I blew it!

The Real Bev said:

I've long wondered what rocking back and forth does. Explanation
please?

When standing, you need to counteract the torque that would
otherwise knock the bike over towards the downward pushing foot. You
can try to hold the bike upright, but that requires using
substantial arm muscle to counteract the torque. It's much easier to
lean the bike slightly away from the downard pushing foot, using the
lean to offset the torque, since this requires almost no arm muscle.
--
terry morse Palo Alto, CA http://bike.terrymorse.com/

"Roger Zoul" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

R15757 wrote:
|| Roger Zoul wrote:
||
|| <snip tale of massive cramp>
||
|| Roger,
||
|| Water! That's all you needed there man. Of course by the time you
|| got the cramp it was too late. You need to drink more water, before,
|| after, during the ride.
||
|| Robert

Perhaps. I didn't feel overly thirsty and I had drank before the ride and
at the 15-mile point too. But who knows if I had enough. Interesting,
when I got back to the start inthe sag wagon I noticed that I had even
worked up my usual sweat -- I'm usually sweating down the front so badly
that I look like someone spilled a lot of water on my belly. I think
drinking more it something to try....

There's a decent article on leg cramps at
http://sportsmedicine.about.com/cs/leg_injuries/a/leg8.htm. To quote:
"Heat, dehydration and electrolyte depletion: Muscle cramps are more
likely when you exercise in hot weather because sweat drains your
body's fluids, salt and minerals (i.e., potassium, magnesium and
calcium). Loss of these nutrients may also cause a muscle to spasm."

For potassium, a lot of cyclists eat bananas (hence the banana peels
which decorate the sides of popular bike routes) and some people eat
raisins. For salt/electrolytes, people tend to go for sports drinks.
You'll want to experiment, though, since everybody's tummy reacts to
exercise a bit differently.

-BC

"Terry Morse" wrote: (clip) lean the bike slightly away from the downard
pushing foot, using the lean to offset the torque, since this requires
almost no arm muscle.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Draw a line through the wheel contacts with the ground. If the force
through the pedal goes through this line, there is no torque trying to tip
the bike. Tipping the bike aims the force toward this line.

The reason this is not an issue when you are seated is the torque is
absorbed through the contact of the seat with your butt, and you don't
notice it. When you are standing, the torque has to be balanced by an
upward pull on the handlebar, which naturally tends to tip the bike and
reduce the force.

Pbwalther said:

Quoted message said:

I've long wondered what rocking back and forth does. Explanation

Quoted message said:

please?

Quoted message said:

By standing, you add a good amount of body weight to the downstroke.
By 'pulling the handlebar up' on the same side, you can also use the
arm and shoulder to help push the leg down.

Quoted message said:

But all this downward force on one side of the bike wouldn't work if
you didn't tilt the bike in the opposite direction. Reverse and
repeat, and the bike goes rocking back and forth.

Good explanation.

I have found that on very steep hills, I can get out of the saddle and my pedal
will not budge and I have to rock the bike and use my upper body to turn over
the pedals. Now I am talking about very steep (right around 20%).

I really do not keep that sort of thing up for very long.

I think that's why triple chainrings were invented. In my 30/27 low gear
I have little difficulty moving the bike up even 20% grades with my body weight
alone when out of the saddle. I don't go fast when doing this, but I can
keep it up for a while.

The strange thing to me about this conversation is that, when climbing, I
don't often get off the saddle to go faster and it isn't clear to me why
doing this would necessarily help you go faster for a sustained period.
Other than standing for a change of scenery, or to sprint up a very short
hill to keep my momentum, I generally resort to standing on the pedals so
I can go slower. For seated climbing I really like to spin the pedals at
a cadence of about 75 rpm, and I get increasingly uncomfortable as my
cadence drops toward the low 60's. This means that even in my lowest gear
I have trouble getting below about 6 mph while seated. On a 20% grade this
leaves me at a vertical climb rate of over 100 feet/minute, requiring (if
I've done the math right) a power output of over 400 Watts for me to
sustain. I personally can't do this for very long at all.

