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Helment Damage.

Started by Evan Byrne · · Last activity · 43 posts · 1,718 views

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rec.sport.unicycling
Published
16 April 2005
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21 April 2005
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Evan Byrne
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  1. U-Turn said:

    *Compared with the size and mass of the human body, the helmet is
    indeed negligible in both terms. An engineer would have no problem
    saying that if you smash your helmet, you would have smashed your
    head. *

    Why would one compare the size and mass of a helmet to that of the human
    body? Last time I checked, most people wore helmets just on their
    head.

    Which engineer are you talking about? Yourself? I would have a problem
    making such a statement. There are 1,001 ways to smash a helmet, and
    1,001 ways to smash your head, but the two events are not 100%
    correlated.

    ...especially since Evan's involved. Frankly, I'm a bit skeptical about
    that guy's claims. Call me a critic, but I still don't believe he broke
    his helmet doing a backflip down three stairs.

    --
    maestro8 - Mad Scientists for World Domination

    Those are my principles. If you don't like those, I have others. --
    Groucho Marx
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  2. Rowan said:

    *
    A helmet which is not used damages the wallet with a low energy
    impact. Helmets suck!!! Notice that no "Unicycle safety experts"
    systematically refute any of the claims. Bicycles and unicycles are
    completely different vehicles, hence the laws for wearing helmets on
    bikes not unicycles. *

    'hence' is IMO not the appropriate term there, as it states that there
    are no laws for unicycle helmets -because- they are completely different
    to bikes.

    The real reason there are no helmet laws for unicycles is surely because
    the law hasn't turned its attention towards them, due to them being
    possibly the least used form of transport.

    --
    onewheeldave - Semi Skilled Unicyclist

    "You can't outrun Death forever.
    But you can make the [censored] work for it."

    --MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
    "Last of The Lancers"
    AFC 32
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  3. I thought I would add some more fuel to the fire on the helmet debate.
    I have included a graph on impact survival experience from NASA-STD
    3000. One point that you should note is that a head impact from a
    standing position (no added riding velocity) is on the edge of
    survivability. This assumes that the person's head is the first thing
    to hit the ground and the ground did not absorb any of the impact
    (concrete). Hope this helps with your debate.

    +----------------------------------------------------------------+
    | Attachment filename: impact.jpg |
    |Download attachment: http://www.unicyclist.com/attachment/300643|
    +----------------------------------------------------------------+

    --
    jim.furfaro - Rocket Scientist

    Earth - Moon - Mars: Challange Traditions, Continue the American
    Adventure
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  4. maestro8 said:

    *Why would one compare the size and mass of a helmet to that of the
    human body? Last time I checked, most people wore helmets just on
    their head.*


    Because a poster above was talking about center of mass. The COM of a
    person would be essentially unchanged by adding a helmet. As far as
    size goes, the size of the body compared with the size of the helmet
    means that the helmet is way less than 1% of the volumetric footprint of
    the body. So as far as an accident goes, the size of a person is
    unaffected by a helmet. Therefore, the class of accidents is unchanged
    by the addition or deletion of a helmet.

    Quoted message said:

    *Which engineer are you talking about? Yourself? *


    Yup.

    Quoted message said:

    *I would have a problem making such a statement. There are 1,001 ways
    to smash a helmet, and 1,001 ways to smash your head, but the two
    events are not 100% correlated.
    *


    Why do you think 100% correlation is required? If a helmet saves death
    or injury in a reasonable subset of accidents (it does), then it is
    worth wearing.

    --
    U-Turn - As long as my feet keep movin'...

    Weep in the dojo... laugh on the battlefield.
    'LiveWire Unicycles' (http://www.livewireunicycles.com)
    'Strongest Coker Wheel in the World'
    (http://www.unicyclist.com/gallery/albup39)
    '29er Tire Study' (http://u-turn.unicyclist.com/29erTireStudy/)
    'New York Unicycle Club' (http://www.newyorkunicycle.com)
    -- Dave Stockton
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  5. Quoted message said:


    Why do you think 100% correlation is required? If a helmet saves death
    or injury in a reasonable subset of accidents (it does), then it is
    worth wearing.

