helmets and mirrors

Richard Ney said:

Motion or object detection is all that's required. I don't care if it's a yellow sedan or a gray
SUV, I just care that something's there. A glance is all that's required.

Kind of tough to keep track of a group that's following you if all you can get is motion detection.
I find it quite helpful if I'm leading a group to keep an eye on them in the mirror - that way, you
get to know if everybody made it through the light, or if they are starting to fall back.

I'm glad you feel you can do without a mirror. Don't overgeneralize and think that because you don't
need one, nobody should use one.

Richard Ney said:

As in driving a car, a "head check" is essential while cycling in traffic.

I agree, head checks are often essential. But not always. Specifically, if you've got a mirror, you
can often tell there's a vehicle at your side without a head check. That way you don't need to
bother to turn your head.

I find a mirror is a great help when setting up a merge-left for a left turn. I can judge oncoming
traffic to see when my best chance will come to make the move left. Of course, I do a head check
just before the merge, but I don't need to do it more than once. Ditto for pothole avoidance, or if
a car approaches a stop sign too fast - as in "Will she stop?? Should I swing left for more
visibility and clearance?" At a time like that, I don't want to be looking back over my shoulder.

Oh, and about the "sharp ear" - yeah, that can help, but if I relied too much on my ears, I'd have
had some serious accidents.

Quoted message said:

The only folks I ever see using the things are slow, unsteady riders that are severely lacking in
basic bike handling skills.

Well, then, your experience is obviously limited.

--
Frank Krygowski [email hidden]

"Richard Ney" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Esmail Bonakdarian said:

I have really come to depend on my helmet mirror over these many years, but this helmet is
really not safe any more so I'd like to get a new one, but one where I can mount a mirror that
won't fall off or get misadjusted all the time.

Can anyone share their experiences and/or make some recommendations?

Yes. Learn to ride without the mirror; it's a crutch and, ultimately, a safety hazard, not a
safety solution.

Learning to listen and watch traffic, turn your head quickly to see behind you without swerving,
and stay relaxed and nimble on the bike will save you in heavy traffic. I've had one bad accident
cycling in Manhattan in the last 6 years (~ 10,000 miles annually) and it had nothing to do with
traffic. Messengers here never use mirrors nor do any of my cycling friends. The only folks I ever
see using the things are slow, unsteady riders that are severely lacking in basic bike handling
skills. Chuck the mirror!

I disagree. I deal with traffic a lot. I live in San Diego and cycle 30 miles each way across the
city on my commute to work. I have put in 6-10K miles annually for several years.

For 20 years I never used a mirror. My reasoning was exactly like yours (including what you said in
your other post). Then last summer I tried a helmet mirror. I used it for three weeks of commuting,
long enough to get used to it, then took it off for a race. As soon as I took it off I missed it.

Now, a year later, I never ride without it. Give it a try before dishing users as "slow, unsteady
riders that are severely lacking in basic bike handling skills".

Tom

Tom

Paul Kopit said:

Why do you use mirrors in the car?

I don't equate the "mirror experience" in car to that on a bike. Besides, I glance back when I'm in
my car, as I do on a bike.

Quoted message said:

Richard Ney said:

The only folks I ever see using the things are slow, unsteady riders that are severely lacking in
basic bike handling skills. Chuck the mirror!

Quoted message said:

As in driving a car, a "head check" is essential while cycling in traffic.

Actually, with a mirror, it's not. You can't sweep the whole field of view with a car mirror,
you can with a head mounted mirror. A glance, combined with a bit of head rotation, leaves no
blind spots.

Quoted message said:

Motion or object detection is all that's required. I don't care if it's a yellow sedan or a gray
SUV, I just care that something's there. A glance is all that's required.

I think closing speed and lane position of traffic behind (motor vehicles and/or bikes) are the most
important pieces of information, acuity is necessary to determine them with any accuracy.

Quoted message said:

I ride solo and in packs, in the suburbs, in the city and in rural areas when I vacation in
Northern California. An ocassional glance, along with a sharp ear, keeps me well aprised of riders
and cars in my vicinity.

You have to update your view as often as the situation is changing. I find that takes more than an
occasional glance, at least in east coast style cities. Ears give a little more information, but
it's not as complete or reliable.

Quoted message said:

I believe that relying on mirrors to do this would ultimately result in degraded senses and put me
in a [more] vulnerable position.