If I get out of the saddle, however, I find it easy to drop my cadence
significantly, just about as low as I care to. At 40-something rpm, for
example, I'm down to 4 mph, a climb rate of 70 fpm on the 20% grade and
a power requirement (again assuming my math is good) of maybe 275 W. I
can do that for a while.

I'm not a very strong climber but with the granny chainring and a lot of
patience I'm fairly confident I can climb just about anything I'm likely
to find on a paved road. Other than on very short hills, however, getting
out of the saddle doesn't help me climb faster with less effort. It
usually does the opposite.

Dennis Ferguson

Dennis Ferguson said:

If I get out of the saddle, however, I find it easy to drop my cadence
significantly, just about as low as I care to. At 40-something rpm, for
example, I'm down to 4 mph, a climb rate of 70 fpm on the 20% grade and
a power requirement (again assuming my math is good) of maybe 275 W. I
can do that for a while.

I'm not a very strong climber...

If you can maintain 70 ft/min climbing rate, you are a darn good
climber. That's 1280 m/hr.
--
terry morse Palo Alto, CA http://bike.terrymorse.com/

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I have found that on very steep hills, I can get out of the saddle and my

pedal

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

will not budge and I have to rock the bike and use my upper body to turn

over

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the pedals. Now I am talking about very steep (right around 20%).

I think your math is wrong. A 20% hill is extremely steep. I just went up an
8% hill last Saturday and it was really tough.

Pat in TX

Pat said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I have found that on very steep hills, I can get out of the saddle and

my

pedal

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

will not budge and I have to rock the bike and use my upper body to

turn

over

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the pedals. Now I am talking about very steep (right around 20%).

I think your math is wrong. A 20% hill is extremely steep. I just went
up an
8% hill last Saturday and it was really tough.

Pat in TX

Try some rolling hills and you will see why us average types get out
of the saddle. I navigate one section of about 4 miles of
up/down/up/down....
These are only about 30-40 foot rises but coming down one and having
some speed built up it is only natural to want to keep it, so I stand
up and attack the next hill with the momentum I have. This allows me
to keep my speed going uphill and not have to downshit and granny up
each section. As far as a granny gear is concerned I have a 26/39 gear
that is only good for lazy spinning since if I hit it hard I just wheelie
over the back. A 20% hill is where I walk and drag the bike up since
at that point I can't keep the front wheel on the ground. 15% is marginal
and I am not buying that 20% is even possible except maybe on momentum
from a straight or previous downhill. I have some hills (past the rolling
part)
that are about 8% and go for enough miles to get a 1000' elevation gain
and I sure can't attack the whole thing. I gear down and grind up in
a low gear, not granny but low enough not to kill my knees.
Common sense tells me I am not Lance so I don't try to be.
Bill Baka

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Terry Morse said:

Dennis Ferguson said:

example, I'm down to 4 mph, a climb rate of 70 fpm on the 20% grade and

Quoted message said:

If you can maintain 70 ft/min climbing rate, you are a darn good
climber. That's 1280 m/hr.

70 ft/min * 60 min = 4200 ft/hr. Now I'm not a good hill climber
either but 3/4 mph would be difficult even for the best riders. :-)
But I'm pretty sure my legs and lungs would give out on 20%.

--
Linux Home Automation Neil Cherry [email hidden]
http://home.comcast.net/~ncherry/ (Text only)
http://linuxha.sourceforge.net/ (SourceForge)
http://hcs.sourceforge.net/ (HCS II)

Bill Baka said:

A 20% hill is where I walk and drag the bike up since
at that point I can't keep the front wheel on the ground. 15% is marginal
and I am not buying that 20% is even possible except maybe on momentum
from a straight or previous downhill.

Even a 20% hill can be managed in the saddle, with the right gearing
and technique. Too low a gear makes it hard to keep the front wheel
down. Too high a gear puts too much stress on your quads.

To keep the front wheel down while climbing, slide forward on the
saddle and get your chest low--almost touching the bars. If this is
too difficult or still not effective, then standing is the solution.
But when standing, be sure to move your hips back to keep enough
weight on the rear wheel to maintain traction.

