"hybrid"

Quoted message said:

And here's my main objection to the term: this type of bike was actually there first. Take a look
for example at the "Pneumatic-Tired Safety" from 1898 on the following web page:

You can object all you like as it's a personal matter to you. The fact is, the term is used here and
now and most cycling folk have a good idea what the term currently implies no matter what historical
precedent has been set.

Vernon in Leeds

Quoted message said:

How about "bike". (Not original I'm afraid, Mike Burrows, ISTR). Things that aren't plain "bikes"
get distinguished with an adjective such as "folding", "racing" or "mountain".

Try "byke" as the antiquated spelling suggests a long pedigree

Vernon in Leeds

Quoted message said:

No, both are just synonyms of "hybrid", with the same problems.

<mischief mode>

How about the homonyms:

Hybryd Hibrid Hi-brid Eyebrid Ayebrid Hiybrid

</mischief mode>

Does the name of a bike category affect cyclists lives so much that it has to be debated in as much
depth as the hairdressers [1] who would not release the wheel for public consumption until its
colour had been decided

[1] Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy

Vernon in Leeds

MSeries said:

When mountain bikes came out, about 1986 ?. Folk liked the low gears, flat bars, thumbshifters
offered by a mountain bikes but disliked the fat tyres. I blame Gary Fischer. ;-)

Mmmmmmmm...thumbshifters. I wouldn't use anything else on a mountain bike - which is why mine will
probably stay 7 speed until they stop making cassettes.

"wafflyDIRTYcatLITTERhcsBOX" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Hang on, when I was a kid there were lots of bicycles with sturdy frames, big wide tyres, and
trigger shift gear levers on the (straight) bars

My hybrid has a sturdy but relatively lightweight frame, it doesn't have

big,

Quoted message said:

wide tyres - more like a slightly bigger and slightly chunkier than a

standard

Quoted message said:

road tyre (bit like a cross tyre really) but it does have straight'ish

bars &

Quoted message said:

trigger shifters - oh and it is a step-through, as it's a "woman's frame".

No such thing as a "woman's frame, this is just as much a misnomer as "hybrid".

Graham

It's

Quoted message said:

not as chunky as a mountain bike, and not as slender as a race bike - it's distinctly a hybrid of
the two forms and I have no problem referring to it

as

Quoted message said:

such - having used it on and off-road :-)

Cheers, helen s

~~~~~~~~~~
This is sent from a redundant email Mail sent to it is dumped My correct one can be gleaned from
h*$el***$$n*$d$ot$**s**i$$m*$m$**on**$s$@*$$a**$*ol*$*.*$$c$om*$ by getting rid of the
overdependence on money and fame
~~~~~~~~~~

Andy Koppe said:

Of course you can fit all kinds of things to a bike in order to tailor it to requirements and make
it heavier in the process. But what does that have to do with my point about materials?

If hybrids were lighter now than they used to be *purely* because of lighter materials, we'd expect
Roasdters to me much lighter than this sort of bike from 20 years ago. But it isn't, so it can't be
just down to materials.

Quoted message said:

Again. With a solid frame, 28'' wheels, 35..40mm or thereabouts tires, and flat(ish) handlebar,
the so-called hybrid is a very old concept, which has recently been heavily influenced by mountain
bikes. It never had to be reinvented by combining racer and MTB.

Whether or not it didn't have to be reinvented, it was!

Quoted message said:

It neatly illustrates the problems with the hybrid term, because this kind of bike certainly
doesn't belong into the same category as a "classic" hybrid (aka town bike).

Depends how close you want your categories. 99.9% of the cycling world who are aware of recumbents
classify them all as "recumbents", though mine has far more in common with a Super Galaxy than
either a Brox or the Kingcycle Mango. But a Genesis is still a hybrid to some extent, though it has
far more road racer parentage than anything else. But it is still a mix, and a "town bike" is still
a hybrid but a different mix.

Summary: as long as people say enough for it to be known what they're on about, it doesn't matter.
As Simon Brooke recently pointed out, MTB is a daft term, but OTOH so is his preferred "hill bike"
(there's loads of great singletrack that doesn't involve hills to speak of). But since we all know
what we mean by MTB, does it really matter? My recent objection to "road bike" is it means different
things to different people, and this can be the case with "hybrid" too, but if there's enough
context and qualification it can still be a useful term.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch University of Dundee Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Medical Physics, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK net [email hidden]
dundee.ac.uk~pjclinchOpen ↗

Peter Clinch said:

Quoted message said:

Of course you can fit all kinds of things to a bike in order to tailor it to requirements and
make it heavier in the process. But what does that have to do with my point about materials?