I don't understand basis for the degradation of senses belief. I haven't noticed using a mirror
weakening my eyesight.

"Richard Ney" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Peter Cole said:

That way, merging around potholes, double parked vehicles, etc. doesn't require a head check.

As in driving a car, a "head check" is essential while cycling in traffic.

Both are half correct.

In order for you to verify that there is no car there, yes. The mirror will not absolutely assure
you that there is not.

However, as a method of your learning the opposite, that there IS a car there, then Peter is
correct. In that case the mirror has saved you a head check.

Doug

Quoted message said:

Amen. Not to mention, who would voluntarily have *real* glass (or in the worst case a long, metal
'eye-remover'😉 that close to their eyes? What happens if you crash?
A: You're in a world of hurt.

It gets worse -- some people even wear *glasses* when they ride!

Douglas Landau said:

"Richard Ney" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Peter Cole said:

That way, merging around potholes, double parked vehicles, etc. doesn't require a head check.

As in driving a car, a "head check" is essential while cycling in traffic.

Both are half correct.

In order for you to verify that there is no car there, yes. The mirror will not absolutely assure
you that there is not.

I presume this is because of the presence of 'vampire cars' in your area that do not reflect in a
mirror. Fortunately I haven't noticed those around here, so when I look in the mirror and turn my
head slightly to see a totally empty road behind me there really aren't any cars there.

Thomas Reynolds said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I have really come to depend on my helmet mirror over these many years, but this helmet is
really not safe any more so I'd like to get a new one, but one where I can mount a mirror that
won't fall off or get misadjusted all the time.

Can anyone share their experiences and/or make some recommendations?

Yes. Learn to ride without the mirror; it's a crutch and, ultimately, a safety hazard, not a
safety solution.

Learning to listen and watch traffic, turn your head quickly to see behind you without swerving,
and stay relaxed and nimble on the bike will save you in heavy traffic. I've had one bad accident
cycling in Manhattan in the last 6 years (~ 10,000 miles annually) and it had nothing to do with
traffic. Messengers here never use mirrors nor do any of my cycling friends. The only folks I
ever see using the things are slow, unsteady riders that are severely lacking in basic bike
handling skills. Chuck the mirror!

I disagree. I deal with traffic a lot. I live in San Diego and cycle 30 miles each way across the
city on my commute to work. I have put in 6-10K miles annually for several years.

For 20 years I never used a mirror. My reasoning was exactly like yours (including what you said
in your other post). Then last summer I tried a helmet mirror. I used it for three weeks of
commuting, long enough to get used to it, then took it off for a race. As soon as I took it off I
missed it.

Now, a year later, I never ride without it. Give it a try before dishing users as "slow, unsteady
riders that are severely lacking in basic bike handling skills".

You mean "dissing", right?

I wasn't "dissing" anyone. I was simply sharing my experience that cyclists that I see using
mirrors are typically lacking in basic handling skills. The original poster asked, "Can anyone
share their experiences and/or make some recommendations?". I made a recommendation. Some appear to
be upset or agitated by my response. I suggest that they go for a bike ride, sans mirror, and blow
off a little steam.

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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Richard:

Shucks, I glance back in the car too but I still use the mirrors when driving. And, believe it or
not, I glance over my shoulder while riding my bike even though I also have my mirror on. Why?
Because it's a good idea not to depend entirely on the mirror. Despite that though, I feel the
mirror gives me a wider margin of safety. Obviously your opinion differs but that's your right. Tell
me, have you ever worn a mirror or are you afraid of looking like a "dweeb"?

MOO, Matt

Richard Ney said:

Paul Kopit said:

Why do you use mirrors in the car?

I don't equate the "mirror experience" in car to that on a bike. Besides, I glance back when I'm in
my car, as I do on a bike.

Quoted message said:

Richard Ney said:

The only folks I ever see using the things are slow, unsteady riders that are severely lacking in
basic bike handling skills. Chuck the mirror!

--------------080309050506020405020908 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN"> <html> <head> <title></title>
</head> <body> Richard:<br> <br> Shucks, I glance back in the car too but I still use the mirrors
when driving. And, believe it or not, I glance over my shoulder while riding my bike even
though I also have my mirror on. Why? Because it's a good idea not to depend entirely on
the mirror. Despite that though, I feel the mirror gives me a wider margin of safety.
Obviously your opinion differs but that's your right. Tell me, have you ever worn a
mirror or are you afraid of looking like a "dweeb"?<br> <br> MOO,<br> Matt<br> <br> Richard Ney
wrote:<br> <blockquote type="cite" cite="[email hidden]"> <pre
wrap="">Paul Kopit writes:

</pre> <blockquote type="cite"> <pre wrap="">Why do you use mirrors in the car? </pre>
</blockquote> <pre wrap=""><!----> I don't equate the "mirror experience" in car to that on a
bike. Besides, I glance back when I'm in my car, as I do on a bike.