I climbed the infamous Big Creek Road (10% average, 20% maximum) on
the recent Climb To Kaiser. I did the whole climb in the saddle,
using a 30/24 gear combination. It was not that difficult.
--
terry morse Palo Alto, CA http://bike.terrymorse.com/

Bill Baka said:

over the back. A 20% hill is where I walk and drag the bike up since
at that point I can't keep the front wheel on the ground. 15% is marginal
and I am not buying that 20% is even possible except maybe on momentum
from a straight or previous downhill.

there's a stretch of 20% fire road up in the boise forest that goes on for
about a mile tho it feels like 10. it's possible but it'll put your leg
vs. lung statement to the test. my lungs, for instance, were screaming and
my heart was pegged. there's no doubt in my mind which my limiting factor
is. i can climb all afternoon and my legs will feel just fine at the rate
my heart allows.
--
david reuteler
[email hidden]

Terry Morse said:

Bill Baka said:

A 20% hill is where I walk and drag the bike up since
at that point I can't keep the front wheel on the ground. 15% is
marginal
and I am not buying that 20% is even possible except maybe on momentum
from a straight or previous downhill.

Even a 20% hill can be managed in the saddle, with the right gearing
and technique. Too low a gear makes it hard to keep the front wheel
down. Too high a gear puts too much stress on your quads.

To keep the front wheel down while climbing, slide forward on the
saddle and get your chest low--almost touching the bars. If this is
too difficult or still not effective, then standing is the solution.
But when standing, be sure to move your hips back to keep enough
weight on the rear wheel to maintain traction.

I climbed the infamous Big Creek Road (10% average, 20% maximum) on
the recent Climb To Kaiser. I did the whole climb in the saddle,
using a 30/24 gear combination. It was not that difficult.
--
terry morse Palo Alto, CA http://bike.terrymorse.com/

Road bike or MTB? My MTB will wheelie over on 20%, maybe because
I have the saddle kind of high, but I have tried and about 15% is
it for me on that bike. I did try a hill of almost 20% a few months
back and when the front wheel came up I wound up in the dirt on
my back along side the road. I landed on my backpack and smooshed
all the food I brought with me. Could have been the 20 pounds of
backpack threw me off. I couldn't even attempt it on my
Schwinn Super Sport since there are no low gears.
Is Big Creek one of those by Big Basin? I have lots of miles riding up
highway 9 from Saratoga to the summit and blasting past cars on the
way back down.
A real challenge is to ride to Mt. Hamilton from Eastridge mall and
go up and over Mt. Day (real steep), then down into the valley and
up to Mt. Hamilton. Coming back the second time over Mt. Day is when
you start to curse that hill, but it is a well spent day of riding.
I think it comes to about 7000 feet of climbing when you add it all up.
I got mad when I was sweating my way up and a hawk just blew me off
riding the hot air up without even beating a wing. It only got real
interesting when a bunch of bees decided to chase me 'uphill'. I found
leg muscles I never knew I had.
Bill Baka

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David Reuteler said:

Bill Baka said:

over the back. A 20% hill is where I walk and drag the bike up since
at that point I can't keep the front wheel on the ground. 15% is
marginal
and I am not buying that 20% is even possible except maybe on momentum
from a straight or previous downhill.

there's a stretch of 20% fire road up in the boise forest that goes on
for
about a mile tho it feels like 10. it's possible but it'll put your leg
vs. lung statement to the test. my lungs, for instance, were screaming
and
my heart was pegged. there's no doubt in my mind which my limiting
factor
is. i can climb all afternoon and my legs will feel just fine at the
rate
my heart allows.

