technique are very important for doing
FSs, weightlifting-style. I use a StingRay so I don't have to worry
about wrist and shoulder stress (at least not with the FS).

"Proton Soup" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
-snip-

Quoted message said:

By FS, I assume you mean a Front Squat. But even if you mean a Full
Squat, I still don't understand why you're saying they're bad for the
knees. Your examples listed are saying just the opposite. Plus, most
people can't do a front squat with anywhere near the weight of a
convention squat with the bar on their back. So this will place even
less stress on the knees.

Now, there may be something to the wrist shoulder thing, but I believe
that's also mostly a factor of things like flexibility and properly
resting the bar on your shoulders, no?

It's a technique that can be learned by most people but if you try it,
your initial reaction will probably be like most people's, which is, "my
body doesn't bend that way."

-S-
http://www.kbnj.com

Steve Freides said:

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
-snip-

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

By FS, I assume you mean a Front Squat. But even if you mean a Full
Squat, I still don't understand why you're saying they're bad for the
knees. Your examples listed are saying just the opposite. Plus, most
people can't do a front squat with anywhere near the weight of a
convention squat with the bar on their back. So this will place even
less stress on the knees.

Now, there may be something to the wrist shoulder thing, but I believe
that's also mostly a factor of things like flexibility and properly
resting the bar on your shoulders, no?

Yes, FS=front squat. I don't think squats (front or rear) need to be
bad for the knees. I think that partial rear squats and high front
squats are likely to be worse for the knees than competition-level
powerlifting rear squats (or lower) and deep front squats. But
everything depends on a bunch of factors.
http://www.exrx.net/ExInfo/Squats.html
I think that partial squats can be safe and productive, especially if
one also does deeper ones with the proper technique.

I do hack squats with a kettlebell where my knees extend in front of
my toes and I'm on the balls of my feet. That technique would be
disastrous with a heavy BB, but it's fine with the 53 and 71 lb KBs
I use. Even so, I'd never recommend a KB hack squat to someone with
bad knees.

I haven't figured out a way to do the kb hack squat without bothering my
knees yet. It's a cool exercise but, at least for me, all the hamstring
tension in more conventional squats seems to stabilize my knees. I've
had knee problems in the past and started having them again when I
started doing the kb hack squat so I've put it on the back burner for
now.

My knees are OK and KB hack squats don't hurt them, but no other
exercise I've ever done makes me feel stress in my knees like the KB
hack squat. (Note that this comment comes from someone who never
squats ATTG.) I'm currently doing singles with the 71 pounder. I sink
pretty deep, but I use what I'm feeling in my knees to tell me when to
stop going lower.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I can't FS what I can rear squat (both numbers are laughably light).
Still, don't underestimate the knee-extension component of a FS. In a
FS "the bar is being held in front of your body and is supported by
your upper chest and front delts. This reduces hip involvement while
increasing the knee-extension component and involvement of the spinal
erectors. Besides providing the most control over the bar, racking
the bar in this manner also allows you to squeeze out more weight and
more reps."
http://www.gymaddiction.com/exercises/quads.html#front

When I front squat, my body is more upright and I feel like there's less
work for my spinal erectors because my spine is basically straight up
and down - it's when you're bent forward that you've got more work to do
in resisting the weight trying to bend you over at the waist. Can't
comment about the knees as I've never noticed a difference for me there.

It's interesting that you don't experience knee pain doing deep front
squats.

From Kinesiology of Exercise by Michael Yessis: "For greater emphasis
and to place greater stress on the knees, you can perform the front
squat exercise..."

According to http://www.gymaddiction.com/exercises/quads.html#front
there's greater involvement of the spinal erectors and the knee
extension component in the FS. You think this is inaccurate or do you
think that you don't experience pain doing deep FSs because of your
hamstring strength and flexibility?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I've read different recommendations for FS depth. For example, Marty
Gallagher wrote that for the FS, one should "squat down slowly to a
point where the tops of thighs are parallel to the floor..." (Muscle
Media, Oct 2003, p. 26). Pavel Tsatsouline, on the other hand, wrote:
"A note on the front squat depth: Always go rock bottom. For reasons
that are too complex to be discussed in a concise FAQ section,
high-front squats are too rough on the knees." (Muscle Media, May
2003, p.93)

Marty is mostly about PL competition, while Pavel's focus is broader.