    Ah, but there you get into the tricky part. You are more likely to have
    a head injury in a car accident than in a bike accident (even with a
    seat belt), but to suggest that people wear helmets in cars is
    considered ridiculous. Similarly, pedestrians get head injuries in a
    reasonable subset of accidents, but no one thinks of advocating for
    helmet usage for pedestrians.

    The helmet debate is much more about perception of risk than it is about
    actual risk. That's not to say that helmets don't reduce risk; they do.
    But the lines people draw about where helmets "should" be worn are
    largely arbitrary.

    --
    tholub - Kinetic Sculptor
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  6. U-Turn said:

    *Because a poster above was talking about center of mass. The COM of
    a person would be essentially unchanged by adding a helmet. (snip)
    Therefore, the class of accidents is unchanged by the addition or
    deletion of a helmet.*

    You're failing to recognize that the dynamics of the human body are far
    different than that of a rigid body. The head is not rigidly attached
    to the body (or, for some, not attached at all) and is free to move with
    at least three degrees of freedom, constrained by the attachment at the
    neck.

    Adding a helmet to the head increases its mass significantly (when you
    consider _just_ the head). As the helmeted head accelerates during an
    accident, the neck will be subjected to more stress and strain than
    normal. One's head does not have to be impacted to get it to
    accelerate, so in some cases, a helmet can cause more damage than it can
    prevent.

    Note I am not discouraging anyone from wearing a helmet, but I would
    like to point out that it is not 100% safe. It is every rider's
    personal decision to risk permanent, irreversable brain injury; wear a
    helmet now or a drool bib later, your choice.

    U-Turn said:

    An engineer would have no problem saying that if you smash your
    helmet, you would have smashed your head.
    [/B]

    Quoted message said:

    -Backpedal posted by U-Turn -
    *Why do you think 100% correlation is required?*

    I don't... your original post was a very blatant statment, in effect:
    "An engineer says if A then B." Such a statement implies 100%
    correlation. Your "an engineer" qualification lends no weight to your
    witless deduction, and offends other engineers / physicists / scientists
    / people of good taste. :p

    --
    maestro8 - Mad Scientists for World Domination

    Those are my principles. If you don't like those, I have others. --
    Groucho Marx
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  7. Rowan said:

    *A helmet which is not used damages the wallet with a low energy
    impact.*


    Anything that is not used is a useless impact on the wallet, a helmet
    that is -not on a head- is unused, not one that isn't hit or damaged.
    I've lost track of the number of times that a branch scraped on my
    helmet while MUning but, while there wasn't any damage to the helmet, I
    consider that to have been part of the reason that I wore the helmet and
    well worth the cost.

    Rowan said:

    *Helmets suck!!!*


    Sounds to me like you have an attitude problem and please don't try to
    confuse you with facts.

    Rowan said:

    *Bicycles and unicycles are completely different vehicles, hence the
    laws for wearing helmets on bikes not unicycles. *


    Hmmm, lets see

    Quoted message said:

    they both are powered by a human, pedaling
    they both are ridden by an unprotected human (a passenger in a car is


    protected, a cycle rider is not)

    Quoted message said:

    many of the parts used on one are usable on the other.
    the frames are made of the same materials, you can even make a


    unicycle out of a bike

    Quoted message said:

    it's possible to ride a bicycle -in the same fashion- as a unicycle.

    So, just how much congruence do you need? Is it not the same because it
    has a different seat? – men’s and women’s road bike seats are different
    these days. They ARE similar, not identical, but very, very similar.
    Road bikes, trikes (I have a $4000 road trike), and mountain bikes are
    not the same, either. The only reason that there are not laws (and in
    many places the laws that apply to bicycles apply to unicycles
    {including helmets}), specifically for unicycles is that there is not
    enough of them to have come to the attention of the law makers as being
    different from bicycles. There aren’t many (any?) laws that specify
    road bike, trike, or mountain bike either.