If hybrids were lighter now than they used to be *purely* because of lighter materials, we'd
expect Roasdters to me much lighter than this sort of bike from 20 years ago. But it isn't, so it
can't be just down to materials.

Well, the availability of lighter material doesn't stop anyone from continuing to build traditional
heavy bikes.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Again. With a solid frame, 28'' wheels, 35..40mm or thereabouts tires, and flat(ish) handlebar,
the so-called hybrid is a very old concept, which has recently been heavily influenced by
mountain bikes. It never had to be reinvented by combining racer and MTB.

Whether or not it didn't have to be reinvented, it was!

How do you know? I would have imagined it went something like this. Sometime around 1990 product
managers sat down with their sales numbers and thought:

"Those new MTBs are selling like hotcakes, but our plain old bikes aren't

mountain bikes.

3 or 5 gears look rather puny compared to 18 or 21, so let's put these nice new Shimano groups on
them. Fitting sporty-looking straight handlebars is easy. And when we get the chance, let's think
about changing the frame a bit as well.

To complete the job, we just need a new name. Town bike? Too staid. All Terrain Bike, because you
can use it anywhere? Not bad. Hybrid? Yeah, that's good, sounds cleverish, and it is somewhere
between racer and MTB, isn't it?"

Quoted message said:

Depends how close you want your categories. 99.9% of the cycling world who are aware of recumbents
classify them all as "recumbents", though mine has far more in common with a Super Galaxy than
either a Brox or the Kingcycle Mango.

True enough. I guess the more common an item, the tighter the categories. When one thinks about it,
MTB and racing bike actually have more in common than some recumbents have with each other.

Quoted message said:

But a Genesis is still a hybrid to some extent, though it has far more road racer parentage than
anything else. But it is still a mix, and a "town bike" is still a hybrid but a different mix.

I'd say the "speed bikes" are the true hybrids, because they really were created by taking
components from both racer and MTB.

Quoted message said:

Summary: as long as people say enough for it to be known what they're on about, it doesn't matter.
My recent objection to "road bike" is it means different things to different people, and this can
be the case with "hybrid" too, but if there's enough context and qualification it can still be a
useful term.

Agreed. But it's still a daft name to have been chosen in the first place. Hence the ensuing
confusion of all kinds of fancy names being used for it by different manufacturers now.

Andy

Andy Koppe said:

Well, the availability of lighter material doesn't stop anyone from continuing to build
traditional heavy bikes.

But they're using lighter materials for roadsters. And though they're lighter than they used to be,
they're still not as light as a general "bike" would've managed years ago.

Quoted message said:

"Those new MTBs are selling like hotcakes, but our plain old bikes aren't

Quoted message said:

mountain bikes.

Which is basically reinventing them, even if that *is* the way it happened!

Quoted message said:

But it's still a daft name to have been chosen in the first place.

Not really disagreeing, but it's there and we know what it means, and where the limits on that
meaning get a bit fuzzy.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch University of Dundee Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Medical Physics, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK net [email hidden]
dundee.ac.uk~pjclinchOpen ↗

In article said:

How do you know? I would have imagined it went something like this. Sometime around 1990 product
managers sat down with their sales numbers and thought:

1991. users.globalnet.co.ukraleigh.htmOpen ↗ "Therefore, Rix proposed a
machine that kept the good braking, wide-ratio gears and other MTB advantages but with thinner frame
tubes and tyres that were a compromise between the knobbly wide-section mountain bike tyre and the
lightly treaded narrow-section racing bike tyre. In effect, she devised an improved sports light
roadster with a more modern image."

Simon Brooke said:

They died out, of course, because they weren't as efficient as drop handlebar bikes over any
distance, and they weren't as convenient as step throughs around town...

But a lot of people have just one bike for everything, so where a drop bar bike isn't as comfortable
round town and a step through frame isn't as good for loaded touring you might want something like,
well, a hybrid.