That may be, but I don't fully get it. PLing is all about limit
strength and Pavel is all over that subject (albeit not exclusively).

Did Pavel ever explain his reasons for thinking that high front squats
are too rough on the knees? And what is a "high" FS? Anything above
rock bottom or a partial squat above parallel?

Marty (as you know but others reading this thread might not) endorses
Pavel's approach and wrote the introduction to Pavel's first KB book.
I took Marty's quote from Muscle Media (a defunct mag that, as far as
I know, wasn't aimed at competitive powerlifters). Based on Marty's
experience and credentials, I have to think that he wouldn't
deliberately endorse a technique (FS-ing to parallel) that has a good
chance of leading to injury.

"John Hanson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Sat, 30 Apr 2005 13:40:36 -0400, "Steve Freides"
<[email hidden]> wrote in misc.fitness.weights:

Quoted message said:

Either way, my point is that holding the weight in front of you is
more
like moving most stuff.

And you don't hold the weight in front of you while deadlifting?

Hey, I'm about as big a fan of deadlifting as exists. My point was
mainly to compare the front squat to the back squat, not to the
deadlift.

-S-
http://www.kbnj.com

Steve Freides said:

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
-snip-

Quoted message said:

The debate continues with respect to squat depth and risk of knee
injury with the rear squat.

Not it my mind - full squats are good for the knees, period.

OK and that's what's been said by many informed MFWers
(most of whom are no longer active here). I'll keep an open mind and
follow the ongoing technical discussion.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The front squat has been described as an
exercise that puts greater stress on the knees than the rear squat.
As someone who respects Pavel, I'd like to know exactly why he thinks
that rock bottom is the way to go with FSs and what, in his opinion,
constitutes a "high" FS.

Ping him on DD and ask him.

Good idea.

On Mon, 02 May 2005 11:01:49 GMT, [email hidden] wrote in
misc.fitness.weights:

Quoted message said:

John Hanson said:

On Sun, 01 May 2005 21:37:28 GMT, [email hidden] wrote in
misc.fitness.weights:

Quoted message said:

On Sun, 01 May 2005 11:55:38 -0500, John Hanson
<[email hidden]> wrote:

>On Sat, 30 Apr 2005 12:52:37 -0400, "Steve Freides"
><[email hidden]> wrote in misc.fitness.weights:
>
>><[email hidden]> wrote in message
>>news:[email hidden]...
>>> On Fri, 29 Apr 2005 20:31:27 -0500, Proton Soup <[email hidden]>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Fri, 29 Apr 2005 16:16:29 -0400, frank-in-toronto
>>>><[email hidden]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On Fri, 29 Apr 2005 02:59:36 GMT, [email hidden] wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>On Thu, 28 Apr 2005 17:03:00 -0400, frank-in-toronto
>>>>>><[email hidden]> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>We have a kettlebell guy coming to the gym next week. He'll be
>>>>>>>giving 2 introductory classes and then most likely we'll set
>>>>>>>up a series of 8.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>What should I be looking for? I want to get as much out of
>>>>>>>this as I can.
>>>>>>>...thehick
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Apart from the humor value (such as it is), pay no attention to the
>>>>>>first three responses you received.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>If you want an informed response, Steve is the only person currently
>>>>>>active on this ng who can supply it. To try for more than one
>>>>>>informed response, post your question at
>>>>>>http://forum.dragondoor.com/training/
>>>>>>
>>>>>>In addition, you might get some ideas by reading articles at
>>>>>>http://www.dragondoor.com/articler/mode2/Kettlebells
>>>>>i'll be checking the dragondoor site and others. i'm interested
>>>>>in the functional strength aspect mostly. i'm not trying
>>>>>to add weight (in fact, losing a little wouldn't hurt
>>>>>my running), but I would like to be stronger. If i can
>>>>>get some short (time-wise) exercises out of this,
>>>>>I'll be very pleased.
>>>>>thanks for the suggestions...thehick
>>>>
>>>>Powerlifters are said to make good furniture movers. Doesn't get much
>>>>more practical than that.
>>>
>>> What's the technique for lowering the weight during a deadlift?
>>> Oh, ok, put the piano down over there.
>>
>>FWIW, I think the front squat is the movement with the most carryover to
>>moving furniture, shrubs, etc. Probably a sandbag front squat at that,
>>but a barbell or 2-kb front squat isn't bad.
>>
>I think you're wrong.