    I personally don’t want ANY laws about what -I- have to do for my
    personal safety, I don’t believe the government, any government, has the
    responsibility or authority to do that, if someone does something stupid
    and get themselves injured or killed, it’s -their- fault and
    responsibility, not the governments. If the government is supposed to
    prevent us from doing something dumb, then we’ll find that we can’t do
    -ANYTHING- - breathing is dangerous (you might swallow a fly) and should
    be prohibited. That said, laws protecting children are what government
    is about and are appropriate – children, by definition, do not know what
    actions are and are not dangerous, adults make informed and intelligent
    decisions about personal safety (many make different conclusions than I
    do, that's their right).

    --
    brian.slater - Nellfurtiti, the Wonder Cat

    Brian C. Slater
    AKA: Snoopy

    Ok, I am now officially in my normal state of -advanced- confusion.
    Don't try to confuse me, it won't make any difference.

    "To not decide is to decide" - undecided
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  8. brian.slater said:

    *
    I personally don’t want ANY laws about what -I- have to do for my
    personal safety, I don’t believe the government, any government, has
    the responsibility or authority to do that, if someone does something
    stupid and get themselves injured or killed, it’s -their- fault and
    responsibility, not the governments. If the government is supposed to
    prevent us from doing something dumb, then we’ll find that we can’t do
    -ANYTHING- - breathing is dangerous (you might swallow a fly) and
    should be prohibited. That said, laws protecting children are what
    government is about and are appropriate – children, by definition, do
    not know what actions are and are not dangerous, adults make informed
    and intelligent decisions about personal safety (many make different
    conclusions than I do, that's their right). *

    The thing about these kind of examples is that they don't acknowledge
    the consequences of -not- doing them.

    ie with breathing, there is indeed a danger of swallowing a fly; but
    that danger is insignificant when compared with the certainty of death
    from not breathing.

    Same with seat belts- there are scenarios in which wearing a seat belt
    could kill you (eg, car sets on fire and the belt mechanism locks), but,
    on balance, far more lives are seaved by belts than are taken.

    Concerning laws governing what adults do where safety is concerned, I
    share your unease, but two things make me not want to automatically
    dismiss such laws-

    1. the number of logically dodgy arguments put forward against them (the
    '-everything- is dangerous..' being a prime example.

    2. -Consequences-- seat belts again being an example, when belt wearing
    was a choice, may drivers (probably the majority) choose not to belt up;
    so many died unnecessarily in accidents. Now, in places where belt
    wearing is a legal requirement, most do belt up, and, as a result, have
    found that there's nothing wrong with it; in fact, most drivers, on
    occasions where they may forget to belt up, will get a feeling of being
    very insecure.

    Most important, since the law was brought in, may lives have been
    saved.

    It can be argued that such laws do diminish personal choice, but my
    feeling is that the blanket 'all such laws are wrong' is not the way to
    go. I would argue that some such laws are justified, others aren't- it's
    a matter of finding a balance between personal choice, and the
    -consequences- of not having such laws.

    There's no greater restriction to ones ability to choose, than being
    dead 🙂

    --
    onewheeldave - Semi Skilled Unicyclist

    "You can't outrun Death forever.
    But you can make the [censored] work for it."

    --MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
    "Last of The Lancers"
    AFC 32
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  9. onewheeldave said:

    *Concerning laws governing what adults do where safety is concerned, I
    share your unease, but two things make me not want to automatically
    dismiss such laws-

    1. the number of logically dodgy arguments put forward against them
    (the '-everything- is dangerous..' being a prime example.

    2. -Consequences-- seat belts again being an example, when belt
    wearing was a choice, may drivers (probably the majority) choose not
    to belt up; so many died unnecessarily in accidents. Now, in places
    where belt wearing is a legal requirement, most do belt up, and, as a
    result, have found that there's nothing wrong with it; in fact, most
    drivers, on occasions where they may forget to belt up, will get a
    feeling of being very insecure.

