General fitness, health and nutrition · Public discussion

Is Biological Informational (Morphic) Field Plausible??

Started by Cinquirer · · Last activity · 5 posts · 362 views

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30 December 2003
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Cinquirer
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  1. I've been wondering if an informational field (some called it morphic field) is behind the blueprint
    of biological growth and repair or if purely biochemical mechanism is enough to explain ALL
    biological process.

    Dr. Robert Becker, a pioneer in regeneration and its relationship to electrical current in living
    things, wrote a book over a decade ago called "The Body Electric: Electromagnetism and the
    Foundation of Life" and asked whether some kind of morphogenetic field in-forms the
    biological process.

    If anyone knows or can point researches that describe in detail or show mathematical model of how
    biological and biochemical process alone can produce a human being from a single fertilized cell
    with all the intermediate steps of differentiation into the different tissues, organs, bones and
    their right placement and growth. Let me know and I'll throw away the belief of the possibility of
    informational fields in living things.

    In the following is a short excerpt of how Dr. Becker got puzzled about how their placement occurs
    without morphogenetic field. Since the book was written in 1985, Many updates have likely occured.
    So if you know of any, let me know and I'd give up the belief in the possibility and necessity of
    informational field in organizing the physical expression of living.

    Quoting Dr. Becker:

    "The salaniander, directly descended from the evolutionary prototype of all land vertebrates, is a
    marvelously complex animal, almost as complicated as a human. Its forelimb is basically the same as
    ours. Yet all its interrelated parts grow back in the proper order-the same interlocking bones and
    muscles, all the delicate wrist bones, the coordinated fingers - and they're wired together with the
    proper nerve and blood vessel connections.

    The sarne day the limb is cut off, debris from dead cells is carried away in the bloodstream. Then
    some of the intact tissue begins to die back a short distance from the wound. During the first two
    or three days, cells of the epidermis-the outer layer of skin-begin to proliferate and migrate
    inwardly covering the wound surface. The epidermis then thickens over the apex of the stump into a
    transparent tissue called the apical cap. This stage is finished in about a week.

    By then, the blastema, the little ball of undifferentiated cells described by Morgan, has started to
    appear beneath the apical cap. This is the "organ" of regeneration, forming on the wound like a
    miniature embryo and very similar to the embryonic limb bud that gave rise to the leg in the first
    place. Its cells are totipotent, able to develop into all the different kinds of cells needed to
    reconstitute the limb.

    The blastema is ready in about two weeks. Even as it's forming, the cells at its outer edge start
    dividing rapidly, changing the blastema's shape to a cone and providing a steady source of raw material-
    new cells-for growth* After about three weeks, the blastema cells at the inner edge begin to
    differentiate into specialized types and arrange themselves into tissues, beginning with a cartilage
    collar around the old bone shaft. other tissues then form, and the new limb-beginning with a
    characteristic paddle shape that will become the hand-appears as though our of a mist. The elbow and
    long parts of the limb coalesce behind the hand, and the regrowth is complete (except for some
    slight enlargement) then the four digits reappear after about eight weeks.

    This process, exquisitely beautiful and seemingly simple, is full of problems for biology. What
    organizes the growth? What is the control factor? How does the blastema "know" that it must make a
    foreleg instead of a bind leg? (The salamander never makes a mistake.) How does all the information
    about the missing parts get to these undifferentiated cells, telling them what to become, which
    genes to activate, what protelns to make, where to position themselves? It's as if a pile of bricks
    were to spontaneousl y rearrange itself into a building, becoming not only walls but windows, light
    sockets, steel beams, and furniture in the process.