OK, I'm sort of interested in this. What kind of strength and
conditioning training would be good for a furniture mover? Let me be
more specific. You're the top or the bottom guy moving a couch,
bureau, dresser drawer, and a mattress up and down stairs.

Farmer walks would probably be the best followed by deadlifts.

Good choices!

You wouldn't add some type of lift(s) where the back is slightly
rounded (sandbags and/or something else) and something where the knees
are bent to a greater or lesser degree during the duration of the lift
(while going up and down stairs), and some kind of exercise which
requires you to lift at odd angles or in less than ideal leverage
positions?

I would add book lifting. Lots of them and with many different
subjects. Then I would get certified and/or degreed and would find a
better career.

John Hanson said:

On Mon, 02 May 2005 11:01:49 GMT, [email hidden] wrote in
misc.fitness.weights:

Quoted message said:

John Hanson said:

On Sun, 01 May 2005 21:37:28 GMT, [email hidden] wrote in
misc.fitness.weights:

>On Sun, 01 May 2005 11:55:38 -0500, John Hanson
><[email hidden]> wrote:
>
>>On Sat, 30 Apr 2005 12:52:37 -0400, "Steve Freides"
>><[email hidden]> wrote in misc.fitness.weights:
>>
>>><[email hidden]> wrote in message
>>>news:[email hidden]...
>>>> On Fri, 29 Apr 2005 20:31:27 -0500, Proton Soup <[email hidden]>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On Fri, 29 Apr 2005 16:16:29 -0400, frank-in-toronto
>>>>><[email hidden]> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>On Fri, 29 Apr 2005 02:59:36 GMT, [email hidden] wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>On Thu, 28 Apr 2005 17:03:00 -0400, frank-in-toronto
>>>>>>><[email hidden]> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>We have a kettlebell guy coming to the gym next week. He'll be
>>>>>>>>giving 2 introductory classes and then most likely we'll set
>>>>>>>>up a series of 8.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>What should I be looking for? I want to get as much out of
>>>>>>>>this as I can.
>>>>>>>>...thehick
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Apart from the humor value (such as it is), pay no attention to the
>>>>>>>first three responses you received.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>If you want an informed response, Steve is the only person currently
>>>>>>>active on this ng who can supply it. To try for more than one
>>>>>>>informed response, post your question at
>>>>>>>http://forum.dragondoor.com/training/
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>In addition, you might get some ideas by reading articles at
>>>>>>>http://www.dragondoor.com/articler/mode2/Kettlebells
>>>>>>i'll be checking the dragondoor site and others. i'm interested
>>>>>>in the functional strength aspect mostly. i'm not trying
>>>>>>to add weight (in fact, losing a little wouldn't hurt
>>>>>>my running), but I would like to be stronger. If i can
>>>>>>get some short (time-wise) exercises out of this,
>>>>>>I'll be very pleased.
>>>>>>thanks for the suggestions...thehick
>>>>>
>>>>>Powerlifters are said to make good furniture movers. Doesn't get much
>>>>>more practical than that.
>>>>
>>>> What's the technique for lowering the weight during a deadlift?
>>>> Oh, ok, put the piano down over there.
>>>
>>>FWIW, I think the front squat is the movement with the most carryover to
>>>moving furniture, shrubs, etc. Probably a sandbag front squat at that,
>>>but a barbell or 2-kb front squat isn't bad.
>>>
>>I think you're wrong.
>
>OK, I'm sort of interested in this. What kind of strength and
>conditioning training would be good for a furniture mover? Let me be
>more specific. You're the top or the bottom guy moving a couch,
>bureau, dresser drawer, and a mattress up and down stairs.
>
Farmer walks would probably be the best followed by deadlifts.