    Most important, since the law was brought in, may lives have been
    saved.
    *


    Whether or not a law will protect me or not is not the point, there is
    a saying about giving up some personal freedom for any amount of
    security and, by letting the government dictate our actions, when it
    does not directly affect the safety of others, is letting the government
    remove the -possibility- of choice for -the governments perception- of
    safety. If you don’t think that the government would prohibit things
    like getting out of bed, getting into bed, taking a bath (Oh, my god,
    that’s dangerous!) and breathing to protect us from hazards that we, the
    innocent, uninformed public, don’t know about, then, I’m sorry, but you
    haven’t been watching. A high percentage of accidents happen in the
    home, therefore if there are no homes then the number of accidents will
    be reduced (this thought brought to you by govspeak). Remember, big
    government is where the backwards motorcycle was conceived as safer, it
    steered at the back and was driven in the front. They actually spent
    hundreds of thousands of our dollars to build it before they asked -any-
    motorcyclists what they thought. Think about driving your car
    backwards, turn, and putting on the brakes, can you say out of control
    at -every- stop and corner? Please, please, don’t try this; it’s just
    that the people who conceived the cycle didn’t. Big government is the
    only known life form that has many hands and no brains.

    Helmet -*laws*- have been shown to be counterproductive – areas that
    have instituted helmet laws have had the effect of reducing the number
    of cyclists by as much as 60%, which means instead of extending lives by
    19 years (by cycling without a helmet) in exchange for one year (by
    wearing a helmet), people choose to not cycle thereby losing the health
    benefits that would get them the 19 years. The government seems to feel
    that this is a good thing, that some people will die 19 years sooner.
    Even if you stipulate that if everyone wore helmets they’d get 20 years
    of longer, healthier lives instead of 19, but some choose not to cycle
    instead.

    There is still some question of whether or not bicycle helmets are
    actually effective or not. Lawmakers don’t seem to realize that
    requiring helmet usage is not the same a deciding to wear one. Did you
    know that the research shows that wearing a helmet reduces injuries to
    areas -not protected by the helmet- by 75%? Would this figure be larger
    if broken down into choice vs. required? I think it would. If I decide
    to wear a helmet, it means that I have a mindset that leads me to make
    decisions that will reduce the chance of injury, if I’m -required- to
    wear a helmet I don’t necessarily have the same mindset. Given this,
    does requiring helmet usage actually do anything? Even for motorcycling
    there is some question; the most vaunted studies are questionable, the
    incidences of motorcycle deaths were already on a downward trend before
    the -first- helmet law in the country (USA) was passed and the trend
    actually -flattened- a bit for the year after the law was passed.

    Do I not use safety belts or helmets? I’ve worn safety belts since the
    middle 1950s (long before they were standard in any car) and won’t ride
    10 feet with out a helmet; I just don’t believe that -LAWS- requiring me
    to are appropriate or effective.

    --
    brian.slater - Nellfurtiti, the Wonder Cat

    Brian C. Slater
    AKA: Snoopy

    Ok, I am now officially in my normal state of -advanced- confusion.
    Don't try to confuse me, it won't make any difference.

    "To not decide is to decide" - undecided
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  10. brian.slater said:

    *
    Helmet -laws*- have been shown to be counterproductive – areas that
    have instituted helmet laws have had the effect of reducing the number
    of cyclists by as much as 60%, which means instead of extending lives
    by 19 years (by cycling without a helmet) in exchange for one year (by
    wearing a helmet), people choose to not cycle thereby losing the
    health benefits that would get them the 19 years. The government
    seems to feel that this is a good thing, that some people will die 19
    years sooner. Even if you stipulate that if everyone wore helmets
    they’d get 20 years of longer, healthier lives instead of 19, but some
    choose not to cycle instead.
    .....................
    Do I not use safety belts or helmets? I’ve worn safety belts since the
    middle 1950s (long before they were standard in any car) and won’t
    ride 10 feet with out a helmet; I just don’t believe that -LAWS-
    requiring me to are appropriate or effective.

    What you say makes sense. I personally have no opinion on bike helmet
    laws, as I don't know what the consequences would be (ie would it save
    lives or have the opposite effect).

    However I stand by my points on seat belt laws (and therefore continue
    to disagree on the blanket opinion of all govt laws concerning safety
    being bad). That's because it's clear that many lives have been saved by
    the legal requirement to wear belts.

    It's good that you would -choose- to belt up even if it wasn't a legal
    requirement; however, many wouldn't.

    Here's another positive aspect of laws (IMO)- many who don't wear seat
    belts, cycle helmets, helmets for skateboarding etc; do so because of
    pressures such as fear of looking stupid, fear of being a minority, peer
    pressure.

