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Helmets anyone?

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rec.sport.unicycling
Published
29 July 2005
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10 August 2005
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Radical Reed
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  1. phil said:

    **sigh*

    So you wear a helmet when out walking? Statistically it's more
    dangerous than biking, so presumably unicycling too.

    Phil *

    Could you elaborate on that? How, statistically, is walking more
    dangerous than biking?

    --
    onewheeldave - Semi Skilled Unicyclist

    "You can't outrun Death forever.
    But you can make the [censored] work for it."

    --MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
    "Last of The Lancers"
    AFC 32
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  2. onewheeldave said:

    *Could you elaborate on that? How, statistically, is walking more
    dangerous than biking? *

    Isn't it obvious?! What's wrong with you people, I mean, you go 3 times
    as slow, you got 200% more control, so why dont you bloody underst--
    right... err, nevermind uh, yes. So, someone mentioned free coffee?

    --
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  3. I'm such an awesome Coker rider that I'm never going to hit my head from
    a Coker UPD. My reactions are very quick so I'd be able to keep my head
    off the ground in any kind of a Coker UPD. And I'm so good I don't
    crash anyways. 🙂

    When Coker riding my concern is more on the cars around me, the
    bicyclists around me, the skaters around me, the joggers around me, the
    dogs around me, the kids around me, and all the other things around me
    that I can't control. Being hit by a car would make it very difficult
    for me to keep my head safe from impact on the car or on the ground.
    Getting tangled up with a bike, dog, or jogger could cause me to tumble
    in a way that causes my head to make direct contact with the ground.
    Those are things that are mostly out of my control and the main reason
    for the helmet. Then there are the unexpected things that can happen
    like the unexpected bump at 15+ mph that could lead to a bad UPD and a
    head impact.

    I don't usually wear a helmet for freestyle except for when trying a new
    skill that feels very unstable. I wore a helmet when first trying
    backwards riding and while first learning wheel walking. When I get to
    trying gliding I'll probably put the helmet on again for the learning
    process. Otherwise I don't see a helmet as necessary for standard
    freestyle riding.

    I do wear a helmet when riding trials and muni and when riding along
    roads or the cycle paths.

    --
    john_childs - Guinness Mojo

    john_childs (att) hotmail (dott) com
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  4. onewheeldave said:

    *Could you elaborate on that? How, statistically, is walking more
    dangerous than biking? *

    Fatality rates per billion km travelled, according to the 'Department of
    Transport' (http://tinyurl.com/a7cx5):

    Bus: 0.4
    Car: 3.1
    Bike: 42
    Pedestrian: 59
    Motorbike: 106

    These are figures for 2001, but I can't imagine it having changed all
    that much since then.

    Phil

    --
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  5. phil said:

    *Fatality rates per billion km travelled, according to...

    These are figures for 2001, but I can't imagine it having changed all
    that much since then.
    *

    Well, if you're going to rely on FACTS to support your argument... pah!

    --
    Mikefule - The first cuckoo of unicycling

    Sumer is icomen in, loud sing Mikefule!
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  6. phil said:

    *Fatality rates per billion km travelled, according to the 'Department
    of Transport' (http://tinyurl.com/a7cx5):

    Bus: 0.4
    Car: 3.1
    Bike: 42
    Pedestrian: 59
    Motorbike: 106

    These are figures for 2001, but I can't imagine it having changed all
    that much since then.

    Phil *

    So... does anyone know why walking is so much more dangerous than
    busing, and somewhat more dangerous than cycling? Any idea what the
    cause of those walking fatalities generally are?

    I'm having difficulties understanding why walking is apparently
    resulting in more fatalities than cycling, as cycling seems to carry
    more risk, and, when I'm cycling it definitly -feels- more risky than
    walking on the pavement.

    I notice that the stats given are per billion km travelled, could that
    in some way be distorting the figures?

    --
    onewheeldave - Semi Skilled Unicyclist

    "You can't outrun Death forever.
    But you can make the [censored] work for it."

    --MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
    "Last of The Lancers"
    AFC 32
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  7. onewheeldave said:

    I notice that the stats given are per billion km travelled, could that
    in some way be distorting the figures?

    Using those stats and assumjing bikes travel 5 times as fast a
    pederstians, I figure a bicyclist is 3.5 times more likely to die per
    hour. Stating it this way, one could easily claim walking is safer.

  8. john_childs said:

    *I'm such an awesome Coker rider that I'm never going to hit my head
    from a Coker UPD.*


    ...even if it's caused by a drunk driver behind you?