Good choices!

You wouldn't add some type of lift(s) where the back is slightly
rounded (sandbags and/or something else) and something where the knees
are bent to a greater or lesser degree during the duration of the lift
(while going up and down stairs), and some kind of exercise which
requires you to lift at odd angles or in less than ideal leverage
positions?

I would add book lifting. Lots of them and with many different
subjects. Then I would get certified and/or degreed and would find a
better career.

Ha! ok, but what if someone wants to move furniture to make enough
money to buy the books he needs to get certified/degreed in a more
lucrative career or profession? And let's add he doesn't want to get
seriously injured while moving that mattress or bureau up and down the
stairs?

There's no books or research on this topic (that I know of anyway) so
this is an exercise in thinking creatively.

Steve Freides said:

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
-snip-

Quoted message said:

The debate continues with respect to squat depth and risk of knee
injury with the rear squat.

Not it my mind - full squats are good for the knees, period.

Quoted message said:

The front squat has been described as an
exercise that puts greater stress on the knees than the rear squat.
As someone who respects Pavel, I'd like to know exactly why he thinks
that rock bottom is the way to go with FSs and what, in his opinion,
constitutes a "high" FS.

Ping him on DD and ask him.

-S-
http://www.kbnj.com

I'm satisfied with the response Pavel gave me
http://forum.dragondoor.com/training/message/333502/

"...have you noticed that full SQs don't build adductors nearly as
much as parallel SQs?

You deccelerate the load in the parallel back SQ with the hamstrings
and adductors. In the narrow FSQ they do not have the leverage (the
knees are way fwd because you cannot sit way back without dropping the
BB) and hence the knee stress. If you go all the way, hams to calves,
the decel. stress is spread out, not localized in the knees.

Another option is to FSQ to parallel in a wider stance. The shins
become more vertical and the hams and adductors get in on the action.
This is probably what Marty (Gallagher) wrote about."

I'll use this "FS to parallel in a wider stance" option.

frank-in-toronto said:

Quoted message said:

frank-in-toronto said:

We have a kettlebell guy coming to the gym next week. He'll be
giving 2 introductory classes and then most likely we'll set
up a series of 8.

What should I be looking for? I want to get as much out of
this as I can.
...thehick

...

Quoted message said:

In addition, you might get some ideas by reading articles at
http://www.dragondoor.com/articler/mode2/Kettlebells

I've been reading about kettlebells for a long time, so today's
intro class was very interesting. As usual there was too
much marketing-speak:
(like, it's aerobic, replaces a whole room-full of equipment,
cures tendonitis & carpal tunnel, even builds lean muscle,
also, builds flexibility!!!)

But, there look to be some good points. It's full body, it's core,
It builds what-i-like-to-think-of as functional strength.
Something that carries thru to the real world where you have
to lift a bloody-heavy TV and it doesn't have handles.

I was doing some reverse axe chops on the lower pulley
of our adjustable pulley machine. Similar to the first
exercise we were shown (KB Swings). I could see
doing this at home outside. Very little equipment required.
and if you drop it, it doesn't matter. The drawback is that
the bells are too expensive for me to justify.

Now, at the gym, it would depend on your goals. For absolute
strength (benching or squatting), this wouldn't be my choice.
But as a bit of cross-training on those days where I'm
tight for time, it'll be OK.
...thehick

Sounds about right to me except the part about curing tendonitis and
carpal tunnel. Where'd the trainer get that from?

Kbells are expensive, but so is a lot of other good strength-building
equipment. I own three Kbells (actually two - my wife owns one).
In time I'll probably get another from uskettlebells.com because it's
adjustable (9 weights from 35 to 70.5 lbs) and round. $200 including
S&H. Maybe I'll wait until they come out with something that gives it
an additional weight of 88 pounds. (Truth is the weights I have now
are more than enough of a challenge for me.)

