GPS Tracklog Software

NomadVW said:

Garmin definitely makes great GPSrs, but their ability to keep up with the technology of tracking and GPS software formats has been lacking since it started to get more and more public. They're chasing formats that other people are developing.

The best resources for GPS software and tracking remains the geocachers over at forums.groundspeak.com. They're the most outspoken and avid users of the software.

VW

Thanks, I'll check out that link. BTW, my other project requires some manipulation of GPS tracklog files to another file format with a couple of columns not in tracklog files. The file I need for each data point is cumulative elapsed distance from the start (e.g., meters), magnetic heading and altitude. I think altitude is available in tracklog files, but I think elapsed distance and magnetic heading must be derived from the coordinates. Have you ever heard of somebody computing these variables from GPS tracklog files?

Did not want to distract from the topic of altering track logs, but I was in the process of creating a route to use while visiting family this weekend and since I was having trouble communicating between the Garmin Mapsource software and the Garmin Training Center software 🙄 I did find the following website that might be helpful to Edge 305 users in creating a course (file extension *.CRS) with an intuitive map program and upload to the Training Center and then upload to the 305.

Link

Felt_Rider said:

Did not want to distract from the topic of altering track logs, but I was in the process of creating a route to use while visiting family this weekend and since I was having trouble communicating between the Garmin Mapsource software and the Garmin Training Center software 🙄 I did find the following website that might be helpful to Edge 305 users in creating a course (file extension *.CRS) with an intuitive map program and upload to the Training Center and then upload to the 305.

Link

Thanks for the link. My testing is not going so well either. I have tried the GPS Trackmaker program. Really nice user interface, very fast and good help contents. I exported my tracking file from MotionBased in GPX format, successfully read it in Trackmaker and parsed it into three separate tracklogs and saved them in the GPX file format. But, when I attempted to upload the new files into MotionBased, it gave me an error for all three. So, there seems to be a compatibility problem between MotionBased and Trackmaker with the GPX format. Not very encouraging because GPX seems to be the universal format of choice. I'll try the Topofusion program next.

I had trouble importing a trial gpx file to motionbased this morning until I checked the box for allow time conflicts and then the gpx file uploaded to the inbox. Look for the small box on the upload tab if you haven't tried that yet.

Felt_Rider said:

I had trouble importing a trial gpx file to motionbased this morning until I checked the box for allow time conflicts and then the gpx file uploaded to the inbox. Look for the small box on the upload tab if you haven't tried that yet.

Thanks. I did see that checkbox and I also did not check it. I'll try it again. Thanks, FR.

RapDaddyo said:

Thanks. I did see that checkbox and I also did not check it. I'll try it again. Thanks, FR.

Trackmaker has been bad for me when using GPX to any other software. I'm not sure the last time Trackmaker was re-built to conform to the current GPX standards. There are other pieces of software that I have which won't interact with GPX files from Trackmaker.

ExpertGPS might be the software you are looking for to do your export with those fields. Granted, I use two pieces of software to do what you're looking for.

I used the software to build SQL databases of route points to create route maps for cycling routes in my area. It was a projec that sorta fizzled on me, but the best example of it is here:

http://www.cycleiwakuni.com/index.php?pageid=mapframes&frameid=1

I use GPS Trackmaker to edit tracklogs. It has the best ability to remove erroneous data and to manipulate and "clean up" tracklogs. I export it from GPS Trackmaker as a GPX and load it into ExpertGPS. The only reason I do this is because Expert GPS has a clean "Export to CSV" function that doesn't require me actually editing the GPX file.

The CSV files from ExpertGPS have column headings of:
Order
Elevation
Timestamp
Distance from Start
Distance to Next
Bearing
Latitude Deg
Latitude Min
Latitude Sec
Longitude Deg
Longitude Min
Longitude Sec

Anything that GPS trackmaker or ExpertGPS won't do, I wrote an Excel VBA app to do calculations for which take into account curvature of the earth, etc. I primarily use that application for the development of air traffic control airspace procedures, but it's been fortunate enough to overlap my hobbies from time to time.