    Ever seen a bicyclist going downhill 100 k.m./h in Swiss during a race,
    and a femal driver (around a corner) driving in the oppesit direction in
    a posh-cabrio (and ignoring police orders), meeting VERY close (and not
    though the door...)...?

    Or let's remember Fabio Carsatelli, untill 10 years ago an Italian
    team-mate of Lance Armstrong under Dutch team-manager Hennie Kuiper...

    Last two case were on two wheels... most likely wont have happen on one
    wheel.
    But it illustrates your just fragile, and part of traffic.

    Personally I never wear a helmet, I don't even have one anymore.
    But okay, I'm not a cokernaut, don't trail, muni, and in traffic avoid
    being close to cars.

    --
    leo - Leo Vandewoestijne

    '+1 866-UNI-CYCL' (callto://+18668642925)
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  9. phil said:

    *Fatality rates per billion km travelled, according to the 'Department
    of Transport' (http://tinyurl.com/a7cx5):
    Bus: 0.4
    Car: 3.1
    Bike: 42
    Pedestrian: 59
    Motorbike: 106
    *

    that's the number of people who are killed....how about you do the
    percentage of pedestrians that don't get hurt to pedestrians that do get
    hurt, vs. bikers who don't get hurt to bikers who do get hurt. I bet
    those statistics will tell a different story.

    --
    James_Potter - betcha can't stick it!
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  10. leo said:

    *...even if it's caused by a drunk driver behind you? *

    You took the smiley off the end of that paragraph. I should have used
    the sarcastic smiley cause that first paragraph was a jab at people who
    claim they are so good that they can ride fast and not need a helmet.
    It's an argument some use to justify not wearing a helmet when they
    bike. That argument ignores physics and it ignores the fact that other
    vehicles and people are on the road/trail and you have almost no control
    over whether they crash into you or not no matter how good of a rider
    you are.

    I'm pro helmet but also pro individual choice and anti mandatory helmet
    laws.

    My main concern when Cokering is having another vehicle or person hit
    me. My second concern is the odd type of fall or UPD where you fall
    with no warning or no control. Both are reasons to wear a helmet just
    in case.

    --
    john_childs - Guinness Mojo

    john_childs (att) hotmail (dott) com
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  11. Ken Cline said:

    *"onewheeldave"

    Quoted message said:

    I notice that the stats given are per billion km travelled, could


    that

    Quoted message said:

    in some way be distorting the figures?

    Using those stats and assumjing bikes travel 5 times as fast a
    pederstians, I figure a bicyclist is 3.5 times more likely to die
    per
    hour. Stating it this way, one could easily claim walking is safer. *

    Nice.

    --
    ChangingLINKS.com - member

    Wishing you Happiness, Joy and Laughter,
    Drew Brown
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  12. Wow, that rate for pedestrians is high! But I think only in very few
    cases a helmet would have had any use for them.
    If I (as pedestrian or unicyclist) cross a crossing or street and ignore
    a red light, then I often remember 'this -shocking- movie'
    (http://tinyurl.com/7modw) of a car ignoring a red light and hitting a
    pedestrian who had a green one.

    john_childs said:

    *You took the smiley off the end of that paragraph.*


    Hmmm, "I did'nt notice, I must have overlooked".
    Plus smiling would be the last thing I would do if this happens to any
    unicyclist.
    For the rest it seems we totaly agree. I wish you a save trip trough the
    Alphs.

    --
    leo - Leo Vandewoestijne

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  13. All the statistics you see for accident figures are misleading. As they
    say: 53.7% of all statistics are made up.😉

    Those who collect the statistics look closely at some variables, and not
    at others. Also, the definitions used are open to question. For
    example, does "miles walked" include on the road, on the pavement, on
    public footpaths, or in the home, workplace and covered pedestrian
    areas?

    Is the distance covered the relevant one? Surely it should be time
    exposed to risk. So, if a bicycle travels at ana verage of 12 mph on a
    country road, and a car travels at 40 mph (these are both realistic
    averages) then the bicycle is exposed to the risk of an accident with
    another road user for more than 3 times as long.

    Then look at the subscategories. It is obvious at first glance that the
    risk to a sensible experienced mature cyclist on a well maintained
    bicycle is less than the risk to an irresponsible young rider with no
    road manners and poorly maintained brakes and gears. Either could be
    involved in an accident that is or isn't their fault, but the
    irresponsible rider on a badly maintained bike is at greater risk.

    Insurers recognise this type of diffeence by group rating different
    types of car and charging different premiums for different age groups.

    The group rating of vehicles reflects the built in safety features (air
    bags, ABS), the type of driver likely to buy it, and the likely cost of
    an accident if one happens - including repair costs, and the severity of
    any injuries. A VW Golf Turbo is not only more likely to have an
    accident than a Skoda of similar pghysical size, but the accident is
    likely to be at a higher speed and cause more damage.