At altitude is where I find my lung limit. I was at the top of the
continental divide at 12,000' and running around with my daughter.
It was OK until I had to piggyback her uphill to the car, then I hit
my lung limit. I haven't had the chance to bike any hills at higher
elevations so I will have to test that theory later. At sea level
or anywhere under 3,000 or 4,000 feet it really is my legs that
limit me. I get my HR to about 170 and only breathing moderately hard
when my legs scream "enough". It feels um 'alive' to have your heart
thumping hard enough to take your pulse without having to actually
find it on your wrist, just feel the thumps.
Beats the heck out of watching someone else have the fun on television.
Bill Baka

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"Terry Morse" wrote: (clip) But when standing, be sure to move your hips
back to keep enough weight on the rear wheel to maintain traction. (clip)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
It also helps to deliberately pull up on the handlebar with each pedal
stroke. This can help prevent wheelspin, but it is a delicate tradeoff ,
because the front will want to float. But, a little front end lift will not
stop you. But, if the hill is both loose and steep, it's almost impossible
to pedal fast enough to keep moving with wheelspin.

"Bill Baka" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Beats the heck out of watching someone else have the fun on television.

Maybe so, but the X Games were great to watch yesterday on TV.

Bill Baka said:

Terry Morse said:

I climbed the infamous Big Creek Road (10% average, 20% maximum) on
the recent Climb To Kaiser. I did the whole climb in the saddle,
using a 30/24 gear combination. It was not that difficult.

Road bike or MTB?

Road bike.

Quoted message said:

My MTB will wheelie over on 20%, maybe because
I have the saddle kind of high, but I have tried and about 15% is
it for me on that bike.

Climbing technique on a MTB is even more tricky, since the traction
is less. The really good riders can climb very steep stuff in the
saddle.

Quoted message said:

Is Big Creek one of those by Big Basin?

No, Big Creek is the one hairy climb on the annual Climb to Kaiser
ride, which starts in Clovis, CA. It climbs up to Huntington Lake,
at about 7000 ft. Here's a profile of the ride:

http://www.actc.org/stories/c2k.jpg

Quoted message said:

A real challenge is to ride to Mt. Hamilton from Eastridge mall and
go up and over Mt. Day (real steep), then down into the valley and
up to Mt. Hamilton. Coming back the second time over Mt. Day is when
you start to curse that hill, but it is a well spent day of riding.

I don't know Mt. Day, but I certainly know Hamilton. The front side
is chopped up with intermediate descents, and it's only about 5%,
but the back side is great. 5 miles at 8%, with not a square foot of
shade. Good hot weather training.
--
terry morse Palo Alto, CA http://bike.terrymorse.com/

Terry Morse said:

Bill Baka said:

Terry Morse wrote:

I don't know Mt. Day, but I certainly know Hamilton. The front side
is chopped up with intermediate descents, and it's only about 5%,
but the back side is great. 5 miles at 8%, with not a square foot of
shade. Good hot weather training.
--
terry morse Palo Alto, CA http://bike.terrymorse.com/

Hamilton used to be an interesting ride just to look at all the cars
that had gone over the side. There were a dozen or so the last time
I rode that hill, all with "old" painted on the uppermost part.
Water is only available at the Smith Creek ranger station and
at the observatory, that I know of. You will never see Mt Day if
you ride from Alum Rock road but it is there, between the middle
valley with the reservoir and the Eastridge area. It adds a 1500'
bump to the ride. I went up Hamilton one time when it snowed just
to get into a snowball fight at the top. Froze on the way down.
Good fun, but it doesn't snow enough these days.
Bill Baka

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Terry Morse said:

Dennis Ferguson said:

If I get out of the saddle, however, I find it easy to drop my cadence
significantly, just about as low as I care to. At 40-something rpm, for
example, I'm down to 4 mph, a climb rate of 70 fpm on the 20% grade and
a power requirement (again assuming my math is good) of maybe 275 W. I
can do that for a while.

I'm not a very strong climber...

If you can maintain 70 ft/min climbing rate, you are a darn good
climber. That's 1280 m/hr.

On a long climb I'm very proud if I can maintain 40 fpm. I've never
seen a chunk of 20% grade that went on for more than a few minutes,
so I don't think I'd want to claim anything beyond that. I also
didn't mean to imply that I actually did 4 mph on those grades, I'm
only guessing. Once I'm standing I can't see my speedometer so
I only know for certain I can go fast enough not to fall over.