VW

NomadVW said:

Trackmaker has been bad for me when using GPX to any other software. I'm not sure the last time Trackmaker was re-built to conform to the current GPX standards. There are other pieces of software that I have which won't interact with GPX files from Trackmaker.

ExpertGPS might be the software you are looking for to do your export with those fields. Granted, I use two pieces of software to do what you're looking for.

I used the software to build SQL databases of route points to create route maps for cycling routes in my area. It was a projec that sorta fizzled on me, but the best example of it is here:

cycleiwakuni.comindex.phpOpen ↗

I use GPS Trackmaker to edit tracklogs. It has the best ability to remove erroneous data and to manipulate and "clean up" tracklogs. I export it from GPS Trackmaker as a GPX and load it into ExpertGPS. The only reason I do this is because Expert GPS has a clean "Export to CSV" function that doesn't require me actually editing the GPX file.

The CSV files from ExpertGPS have column headings of:
Order
Elevation
Timestamp
Distance from Start
Distance to Next
Bearing
Latitude Deg
Latitude Min
Latitude Sec
Longitude Deg
Longitude Min
Longitude Sec

Anything that GPS trackmaker or ExpertGPS won't do, I wrote an Excel VBA app to do calculations for which take into account curvature of the earth, etc. I primarily use that application for the development of air traffic control airspace procedures, but it's been fortunate enough to overlap my hobbies from time to time.

VW

I'll look at ExpertGPS. My experiment with Topofusion was equally unsuccessful. I was able to open the GPX file exported from MotionBased, I parsed the file into three parts, cut the segments I wasn't interested in from each segment and saved them as separate GPX files. But, I had the same problem uploading the GPX files created by Topofusion into MotionBased (using both upload methods and using the time conflicts switch). So far no joy. I'll look at ExpertGPS.

I need a file conversion utility to convert a tracklog file into a file with the following columns:
Elapsed distance
Magnetic heading
Road gradient
Altitude
Latitude Deg
Latitude Min
Latitude Sec
Longitude Deg
Longitude Min
Longitude Sec

It looks to me as though the CSV file from ExpertGPS has everything except road gradient. That can be computed from the elevation change and distance. So, it looks as though ExpertGPS has it all.

NomadVW said:

ExpertGPS might be the software you are looking for to do your export with those fields. Granted, I use two pieces of software to do what you're looking for.

VW, I checked the ExpertGPS site and it appears they do not have a trial version of their program. If you have the latest version, would you mind posting a GPX file created by ExpertGPS so that I can test it with MotionBased. So far, I am 2 for 2 on incompatibility with MotionBased. I sort of hate to pay $60 to find out that ExpertGPS's GPX format is also incompatible with MotionBased. Otherwise, it looks like the perfect solution. I like the control over export files.

RapDaddyo said:

VW, I checked the ExpertGPS site and it appears they do not have a trial version of their program. If you have the latest version, would you mind posting a GPX file created by ExpertGPS so that I can test it with MotionBased. So far, I am 2 for 2 on incompatibility with MotionBased. I sort of hate to pay $60 to find out that ExpertGPS's GPX format is also incompatible with MotionBased. Otherwise, it looks like the perfect solution. I like the control over export files.

Here's a copy of our local hill climb I did in November. This includes waypoints and elevation data, so it should have everything you need.

http://www.cycleiwakuni.com/download.php?file=zenitsubo_climb.gpx

NomadVW said:

Here's a copy of our local hill climb I did in November. This includes waypoints and elevation data, so it should have everything you need.

cycleiwakuni.comdownload.phpOpen ↗

Perfect! The file uploaded to MB on the first try. It seems to be all there. So, you created this file with ExpertGPS?

RapDaddyo said:

Perfect! The file uploaded to MB on the first try. It seems to be all there. So, you created this file with ExpertGPS?

I used my Garmin GPSMAP 60CS to go record the route, I downloaded it to GPS Trackmaker and "cleaned it up." I removed errant points that might occur where satellite coverage was no good. I saved it as a GPX, loaded it into ExpertGPS and re-saved it as a GPX. The folks at Topografix, makers of ExpertGPS, have really stayed on the forefront of GPX standards, so I think most folks are using what they are making. ExpertGPS also loads almost all other software formats of a GPX file.