Barbells, dumbbells, and kettlebells have handles so lift big rocks
and/or a sandbag (in addition to deadlifting) if you want to get in
shape for hoisting a monster TV. Yes, I understand your point about
"core" training and "functional" strength. Free-weight training will
give you that.

You're right that you wouldn't work out with Kbells alone to build
limit strength. Still, you if you look back at the "Vegan
Bodybuilders" thread starting 4/4/05, you can read arguments for
incorporating Kbells into a limit strength building program.

romOn Tue, 03 May 2005 20:05:37 -0400, frank-in-toronto

Quoted message said:

On Tue, 03 May 2005 23:20:49 GMT, [email hidden] wrote:
...

Quoted message said:

Sounds about right to me except the part about curing tendonitis and
carpal tunnel. Where'd the trainer get that from?

Oh. I knew the cure-all approach was coming and I find
it easy to disregard. If I listened to that, I'd have the
Chuck Norris machine here at home.

...

Quoted message said:

Barbells, dumbbells, and kettlebells have handles so lift big rocks
and/or a sandbag (in addition to deadlifting) if you want to get in
shape for hoisting a monster TV.

hmmm. I think for home that sandbag stuff is interesting. I'll hit
the army surplus store this week and see if I can get a duffle bag.

Excerpt from http://www.maxercise.com/maxarticles/max-articles3.html

"Stop by an army surplus store for the canvas bags. To make sure the
bags are strong enough, double them up. You will also need to put some
plastic trash bags inside so the sand doesn't leak out of the bags.
Again, double them up.

You can make these bags a variety of weights. . . . When you fill them
with sand, don't pack them too tight. Loosely packed bags are a
greater challenge. Furthermore, when there is room at the top of the
bag, you can always add more sand later or even barbell plates.

Quoted message said:

anyway, the kettlebells look interesting. A bit of a drawback is
there is lots of chance for injury. Being ballistic and all.
Gotta be careful.
...thehick

Beware of falling free weights - especially if you're under them.

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

romOn Tue, 03 May 2005 20:05:37 -0400, frank-in-toronto

Quoted message said:

On Tue, 03 May 2005 23:20:49 GMT, [email hidden] wrote:
...

Quoted message said:

Sounds about right to me except the part about curing tendonitis and
carpal tunnel. Where'd the trainer get that from?

Oh. I knew the cure-all approach was coming and I find
it easy to disregard. If I listened to that, I'd have the
Chuck Norris machine here at home.

...

Quoted message said:

Barbells, dumbbells, and kettlebells have handles so lift big rocks
and/or a sandbag (in addition to deadlifting) if you want to get in
shape for hoisting a monster TV.

hmmm. I think for home that sandbag stuff is interesting. I'll hit
the army surplus store this week and see if I can get a duffle bag.

Excerpt from http://www.maxercise.com/maxarticles/max-articles3.html

"Stop by an army surplus store for the canvas bags. To make sure the
bags are strong enough, double them up. You will also need to put some
plastic trash bags inside so the sand doesn't leak out of the bags.
Again, double them up.

You can make these bags a variety of weights. . . . When you fill them
with sand, don't pack them too tight. Loosely packed bags are a
greater challenge. Furthermore, when there is room at the top of the
bag, you can always add more sand later or even barbell plates.

Wiggy, the guy who authored the "Singles and Doubles" book, has a
slightly different method which I'm now using - very time consuming but
very flexible. You place about 1-1/3 cups of sand into a zip-lock
sandwich baggie, which will weigh about one pound. You then duct tape
so that you end up with a little sand brick. Place three of these into
a gallon zip-lock bag, place those into your duffel. I'm still getting
mine together but it should be pretty indestructable and almost
infinitely adjustable as well when it's done.

-S-
http://www.kbnj.com

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

anyway, the kettlebells look interesting. A bit of a drawback is
there is lots of chance for injury. Being ballistic and all.
Gotta be careful.
...thehick

Beware of falling free weights - especially if you're under them.