    Answers were sought by transplanting the blastema to other positions on the animal. The experiments
    only made matters worse. If the blastema was moved within five to seven days after it first
    appeared, and grafted near the hind leg, it grew into a second hind leg, even though it came from
    an amputated foreleg. Well, that was okay. The body could be divided into "spheres of influence- or
    "organizational territories," each of which contained information on the local anatomy. A blastema
    put into a hind-limb territory naturally became a hind limb. This was an attractive theory, but
    unfounded. Exactly what did this territory consist of? No one knew. To make matters worse, it was
    then found that transplantation of a slightly older blastema from a foreleg stump to a hind-limb
    area produced a foreleg. The young blastema knew where it was; the older one knew where it had
    been! Somehow this pinhead of primitive cells with absolutely no distinguishing characteristics
    contained enough information t o build a complete foreleg, no matter where it was placed. How? We
    still don't know.

    One attempt at an answer was the idea of a morphogenetic field, advanced by Paul Weiss in the 1930s
    and developed by H. V. Bronsted in the 1950s. Morphogenesis means "origin of form," and the field
    idea was simply an attempt to get closer to the control factor by reformulating the problem."

    ---------
    end quote (Note: a similar "morphogenetic field" thesis has been put up by Sheldrake see

  2. cinquirer <[email hidden]> wrote or quoted:

    Quoted message said:

    I've been wondering if an informational field (some called it morphic field) is behind the
    blueprint of biological growth and repair or if purely biochemical mechanism is enough to explain
    ALL biological process.

    It seems you are classifying the morphic field as not biochemical in nature.

    I can't see why you would want to do that. Are not most morphic fields realised using chemical
    gradients in tissues?
    --
    __________
    |im |yler timtyler.orgtimtyler.org [email hidden] Remove lock to reply.

  3. cinquirer said:

    I've been wondering if an informational field (some called it morphic field) is behind the
    blueprint of biological growth and repair or if purely biochemical mechanism is enough to explain
    ALL biological process.

    Dr. Robert Becker, a pioneer in regeneration and its relationship to electrical current in living
    things, wrote a book over a decade ago called "The Body Electric: Electromagnetism and the
    Foundation of Life" and asked whether some kind of morphogenetic field in-forms the biological
    process.

    If anyone knows or can point researches that describe in detail or show mathematical model of how
    biological and biochemical process alone can produce a human being from a single fertilized cell
    with all the intermediate steps of differentiation into the different tissues, organs, bones and
    their right placement and growth. Let me know and I'll throw away the belief of the possibility of
    informational fields in living things.


    Embryo research has mostly been performed with insects, birds and the worm C. elegans. The basic
    principles (pattern formation along a chemical gradient, etc.) are being elucidated. However, the
    growth of a human is a very complicated story which still has quite a few gaps and which is not
    finished at birth.

    ...

    Quoted message said:

    Somehow this pinhead of primitive cells with absolutely no distinguishing characteristics
    contained enough information t o build a complete foreleg, no matter where it was placed. How? We
    still don't know.


    yes, one tends to feel the wonder of life.

    Quoted message said:

    One attempt at an answer was the idea of a morphogenetic field, advanced by Paul Weiss in the
    1930s and developed by H. V. Bronsted in the 1950s. Morphogenesis means "origin of form," and the
    field idea was simply an attempt to get closer to the control factor by reformulating the
    problem."


    Well, this attempt appears to be a very simplified approach to a complicated story. For the time
    being, biochemistry really is all you need in order to describe both, the regeneration and
    embryogenesis.

    For example, it can be shown that the growing neuronal tissue initially involves much more neurons
    than are actually kept. Only those neurons which find their targets (signalling cells) are
    maintained, the rest dies by means of a controlled mechanism. It is not known beforehand, which
    neurons will make contact. A field idea could not take into account such plasticicity but would
    rather demand a rigid pattern by which every cell has a given future.

    Viele Gruesse Heino

  4. "cinquirer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

    Quoted message said:


    I've been wondering if an informational field (some called it morphic field) is behind the
    blueprint of biological growth and repair or if purely biochemical mechanism is enough to explain
    ALL biological process.