Sound tedious? Yep... it is. That's why I gave up on GPS mapmaking as a hobby. I would probably do more work with ExpertGPS with track editing but their map calibration utilities are not so good, and in Japan I don't get the map overlays available to the folks in the states using ExpertGPS. I use scanned/downloaded map images calibrated with GPS Trackmaker to ensure/doublecheck my tracks that they overlay the roads they are supposed to overlay.

NomadVW said:

I used my Garmin GPSMAP 60CS to go record the route, I downloaded it to GPS Trackmaker and "cleaned it up." I removed errant points that might occur where satellite coverage was no good. I saved it as a GPX, loaded it into ExpertGPS and re-saved it as a GPX. The folks at Topografix, makers of ExpertGPS, have really stayed on the forefront of GPX standards, so I think most folks are using what they are making. ExpertGPS also loads almost all other software formats of a GPX file.

Sound tedious? Yep... it is. That's why I gave up on GPS mapmaking as a hobby. I would probably do more work with ExpertGPS with track editing but their map calibration utilities are not so good, and in Japan I don't get the map overlays available to the folks in the states using ExpertGPS. I use scanned/downloaded map images calibrated with GPS Trackmaker to ensure/doublecheck my tracks that they overlay the roads they are supposed to overlay.

I see what you mean, but it's really great that there is at least one package that creates the correct interchange file format. Thanks again. If you ever want to parse files or do match analysis, give me a shout.

As follow-up, I have downloaded and tested GPS Trackmaker, Topofusion and ExpertGPS. I was able to open and edit my track file (GPX format downloaded from MotionBased) with all three and all three can create GPX files. But, only ExpertGPS's GPX file was compatible with MotionBased. So, my vote goes to ExpertGPS. BTW, ExpertGPS doesn't tell you they have a trial version, but the download version is in fact a 31-day trial version. So, you can test it before laying out the $60 price. I have found ExpertGPS to be fast and user-friendly. I have exported a track file in CSV format and that meets most of my needs for TT pacing plans. The elapsed distance is not sufficiently precise (precision = .01 mi), but I think I can derive a more precise distance number from the coordinates (as soon as I find the algorithm). With a more precise distance number, I can then compute road gradient. So, I think I'm good to go thanks to NomadVW and ExpertGPS. Thanks to all who made suggestions.

RapDaddyo said:

The elapsed distance is not sufficiently precise (precision = .01 mi), but I think I can derive a more precise distance number from the coordinates (as soon as I find the algorithm). With a more precise distance number, I can then compute road gradient. So, I think I'm good to go thanks to NomadVW and ExpertGPS. Thanks to all who made suggestions.

My VBA app for excel will go much further in decimals than the ExpertGPS extracted CSV. I'll double check some values today, but as I use it in airspace/procedures development - and the FAA uses the same algorithms in their air traffic control procedures development, I'm certain it will meet your precision requirements. The input format is a little different thatn what ExpertGPS spits out so I have to concatanate the values manually, but I could add something to make that work in a few minutes work. Just not on Christmas day :P

The math is about 20 steps long when taking into consideration curvature of the earth, etc. The algorithms also currently work in nautical miles and feet, so I'd need to do some conversions there to spit out statute miles.

NomadVW said:

My VBA app for excel will go much further in decimals than the ExpertGPS extracted CSV. I'll double check some values today, but as I use it in airspace/procedures development - and the FAA uses the same algorithms in their air traffic control procedures development, I'm certain it will meet your precision requirements. The input format is a little different thatn what ExpertGPS spits out so I have to concatanate the values manually, but I could add something to make that work in a few minutes work. Just not on Christmas day :P

The math is about 20 steps long when taking into consideration curvature of the earth, etc. The algorithms also currently work in nautical miles and feet, so I'd need to do some conversions there to spit out statute miles.