    All those are real and powerful pressures that, in their own way,
    inpinge on personal liberty as much as any law.

    Laws that require -everyone- to use such safety precautions make fear of
    looking different/stupid invalid.

    --
    onewheeldave - Semi Skilled Unicyclist

    "You can't outrun Death forever.
    But you can make the [censored] work for it."

    --MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
    "Last of The Lancers"
    AFC 32
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  11. zod said:

    *I can't buy that theory at all, if a helmet weighed 7 pounds it'd be
    a stronger theory. But wearing a helmet does not increase the mass of
    your head SIGNIFICANTLY, the weight of a bicycle helmet is a small
    fraction of the weight of your head. *

    Of course you can't buy it, it's not for sale! Especially to someone
    who rides, erp, b*kes :o

    Face it, most people's neck muscles are pretty weak. Heck, a bad
    night's sleep can leave one with cramped muscles for the day. Unless
    trained regularly, the only task these muscles are really accustomed to
    is holding the head upright.

    Even helmetless, a bumpy ride leads to a bobbling head, which leads to
    stress on the neck muscles. Add 5 to 10% more mass to the top of the
    head (increasing both the rotational and translational inertia of the
    head) and one will end up with a sore neck sooner than later.

    5 or 10% might not seem significant if we were talking about stress on a
    more developed part of the body (i.e. arms, legs), but the average human
    neck can't do much work...

    --
    maestro8 - Mad Scientists for World Domination

    Those are my principles. If you don't like those, I have others. --
    Groucho Marx
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  12. maestro8 said:

    *Face it, most people's neck muscles are pretty weak. Heck, a bad
    night's sleep can leave one with cramped muscles for the day. Unless
    trained regularly, the only task these muscles are really accustomed
    to is holding the head upright.*

    The muscles in your neck are some of the strongest in the human body b/c
    they do support the head all day long......even people who do not work
    out have to support their head. A cramped neck from an improper sleeping
    position has nothing to do with the strength of your neck muscles.

    maestro8 said:

    *Even helmetless, a bumpy ride leads to a bobbling head, which leads
    to stress on the neck muscles. Add 5 to 10% more mass to the top of
    the head (increasing both the rotational and translational inertia of
    the head) and one will end up with a sore neck sooner than later.*

    I have mountain biked obessively for 7 years and have mUni'ed for 2.5
    years and always wear a helmet and have NEVER gotten a sore neck from
    riding on rough terrain. Helmet weight is insignificant.

    maestro8 said:

    *5 or 10% might not seem significant if we were talking about stress
    on a more developed part of the body (i.e. arms, legs), but the
    average human neck can't do much work... *

    Can't agree with you, the human neck is nothing but muscle, EVEN ON
    PEOPLE WHO DO NOT WORK OUT.

    --
    zod - Southern Fried mUni

    "We say grace and we say ma'am, if you aint into that we don't give a
    damn"
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  13. In addition to Zod's commments, I would think that bouncing around with
    a little extra weight on your head several times a week will just make
    the neck muscles stronger in the same way that doing any kind of
    physical work regulary causes the involved muscles to respond by
    increasing in size and strength.

    --
    S_Wallis - MUni Motivated

    "I am always doing that which I can not do, in order that I may learn
    how to do it." Pablo Picasso
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  14. First, heads have mass and when in motion have inertia. The helmet
    stopped Evan's head from hitting the pavement. Without it, his head
    would have continued to move until the muscles in his neck OR the
    pavement stopped it from moving. If it would have been the pavement then
    the back of Evan's head would have smacked it. How hard? Who knows?

    Second, what's all this fuss about trying to protect or save people?
    There's too many of them around anyway. Evan saved himself. Some, not so
    bright as Evan, may not. I say good for them. There is also a silly
    concern about them ending up in a vegetative state. Look around you.
    They're already there.

    --
    harper - TANKED at GASWORKS

    -Greg Harper

    B L U E S H I F T

    "My world view has come crashing down like a drunk clown on a giraffe,
    riding through a cactus patch..." -evil-nick on "Entry of the
    Gladiators"
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  15. harper said:

    *First, heads have mass and when in motion have inertia. *

    Technically anything with mass, no matter the state it's in (at rest or
    otherwis, has inertia. oops, I pulled a Naomi.