They mainly died out for marketing reasons AFAICT. Raleigh pushed very hard in the UK, back when
they were bordering on a monopoly presence, to get rid of "bikes" in the UK even though they were
still making plenty for export. I know not why, but they did.

Quoted message said:

and now a new generation has to learn that all over again.

You can buy hybrids with step through frames, though if you *just* want a town bike then IMHO it
makes a lot of sense to get a folder. But that's not so good if you fancy a long day ride into the
country and don't want or can't have another bike better suited. And some people just don't like
drop bars. If you want aerodynamic efficiency on a long trip these days and have the money, might as
well get a recumbent. Of course, they don't go off road as well as upright alternatives which might
restrict your tour in out of the way places, so again the case that over-specialising can come back
to bite you.

Hybrid is a neater word than "Compromise bike", though that's what they are. Might not go as fast as
a racer, but carry luggage better. Might not carry luggage as well as a freight bike, but go faster.
Nothing will do *everything* optimally, but lots of people don't have the space, money or
inclination for a fleet of bikes, and even when they do you sometimes want more than one job on a
single trip.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch University of Dundee Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Medical Physics, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK net [email hidden]
dundee.ac.uk~pjclinchOpen ↗

Alan Braggins said:

1991. users.globalnet.co.ukraleigh.htmOpen ↗
"Therefore, Rix proposed a machine that kept the good braking, wide-ratio
gears and other MTB advantages but with thinner frame tubes and tyres
that were a compromise between the knobbly wide-section mountain bike
tyre and the lightly treaded narrow-section racing bike tyre. In effect,
she devised an improved sports light roadster with a more modern image."

Finally an answer to my original question, thanks!

Seems Peter was right then, it was a reinvention. Mrs Rix had been with Raleigh since 1962 though,
so it's a fair bet she would have had the plain old bicycle in mind when creating the hybrid.

Anyway, praise to Mrs Rix for devising a very versatile and practical bike.

It's a shame she didn't introduce a good name for it as well. Another sentence from the article sums
it up nicely: "The UK industry used the term 'hybrid' which was unattractive to customers, giving a
hint of 'neither fish nor fowl'."

Andy

"Andy Koppe" <a n d y @ d c s . e d . a c . u k> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Alan Braggins said:

1991.

users.globalnet.co.ukraleigh.htmOpen ↗

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

"Therefore, Rix proposed a machine that kept the good braking,

wide-ratio

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

gears and other MTB advantages but with thinner frame tubes and tyres that were a compromise
between the knobbly wide-section mountain bike tyre and the lightly treaded narrow-section
racing bike tyre. In

effect,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

she devised an improved sports light roadster with a more modern

image."

Quoted message said:

Finally an answer to my original question, thanks!

Seems Peter was right then, it was a reinvention. Mrs Rix had been with Raleigh since 1962 though,
so it's a fair bet she would have had the plain old bicycle in mind when creating the hybrid.

Anyway, praise to Mrs Rix for devising a very versatile and practical

bike.

I'm sceptical about Mrs Rix's contribution to this. I have a bike that fits the above description
just about exactly. It's called an Emmelle Cougar and I bought it second hand in 1990. I did many
miles on it, primarily commuting from West Bridgford to Nottingham University in 1990 and 1991.
Perhaps Mrs Rix saw me?

Michael MacClancy

Andy Koppe <a n d y @ d c s . e d . a c . u k> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

And here's my main objection to the term: this type of bike was actually there first. Take a look
for example at the "Pneumatic-Tired Safety" from 1898 on the following web page:

pedalinghistory.comPHbikbio.htmOpen ↗

"The bicycle was what made the Gay Ninties gay". So it wasn't the invention of Alcopop, then?

Quoted message said:

My point is, this type of bike has been around for ages. Road and mountain bikes were developed
later as special-purpose variations on the same theme. It just doesn't make sense to describe the
original as a hybrid of its own descendants.

Why's it got to make sense? Anyways, you could always call them "City" bikes, or VTC (Velo
Tout Chemin)

Colin Blackburn said:

Quoted message said:

My point is, this type of bike has been around for ages. Road and mountain bikes were developed
later as special-purpose variations on the same theme. It just doesn't make sense to describe the
original as a hybrid of its own descendants.

Well, the name is confusing but a modern "hybrid" is not the same as a classic roadster.