    Apply these principles to the figures quoted earlier on this thread: we
    know that cyclists generally are at a higher risk of death, per mile
    travelled, than car drivers/passengers. So, allow for the difference in
    time exposed to risk, the fact that most motorists have at least had
    some training and have passed a test, and that many cyclists treat the
    law and road safety with complete contempt. We now no nothing at all
    about the comparative risks of a sensible experienced mature and alert
    cyclist on a safe machine, and a car driver meating similar criteria.

    My guess, based on a hell of a lot of experience on the roads (I used to
    drive 35 000 miles a year; I've ridden big and small motorcycles and
    scooters, tandems, bicycles, unicycles and even vintage bicycles) is
    that the "ideal" cyclist is at no greater risk of an accident than the
    "ideal" motorist. However, the consequences of an accident are greater
    for the cyclist because the cyclist is less protected.

    Back to helmets: common sense says usually wear one, but don't think it
    makes you safe. Your helmet is there to protect your most important
    piece of safety equipment: your brain.

    --
    Mikefule - The first cuckoo of unicycling

    Sumer is icomen in, loud sing Mikefule!
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  14. I'm all for helmets. Especially since abought the beginning of June. I
    was happily unicycling along when I accidenatly got to much speed and
    fell, and landed on my head. Luckily I was wearing my helmet at the
    time, or else I would have come out of it much worse than with a minor
    concussion. (couldn't unicycle for a week due to major headaches)

    In all, I don't think nor believe that helmets should be absolutely
    mandatory, I just think it's a smart thing to have, no matter what your
    doing, because accidents do happen. And if your really worried about
    looking stupid, your already on a unicycle, I think people are going to
    notice the unicycle more than you wearing a helmet.

    --
    davis_e74 - uni uni uni uni uni uni coker coker
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  15. I've heard it said that "a helmet is there to protect your brain, not
    instead of it". I like that philosophy - wear a helmet to protect
    yourself from some injuries, but still look out, it won't make you
    invincible.

    --
    rob.northcott - Need to practise uphill mounts
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  16. davis_e74 said:

    *
    In all, I don't think nor believe that helmets should be absolutely
    mandatory, *

    I agree with that although it states in the latest CTC (Cycle Touring
    Club) magazine that the BMA (British Medical Association) are trying to
    push for a ban on cycling without a helmet in the UK even though in
    countries where mandatory helmet wearing is imposed cycling has fallen
    by 25-40%. I'd hate to see that law imposed even though I normally wear
    one while bicycling, as for unicycling, it all depends on the type of
    riding I'm doing, It seems daft not to wear one while riding down tree
    lined single track, but for genaral cross country I don't usually
    bother. It should be a personal choice thing.

    --
    MattPH - Muni Hungry

    You do WHAT on it?
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  17. onewheeldave wondered:

    Quoted message said:

    So... does anyone know why walking is so much more dangerous than
    busing, and somewhat more dangerous than cycling? Any idea what the
    cause of those walking fatalities generally are?

    I'm having difficulties understanding why walking is apparently
    resulting in more fatalities than cycling, as cycling seems to carry
    more risk,

    I would have thought the difference between busing and walking was
    mostly to do with not being surrounded by a huge, highly visible and
    protective metal box while walking.

    The difference between walking and cycling has been discussed during
    various helmet threads on uk.rec.cycling. I hoped to find an answer
    using Google, but didn't. I also thought I might find an answer here,
    but didn't:
    <URL:http://www.cyclehelmets.org/papers/c2014.pdf>

    There is considerable discussion of the risks to different road users in
    "Death on the Streets" by Robert Davis, but what I'm about to write is
    largely speculation on my part as to the reasons for the difference.

    The most important thing to bear in mind is that the vast majority of
    fatalities, for all road users, are caused by motorists. The difference
    in fatality rates indicates that motorists pose a greater danger to peds
    than to cyclists. Personally, I suspect that a major reason for this is
    that cyclists who are competent enough to ride on the road tend to be
    more careful and alert than the typical ped. Also, competent cyclists
    ride in a vehicular style. Following the rules of the road makes our
    behaviour more predictable than that of most peds. And the only reason
    for crossing the road (which is where peds are exposed to the greatest
    danger) is to turn right - in which case we look behind, signal right,
    look behind again and pull across to the right in a safe, predictable
    manner. We don't have the problem of trying to see round parked cars to
    check whether it's safe to cross, or trying to find somewhere away from
    a bend where that might mean walking a couple of hundred extra yards.