Wow, that sounds awesome. The end result is a file that I can use for development of a pacing plan and enroute synchronization. So, the desire for more precision with the cumulative distance is to derive the road gradient to a precision of at least 1%, preferably 0.1%. So, the file I want to build would have the original GPS columns (e.g., elapsed time, latitude, longitude, altitude, etc.) plus elapsed distance and magnetic heading (there is a bearing column in the ExpertGPS file, but I haven't checked yet to see if it is magnetic or true). It sounds as though your VBA app has most of this. If you get a minute to look at it when it is convenient, I would appreciate it. I'll end up writing it in C++, but the computational algorithms would be awesome.

NomadVW said:

I'm certain it will meet your precision requirements. The input format is a little different thatn what ExpertGPS spits out so I have to concatanate the values manually, but I could add something to make that work in a few minutes work. Just not on Christmas day :P

The other thing I would wonder is how precise your GPS data is expected to be. If you are using GPS data as represented on a Google Maps or with a GPS receiver in motion through a turn, your accuracy is more likely to be hindered by the map or GPS than it is the accuracy of your mapping software. Additionally, the number of track points will play a significant role in the reduction of accuracy. From a geometric sense, a 180 degree turn in the road which only has 5 trackpoints to outline it will seem "shorter" than the same 180 degree turn in the road outlined by 20 trackpoints.

I would put google map's or any other online "click and drop" map's accuracy at no better than +/- 500 feet ( about .1 miles ) To obtain the accuracy necessary to go beyond .1 mile, the maps or map data typically needs rather stringent criteria. And while the GPS claims accuracy down to 10, 15, 30 feet - for that to be a reliable measure even the USGS has further requirements based on view of the entire horizon, etc..

All this to say, I think as you find you demand accuracy from GPS tracklogs, you'll come to find out how extremely... um... not accurate the information is without a significant amount of interpretation of known distance versus computed distance.

The course GPX I uploaded shows as 7.41 km in the CSV export. The greatest difference in value between my algorithms which go out to 15 decimal places, and those given in KM from the CSV export is: 0.004958
.004958 km (roughly 9 feet)

RapDaddyo said:

(there is a bearing column in the ExpertGPS file, but I haven't checked yet to see if it is magnetic or true). It sounds as though your VBA app has most of this.

Yep, it's appearing it exports in True. I'll double check it against any preferences I have set in ExpertGPS.

The functions I have written in VBA are:

INVRAD - Determine a bearing (true) between two lat long points
DISTFT - Determine the distance in feet between two lat long points
DIRECT - Determine the lat/long at a location based on original lat/long and true bearing and distance from original location
INTXN - Determine the lat/long at which two lines intersect based on two original lat longs and two bearings
TANG - Determine the tangential location of a lat/long based on a two locations, a bearing and a radius.

The parsing for the data (in order to interact with a handful of other formats) requires latlongs to be in the DDMMSS.sssss format.

NomadVW said:

The other thing I would wonder is how precise your GPS data is expected to be. If you are using GPS data as represented on a Google Maps or with a GPS receiver in motion through a turn, your accuracy is more likely to be hindered by the map or GPS than it is the accuracy of your mapping software. Additionally, the number of track points will play a significant role in the reduction of accuracy. From a geometric sense, a 180 degree turn in the road which only has 5 trackpoints to outline it will seem "shorter" than the same 180 degree turn in the road outlined by 20 trackpoints.

I would be using the trackfile from an actual ride of a course with a GPS unit with a good GPS receiver (e.g., Garmin Edge) and with data recording at its maximum rate (e.g., 1 second). I would never trust a course derived from maps other than for a first approximation of a pacing plan. The altitude data to within a few dozen feet (or more) is sufficient. The most important datum is road gradient (for which relative altitude is sufficient even if absolute altitude is wrong). Magnetic heading is for wind considerations and for course synchronization, so it doesn't need to be extremely accurate (e.g., +/- 5 degrees).

Off to do Christmas morning here. I'll drop you a PM this afternoon and discuss mathematics and conversion from VBA to C++. There's a lot of variable definition that VBA allows sloppy I took advantage of.

NomadVW said:

Off to do Christmas morning here. I'll drop you a PM this afternoon and discuss mathematics and conversion from VBA to C++. There's a lot of variable definition that VBA allows sloppy I took advantage of.

Merry Christmas. Have a nice holiday. Give me a shout when things quiet down over there.