Of course there are differences, but it's still the same idea: heavy but solid frame, 28 inch
wheels, flat(ish) handlebar, medium-width tyres.

Why do you see the "hybrid" as something more different? Did they actually stop selling this type of
bike in the UK or US at some point during the MTB boom, only to reinvent it a little later?

In Germany the classic 28'' bike always maintained a healthy market share, so its lineage perhaps
seems more obvious to me. (It acquired the fashionable English name "Trekking-Bike" though.)

Quoted message said:

It has developed from the technologies of both road racing bikes and mountain bikes. It isn't a
direct descendant of the roadster, it is a hybrid of two descendants of early bicycles.

Admittedly mountain bikes did have a big influence regarding gears, brakes, and frame design, but I
can't see a significant contribution from racing bikes.

If you mean the 700c wheels, that's just due to the fact that the bike industry moved towards a
single 28'' size, and that happened to be the French version, which for historic reasons was the one
most commonly used for racers as well.

Andy

Rory said:

Quoted message said:

And here's my main objection to the term: this type of bike was actually there first. Take a look
for example at the "Pneumatic-Tired Safety" from 1898 on the following web page:

pedalinghistory.comPHbikbio.htmOpen ↗

"The bicycle was what made the Gay Ninties gay". So it wasn't the invention of Alcopop, then?

I thought those Nineties were hip? Although I'm sure the "Gay Ninties" weren't entirely sober
either. :-)

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

My point is, this type of bike has been around for ages. Road and mountain bikes were developed
later as special-purpose variations on the same theme. It just doesn't make sense to describe the
original as a hybrid of its own descendants.

Why's it got to make sense?

Why's anything got to make sense? 'cause it helps people understanding things.

Quoted message said:

Anyways, you could always call them "City" bikes, or VTC (Velo Tout Chemin)

Yep, I quite like "City" bike, or the somewhat less exclusive "Town" bike. At least the beast in
question has got a valid claim to being the bike best suited for short trips around town. (I know, I
know, you can use any other bike for that too.)

Translating "All Path/Road Bike" into French only makes it more pretentious.

Andy

Andy Koppe said:

Admittedly mountain bikes did have a big influence regarding gears, brakes, and frame design, but
I can't see a significant contribution from racing bikes.

A modern hybrid is generally quite light, where a roadster weighed a tonne. Something like the
Ridgeback Genesis is close to a typical road racer aside from its flat bars. There are degrees of
variation within the general class of hybrids. Also the case that the gearing is quite likely to be
somewhere more like a touring road bike than a mountain bike.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch University of Dundee Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Medical Physics, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK net [email hidden]
dundee.ac.uk~pjclinchOpen ↗

On Wed, 15 Oct 2003 10:54:18 +0100, Andy Koppe <a n d y @ d c s . e d . a

c . u k said:

Colin Blackburn said:

Well, the name is confusing but a modern "hybrid" is not the same as a classic roadster.

Of course there are differences, but it's still the same idea: heavy but solid frame, 28 inch
wheels, flat(ish) handlebar, medium-width tyres.

Modern "hybrids" are nowhere near as heavy as a roadster. The handlebar positions between the two
couldn't be more different even if both bars are described as flat.

Quoted message said:

Why do you see the "hybrid" as something more different?

It is very different (within the confines of a non-folding, upright, diamond-framed bike) to the
roadster you directed people to.

Quoted message said:

Did they actually stop selling this type of bike in the UK or US at some point during the MTB
boom, only to reinvent it a little later?

Of course not but there has been a continual evolution of the standard bicycle taking in influences
from MTB and road bikes. To continuing calling such bikes roadsters would be as misleading as the
term hybrid is.

FWIW I would prefer them to be known as bikes or road bikes but we are stuck with the terminolgy for
historical reasons, unless you can persuade everyone to change at the same time.

Colin

Colin Blackburn said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Well, the name is confusing but a modern "hybrid" is not the same as a classic roadster.

Of course there are differences, but it's still the same idea: heavy but solid frame, 28 inch
wheels, flat(ish) handlebar, medium-width tyres.

Modern "hybrids" are nowhere near as heavy as a roadster.

That's due to the general advance in materials science. After all, racing bikes and mountain bikes
have been shedding pounds too.

Quoted message said:

The handlebar positions between the two couldn't be more different even if both bars are described
as flat.