</pre> <blockquote type="cite"> <pre wrap="">On Tue, 15 Apr 2003 07:22:24 -0400, "Richard Ney" <a
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href=""][email hidden]"><[email hidden]></a> wrote:

</pre> <blockquote type="cite"> <pre wrap="">The only folks I ever see using the things are
slow, unsteady riders that are severely lacking in basic bike handling skills. Chuck the mirror!
</pre> </blockquote> </blockquote> <pre wrap=""><!---->

</pre> </blockquote> <br> </body> </html>

--------------080309050506020405020908--

Matt Locker said:

Shucks, I glance back in the car too but I still use the mirrors when driving. And, believe it or
not, I glance over my shoulder while riding my bike even though I also have my mirror on. Why?
Because it's a good idea not to depend entirely on the mirror. Despite that though, I feel the
mirror gives me a wider margin of safety. Obviously your opinion differs but that's your right.
Tell me, have you ever worn a mirror or are you afraid of looking like a "dweeb"?

Shucks, Matt, I already look like a dweeb!

Doug Huffman said:

I like my Third Eye Micro Mirror.

thanks Doug, Esmail
---
Esmail Bonakdarian - [email hidden] - cs.mercer.edubonakOpen ↗ 32N 83W

Paul Kopit said:

Get a Take a Look mirror and stick the prongs into the styrofoam. You can use a bit of glue
when doing so. It does stay fine. They make a stick on holder to do the same but that doesn't
work as well.

Thanks Paul,

Esmail
---
Esmail Bonakdarian - [email hidden] - cs.mercer.edubonakOpen ↗ 32N 83W

Frank Krygowski said:

Quoted message said:

What are temple piece mirrors?

I believe he means mirrors which fasten to the side of glasses. I prefer that too. Eyeglass
mirrors are steadier than helmet-mounted mirrors, and can be used no matter what hat (if any) a
person chooses to wear.

Yes, I've seen people do that. The problem is that I don't always wear glasses when I ride, so I
like the helmet mounted mirrors better.

Esmail
---
Esmail Bonakdarian - [email hidden] - cs.mercer.edubonakOpen ↗ 32N 83W

Richard Ney said:

Yes. Learn to ride without the mirror; it's a crutch and, ultimately, a safety hazard, not a
safety solution.

In your opinion of course.

Quoted message said:

Learning to listen and watch traffic, turn your head quickly to see behind you without swerving,
and stay relaxed and nimble on the bike will save you in heavy traffic. I've had one bad accident
cycling in Manhattan in the last 6 years (~ 10,000 miles annually) and it had nothing to do with
traffic. Messengers here never use mirrors nor do any of my cycling friends. The only folks I ever
see using the things

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Quoted message said:

are slow, unsteady riders that are severely lacking in basic bike

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Quoted message said:

handling skills.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Well, you have never seen me cycle, and I have never ever heard anyone say such thing.

I have been riding a bike for 35+ years, including two solo, US coast-to-coast rides, and one solo
2000+ mile ride last summer down the US westcoast from Seattle to San Diego and then through the
desert to Phoenix (never mind some 10 RAGBRAIs, and years of commuting, in both small (Iowa City)
and large (Washington DC, Hamburg, Germany) towns.

I am not a slow or unsteady rider. And I certainly don't lack "basic bike handling skills" -
far from it.

In fact, riding some part of coastal US-highway 1 was quite re-affirming in my belief that having a
mirror enhances safety for me. (Believe it or not, I carried a spare)

Going down some of these steep narrow roads with no guard rails on the side (big drop offs) and
cars passing, I was happy that I didn't have to twist my head back to scan for traffic on my bike.
Add to that the loaded touring bike, and strong winds, you try to keep your eyes to the front as
much as you can.

I agree with you about being aware of your environment, you'll never catch me cycling with
headphones or anything that would prevent me from listening for traffic.

While your comments may have been well intentioned (or perhaps an attempt at humor), you are making
generalizations that I can not agree with.