    --
    gerblefranklin - Trials Unicyclist

    http://gallery.unicyclist.com/Trials-Muni

    Nick's main man.

    "The genesis of genocide is like a Pagan religion; carefully hidden,
    woven into the holidays of a Christian."-Immortal Technique
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  16. gerblefranklin said:

    *Technically anything with mass, no matter the state it's in (at rest
    or otherwis, has inertia. oops, I pulled a Naomi. *

    Yes. I've been getting sloppy lately. Too much GameBox or XBoy, I
    guess.

    Don't forget to wear your helmet while milling. No...wait....those are
    safety glasses.

    --
    harper - TANKED at GASWORKS

    -Greg Harper

    B L U E S H I F T

    "My world view has come crashing down like a drunk clown on a giraffe,
    riding through a cactus patch..." -evil-nick on "Entry of the
    Gladiators"
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  17. U-Turn said:

    *Hmm, well I'm not witless, and would like to know if anyone else, of
    good taste or bad, was offended by my remarks. *

    Well I'll weigh in on behalf of the bad taste contingent. I was not
    offended by your remarks. I was, however, amused by this entire thread.
    Someone should start a separate thread to speculate on the average
    length of time in RSU between essentially identical debates on helmet
    usage. I feel like I've read 90% of this thread at least three times
    previously over the past two years.

    Take that with a grain of salt, since I'm _not_ the Tom that Gerble was
    defending against charges of stupidity. There's no defendin' me on that
    one...:p

    --
    tomblackwood - Registered Nurtz

    Tailgate at your own risk.....

    "By George! The man's a genius!"
    Murde Mental

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  18. harper said:

    *Don't forget to wear your helmet while milling.*


    Of if you have longish hair, a Hair Net. I know a guy who did a partial
    scalp job to himself after getting his hair caught in an industrual
    drill press.

    Hope this doesn't segue into a pro-con hair net arguement now...

    --
    UniBrier - Its Time to Ride

    Steve DeKoekkoek

    Hop Drop & Roll

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  19. UniBrier said:

    *Of if you have longish hair, a Hair Net. I know a guy who did a
    partial scalp job to himself after getting his hair caught in an
    industrual drill press.

    Hope this doesn't segue into a pro-con hair net arguement now... *

    What's a pro-con hair net? Is that a brand name?

    Mine goes in a ponytail or braid and then under the collar when I'm in
    the machine shop. Machinery always wins in the fight between
    skin/hair/fingers and electric motors.

    --
    harper - TANKED at GASWORKS

    -Greg Harper

    B L U E S H I F T

    "My world view has come crashing down like a drunk clown on a giraffe,
    riding through a cactus patch..." -evil-nick on "Entry of the
    Gladiators"
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  20. Harper is right on about the hair net or helmet in the shop. There is no
    pro-con hairnet debate among machinists, beause all the ones against
    hairtnets are in the hospital trying to re-grow their scalp.

    I got my hair caught in a bridgeport mill before. Luckily it was when
    the mill was off (a bit mroe than luckily, I hope, since i like to think
    I would never have my head that close to a mill's cutter while it's on).
    I had turned it off, hit the brake, but after I released the brake to
    examine the peace, the motor was still spinning. It grabbed my hair and
    got my forehed uncomfortably close to the cutter before my hand shot to
    the brake. I escaped with a scarred ego, a new sense of danger, and a
    serious need for shampoo to get all the lubricant out of my hair. Better
    than a friend of mine, who got his hand sucked into a drill press. He
    lost a large amount of skin, a few tendons, some muscle, and some other
    details I forgot about.

    Near the top of my list of priorities on machining projects is to make a
    brake for my mill, which is currently without one. As a temporary safety
    I'm running the belt pretty loose on the motor, so it is possible to
    stop things by jamming the piece into the cutter (feed the table
    quickly), forcing the belt to slip.

    --
    gerblefranklin - Trials Unicyclist

    http://gallery.unicyclist.com/Trials-Muni

    Nick's main man.

    "The genesis of genocide is like a Pagan religion; carefully hidden,
    woven into the holidays of a Christian."-Immortal Technique
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