    Actually, there's one situation where peds are probably exposed to
    greater danger than when crossing the road. That's when walking on
    roads with no pavement (US: sidewalk). It simply doesn't occur to some
    motorists that they might encounter a pedestrian (or a cyclist, for that
    matter) when they're haring round narrow country lanes at 60 mph.

    Quoted message said:

    and, when I'm cycling it definitly -feels- more risky than
    walking on the pavement.

    Well, there's an argument for risk compensation. You take more care
    when cycling because it feels more dangerous. Although I have to say it
    feels a lot safer to me. When walking, I've been in too many situations
    where a motorist has come haring round a bend, barely in control of the
    car, in such a way that they could all too easily come off the road and
    career across the pavement, killing any pedestrian who happens to be
    there. It's particularly worrying to have this happen as you are
    walking past the remains of a wall or a fence that hasn't yet been
    repaired since the last maniac lost control on the bend. Even more so
    if you know that the fence has been repaired 3 times already this year,
    like the fence that I used to walk past every morning on my way to the
    bus stop.

    Of course, a cyclist could easily be wiped out on the same bend, but if
    I'm on a bike then I'll be travelling 4 or 5 times as fast, so I'll be
    in the danger zone for less time.

    BTW, a surprisingly high proportion of ped fatalities (I'm afraid I
    can't remember what proportion) is caused by motorists driving on the
    pavement. That's a risk that competent cyclists aren't exposed to,
    because of course we don't ride on the pavement.

    Quoted message said:

    I notice that the stats given are per billion km travelled, could that
    in some way be distorting the figures?

    In what way?

    --
    Danny Colyer (the UK company has been laughed out of my reply address)
    <URL:http://www.speedy5.freeserve.co.uk/danny/>
    "He who dares not offend cannot be honest." - Thomas Paine

  18. Danny Colyer said:

    cyclehelmets.org exists with the purpose of providing accurate,
    unbiased information about the effectiveness of cycle helmets.

    That's a joke, right? Cyclehelmets.org is all about anti-helmet law
    advocacy. That's the opposite of unbiased.

    Here's why I am skeptical of the claims they make. First, because I
    have looked into some of them and found authoritative, contradictory
    information that was conveniently not mentioned on the site. Second
    because their main arguments that helmets lack effectiveness are based
    on indirect inference which use to "disprovef" more direct studies.
    Not only that, but I was easily able to find studies contradicting the
    ones they cite. My bogometer remained pegged in the red zone during
    my reading of their web site.

    Anyway, if you wish to promote cyclehelmets.org I'll take the
    opportunity to mention the Bicycle Helmet Safety Institute. As you
    can see here [http://www.bhsi.org/links.htm#Opposition], they are no
    friend of the Bicycle Helmet Research Foundation, publisher of
    cyclehelmets.org. They have a page on "Internet Helmet Wars Issues"
    [http://www.bhsi.org/negativs.htm] which should be required reading
    for anyone perusing cyclehelmets.org.

    Ken

  19. Ken Cline said:
    Quoted message said:

    <URL:http://www.cyclehelmets.org/mf.html#1101>

    Quoted message said:

    If you go to that site, be warned that IMHO they offer misleading
    speculation about possible risks of helmet use. The risks they
    mention are not only unproven, but many have been debunked. Despite
    having lots of references to support their other arguments, they fail
    to mention significant rebuttals to these theories.

    Do feel free to cite some of these "debunkings" and "significant
    rebuttals". Note that the data on the site is all backed by cited
    research - the main author is a cycle safety expert of international
    standing and an expert witness in cycle injury cases.

    Declaration of interest: http://www.cyclehelmets.org/mf.html#1121

    Guy
    --
    May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
    http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

    88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at CHS, Puget Sound

  20. Ken Cline said:

    Anyway, if you wish to promote cyclehelmets.org I'll take the
    opportunity to mention the Bicycle Helmet Safety Institute.

    Ah yes, BHSI. Now that /is/ biased :-)

    http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk/web/public.nsf/Documents/BHSI

    Quoted message said:

    As you
    can see here [http://www.bhsi.org/links.htm#Opposition], they are no
    friend of the Bicycle Helmet Research Foundation, publisher of
    cyclehelmets.org. They have a page on "Internet Helmet Wars Issues"
    [http://www.bhsi.org/negativs.htm] which should be required reading
    for anyone perusing cyclehelmets.org.

    LOL! I'm sure Dorre will be delighted that her pages are "an
    interesting comment on what increased helmet wearing can do over a
    period of years" - given that she has shown that the effect of the
    laws is as great for pedestrians as it is for cyclists :-D

    Guy
    --
    May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
    http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

    88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at CHS, Puget Sound

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