Esmail
---
Esmail Bonakdarian - [email hidden] - cs.mercer.edubonakOpen ↗ 32N 83W

Sheldon Brown said:

I like and use the 3rd Eye "Pro" model. This is held on by adhesives, but, while their
illustration shows it stuck to the outside of a helmet, it really works better stuck to
the inside.

They don't last forever, but they work quite well. I supplement the adhesive with clear
packing tape.

Thanks for the recommendation Sheldon.

Quoted message said:

I would rather ride without my helmet than without my mirror.

agreed!

Quoted message said:

Once you get used to using a good helmet mirror, you'll find they actually work better than
automobile mirrors.

Yes, since they allow a scan by moving the head just a bit.

Cheers, Esmail
---
Esmail Bonakdarian - [email hidden] - cs.mercer.edubonakOpen ↗ 32N 83W

Michael Dart said:

Here you go:

reevu.comproduct design.htmOpen ↗

Wow .. that's some helmet/idea ... curious, have you used one of these (or are you)?

Thanks Mike

Esmail
---
Esmail Bonakdarian - [email hidden] - cs.mercer.edubonakOpen ↗ 32N 83W

Esmail Bonakdarian said:

Frank Krygowski said:

Quoted message said:

What are temple piece mirrors?

I believe he means mirrors which fasten to the side of glasses. I prefer that too. Eyeglass
mirrors are steadier than helmet-mounted mirrors, and can be used no matter what hat (if any) a
person chooses to wear.

Yes, I've seen people do that. The problem is that I don't always wear glasses when I ride, so I
like the helmet mounted mirrors better.

The mirror I got at REI ('Take-A-Look'??) was designed for fastening to glasses but also included a
plastic piece to glue inside your helmet allowing you to fasten it there. I usually have it attached
to my helmet so I don't have to keep taking it on and off of my glasses, but it's nice to have the
option for times when I don't wear the helmet.

RE/

Quoted message said:

I have been riding a bike for 35+ years, including two solo, US coast-to-coast rides, and one solo
2000+ mile ride last summer down the US westcoast from Seattle to San Diego and then through the
desert to Phoenix (never mind some 10 RAGBRAIs, and years of commuting, in both small (Iowa City)
and large (Washington DC, Hamburg, Germany) towns.

Any tips for diletants like myself re/saddle comfort/butt maintainence?
-----------------------
PeteCresswell

Esmail Bonakdarian said:

Richard Ney said:

Yes. Learn to ride without the mirror; it's a crutch and, ultimately, a safety hazard, not a
safety solution.

In your opinion of course.

It is my opinion, yes.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Learning to listen and watch traffic, turn your head quickly to see behind you without swerving,
and stay relaxed and nimble on the bike will save you in heavy traffic. I've had one bad accident
cycling in Manhattan in the last 6 years (~ 10,000 miles annually) and it had nothing to do with
traffic. Messengers here never use mirrors nor do any of my cycling friends. The only folks I
ever see using the things

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Quoted message said:

are slow, unsteady riders that are severely lacking in basic bike

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Quoted message said:

handling skills.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Well, you have never seen me cycle, and I have never ever heard anyone say such thing.

So?

Quoted message said:

I have been riding a bike for 35+ years, including two solo, US coast-to-coast rides, and one solo
2000+ mile ride last summer down the US westcoast from Seattle to San Diego and then through the
desert to Phoenix (never mind some 10 RAGBRAIs, and years of commuting, in both small (Iowa City)
and large (Washington DC, Hamburg, Germany) towns.

I am not a slow or unsteady rider. And I certainly don't lack "basic bike handling skills" - far
from it.

Well, that's terrific for you. But, as you quote, I never indicated you were. It's simply been my
experience that riders who rely on these things are lacking a fundamental bike handling skill. That
I relate that seems to abrade your sensibilities.

Quoted message said:

In fact, riding some part of coastal US-highway 1 was quite re-affirming in my belief that having
a mirror enhances safety for
me. (Believe it or not, I carried a spare)

Some people worry over rosary beads and throw salt over their shoulder to reassure themselves.
Perhaps that would add to your sense of security.

Quoted message said:

Going down some of these steep narrow roads with no guard rails on the side (big drop offs) and
cars passing, I was happy that I didn't have to twist my head back to scan for traffic on my bike.
Add to that the loaded touring bike, and strong winds, you try to keep your eyes to the front as
much as you can.

That sounds treacherous!