Of course, "fast enough not to fall over" isn't that much less than
4 mph in any case, so a 20% grade is going to require close to that
power output no matter what you do.

Dennis Ferguson

Bill Baka said:

Pat said:

I think your math is wrong. A 20% hill is extremely steep. I just went
up an
8% hill last Saturday and it was really tough.

This post didn't arrive on my server, but I can show you the math. The
power required to climb a hill (ignoring everything except that needed
to lift your body and bike) is

P = m g dh/dt

`m' is the mass of the rider plus bike; for me that is 80 kg. `g' is
gravitational acceleration, 9.8 m/s^2. `dh/dt' is the vertical climb
rate. If you climb a 20% hill at 4 mph, the vertical climb rate is
0.8 mph (more or less), or 0.36 m/s. This gives

P = 80 * 9.8 * 0.36 = 280 Watts

This is a high power output, but not science fiction high and not so
bad if you don't have to keep it up for a long time. The biggest
problem with a short 20% hill is fixed by having a gear available to
allow you to pedal 3 or 4 mph at a comfortable cadence.

Quoted message said:

each section. As far as a granny gear is concerned I have a 26/39 gear
that is only good for lazy spinning since if I hit it hard I just wheelie
over the back. A 20% hill is where I walk and drag the bike up since
at that point I can't keep the front wheel on the ground.

If you get out of the saddle on a 20% hill you end up leaning out
over the handle bars with your weight over the front wheel. It won't
come up, and on clean asphalt the back wheel won't spin either. Lifting
the front wheel is something you have to watch for if you climb seated,
but I can't do that anyway.

Quoted message said:

15% is marginal
and I am not buying that 20% is even possible except maybe on momentum
from a straight or previous downhill.

?? My daily ride in California includes a chunk of pavement that my
inclinometer seems to think is 17% or 18%. The first 300 feet of
elevation gain during every ride I do when I'm in Hong Kong is a
(unavoidable) hill with two 17% segments (the signs say 1:6) with a
10% "recovery" segment in between. I huff and puff on these (I almost
lost a lung the very first time I did the latter) but, taken in small
doses, they aren't that bad.

Dennis Ferguson

On 10 Aug 2004 06:09:11 GMT, Dennis Ferguson <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Pat said:

I think your math is wrong. A 20% hill is extremely steep. I just went
up an
8% hill last Saturday and it was really tough.

?? My daily ride in California includes a chunk of pavement that my
inclinometer seems to think is 17% or 18%. The first 300 feet of
elevation gain during every ride I do when I'm in Hong Kong is a
(unavoidable) hill with two 17% segments (the signs say 1:6) with a
10% "recovery" segment in between. I huff and puff on these (I almost
lost a lung the very first time I did the latter) but, taken in small
doses, they aren't that bad.

Dennis Ferguson

You have an inclinometer? Not just the one in your head? Where can I get
one?
If you can gain 300 feet on 2 17% segments and not [censored] out I am jealous
now.
Bill Baka

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Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

15% is marginal
and I am not buying that 20% is even possible except maybe on momentum
from a straight or previous downhill.

?? My daily ride in California includes a chunk of pavement that my
inclinometer seems to think is 17% or 18%. The first 300 feet of
elevation gain during every ride I do when I'm in Hong Kong is a
(unavoidable) hill with two 17% segments (the signs say 1:6) with a
10% "recovery" segment in between. I huff and puff on these (I almost
lost a lung the very first time I did the latter) but, taken in small
doses, they aren't that bad.

I recall during last year's Giro seeing Marco Pantani chase Stephano
Garzelli and Gilberto Simoni up Monte Zoncolan (gradients around 22%).
Those guys were swaying all over their bikes trying to get up the
hill, and Phil Liggett mentioned a race he once witnessed which
included a grade close to 30%. Phil may have been exaggerating, but
he said it felt like his face was just over the pavement. Also a
Google search found this news item from the 2003 Etoile de Bessèges,
which reports a 30% gradient on the Cap Canaille:
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/?id=2003/feb03/feb07news2.

Yikes. I'll stick with 6-10% climbs, thank you very much.

-BC