Yes they could, if one of them was a drop-down bar. But what kind of handlebar exactly are you
talking about anyway?

The safety had bars that were quite bent towards the rider. The handlebar on my grandpa's 1950s 28''
bike is quite a bit straighter than that.

These days the more "sporty" hybrids come with straight handlebars, another MTB influence. More
comfort-oriented ones still come with bent bars and more upright stems though.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Why do you see the "hybrid" as something more different?

It is very different (within the confines of a non-folding, upright, diamond-framed bike) to the
roadster you directed people to.

There are differences, but whether they afford the word "very" I do very much doubt. Compared to MTB
and racing bike the hybrid is certainly the bike most alike the classic 28'' bicycle.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Did they actually stop selling this type of bike in the UK or US at some point during the MTB
boom, only to reinvent it a little later?

Quoted message said:

Of course not but there has been a continual evolution of the standard bicycle taking in
influences from MTB

Agreed.

Quoted message said:

and road bikes.

There may be some technical details that first appeared on racing bikes, but I certainly don't see
any road bike influence on the basic concept.

Quoted message said:

To continuing calling such bikes roadsters would be as misleading as the term hybrid is.

Well, it wasn't me who introduced the term "roadster" into our discussion. I wouldn't want to use as
it's too easily confused with road/racing bike.

Quoted message said:

FWIW I would prefer them to be known as bikes or road bikes but we are stuck with the terminolgy
for historical reasons, unless you can persuade everyone to change at the same time.

I'd prefer "town bike", but of course I'm well aware that no-one will give a damn. 🙂

You see all kinds of names for "hybrids" in the catalogues though, so there still is a chance to
settle on a more appropriate term.

Andy

Peter Clinch said:

Quoted message said:

That's due to the general advance in materials science. After all, racing bikes and mountain
bikes have been shedding pounds too.

Bit surf on over to gazelle.nl and look at the weights of their "lightweights" with Al frames,
and they're still loads heavier than a typical hybrid, so it can't be just that. A roadster has
things like a full chaincase, rack like the Forth Bridge, shopping basket etc. designed with a
different sort of bombproofing: years of wear and tear on the streets rather getting thrown
around the odd trail.

Of course you can fit all kinds of things to a bike in order to tailor it to requirements and make
it heavier in the process. But what does that have to do with my point about materials?

Again. With a solid frame, 28'' wheels, 35..40mm or thereabouts tires, and flat(ish) handlebar, the
so-called hybrid is a very old concept, which has recently been heavily influenced by mountain
bikes. It never had to be reinvented by combining racer and MTB.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

There are differences, but whether they afford the word "very" I do very much doubt. Compared to
MTB and racing bike the hybrid is certainly the bike most alike the classic 28'' bicycle.

In many ways, yes, but I think it would still exist if the "plain old bike" never had.

May well be, but it had.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

There may be some technical details that first appeared on racing bikes, but I certainly don't
see any road bike influence on the basic concept.

A Ridgeback Genesis has far more in common with a modern racer than a 20s Plain Old Bike.

Because it is a racer, which happens to be fitted with flat handlebars. It's got a racer's light
frame, narrow rims and tyres, dual pivot brakes and narrowly spaced gears.

It neatly illustrates the problems with the hybrid term, because this kind of bike certainly doesn't
belong into the same category as a "classic" hybrid (aka town bike). I've seen them being sold as
"speed bikes".

Andy

In message id <[email hidden]> on 15 Oct 2003 03:35:03 -0700, Rory
wrote in uk.rec.cycling :

Quoted message said:

Andy Koppe <a n d y @ d c s . e d . a c . u k> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

And here's my main objection to the term: this type of bike was actually there first. Take a look
for example at the "Pneumatic-Tired Safety" from 1898 on the following web page:

pedalinghistory.comPHbikbio.htmOpen ↗

"The bicycle was what made the Gay Ninties gay". So it wasn't the invention of Alcopop, then?

Quoted message said:

My point is, this type of bike has been around for ages. Road and mountain bikes were developed
later as special-purpose variations on the same theme. It just doesn't make sense to describe the
original as a hybrid of its own descendants.

Why's it got to make sense? Anyways, you could always call them "City" bikes, or VTC (Velo
Tout Chemin)

Bike fast horse or bike fast trousers?

I am confusssed...

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