    There's no evidence for any non-biochemical mechanisms at cellular level. Thought is a biological
    process and since we know very little about thought we can't absolutely rule out some fundamental
    physical principle underlying it that the physicists don't understand yet. However no-one has
    demonstrated why this unknown physical principle, if it exists, should be a "morphic field".

    Quoted message said:


    [ salamnder limb regeneration ]

    Quoted message said:

    This process, exquisitely beautiful and seemingly simple, is full of problems for biology. What
    organizes the growth? What is the control factor? How does the blastema "know" that it must make a
    foreleg instead of a bind leg? (The salamander never makes a mistake.) Answers were sought by
    transplanting the blastema to other positions on the animal. The experiments only made matters
    worse. ... To make matters worse, it was then found that transplantation of a slightly older
    blastema from a foreleg stump to a hind-limb area produced a foreleg.


    No we don't know exactly how cells communicate with each other to produce a multi-cellular animal.
    However the fact that salamander limb buds can be persuaded to build a foreleg instead of a hind leg
    if transplanted late enough indicates that the cell as been "switched" to a foreleg bud. There is no
    reason to suppose this switch is anything other than a chemical signal.

    Quoted message said:


    One attempt at an answer was the idea of a morphogenetic field, advanced by Paul Weiss in the
    1930s and developed by H. V. Bronsted in the 1950s. Morphogenesis means "origin of form," and the
    field idea was simply an attempt to get closer to the control factor by reformulating the
    problem."


    The problem is we don't know what the "morphogenic field" consists of, and we don't have a class of
    phenomena that _require_ a morphogenic field, as opposed to it just being a competing explanation
    (eg salmander limb buds might be switched chemically, or morphogenically).

    We know that the testis-determining factor, a single gene at the tip of the Y-chromosome, determines
    whether the body develops into a male or a female. We don't know what mechanisms are involved.

    Now if this had been discovered in the sixteenth century, I might have proposed the
    following argument.

    "It is significant that we call it the "Y" chromosome. "Y" is the English equivalent of the Herew
    letter Yodh, which is the first letter of the divine name, and taken in Kabbalah to represent God.
    Now Yodh is the smallest Hebrew letter, just as Y is the smallest of all chromosomes. Now what is
    God but the masculine force? He is He who is. Therefore the smallest tip of the smallest chromosome
    is a divine factor that makes a human into a man."

    Today of course theists and non-theists alike would agree that reality isn't structured like that.
    It is the same thing with the morphogenic field. The gene may bind to DNA, it may cause hormones to
    be produced, or there may be some similar function. It won't resonate with the masculine principle
    of the morphogenic field.

  5. Tim Tyler said:

    cinquirer <[email hidden]> wrote or quoted:

    Quoted message said:

    I've been wondering if an informational field (some called it morphic field) is behind the
    blueprint of biological growth and repair or if purely biochemical mechanism is enough to explain
    ALL biological process.

    It seems you are classifying the morphic field as not biochemical in nature.

    I can't see why you would want to do that. Are not most morphic fields realised using chemical
    gradients in tissues?

    The current (November) issue of _Scientific American_ has an interesting article (The Unseen Genome)
    describing new discoveries about introns and "junk DNA". Apparently there are numerous hidden genes
    that don't code for protein but work through RNA and are supposed to play a major role in the health
    and development of plants and animals. Active forms of RNA also help to regulate an epigenetic layer
    of heritable information in the chromosome but outside the DNA sequence. John S Mattick, director of
    the Institute for Molecular Bioscience at the University of Queensland, is quoted as saying that so-
    called junk DNA may turn out to be the very basis of human complexity. Pretty revolutionary stuff if
    this article is to be believed; a further article is promised for next month.

    AC

    --
    Using Linux GNU/Debian - Windows-free zone acampbell.org.ukacampbell.org.uk (book reviews and articles)
    Email: replace "www." with "ac@"

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