Goodbye

<snip>

Quoted message said:

But it struck me as I was enduring the pain of that
massage that participation in the newsgroups gets more painful by the
year, but no longer holds any particular benefit for me. Technical
discussions break down into pointless bluster as often as not (ala
"jim beam"😉 and discussions about social issues have long since ceased
to hold any promise of civil discourse.

And it only gets more and more shrill as time goes by.

<snip>

As a long time reader (and a very infrequent contributor) I'm also
finding that participating in this newsgroup is becoming less and less
enjoyable. I don't mind an occasional, spirited political or technical
discussion. But the venom that some people pour into their posts is
totally uncalled for.

What is sad is that the wit and humor has slowly drained out of this
news group as the temperature of the political debate has risen. I used
to count on rec.bicycles.misc to provide me with a few good chuckles
every day. Now those funny posts are few and far between.

I know that we live in a f---ed up world and it is hard to shut the
problems of the world out. And I certainly don't advocate that anyone
ignore the problems our world is facing. But, come on people; RBM is a
bicycle discussion group. Bicycling is supposed to be fun! RBM is
supposed to be centered around the joy and fun of riding bicycles.

Mark, all the best to you. We are going to miss you here. Hopefully you
and I can get together sometime and go for a bike ride. A bet it would
be fun.

--

Paul D Oosterhout
I work for SAIC (but I don't speak for SAIC)

Mark Hickey said:

So, it's with absolute joy and anticipation that I bid you all a fond
farewell.

Take care, Mark.

Hell, we all know that usenet is dead anyway, and we are just sifting
through the ashes. Between the "forums" diverting a lot of more
specialized discussions and energy, and "angry young men" determined to
turn any topic into their particular soapbox, the signal/noise level is
not looking good.

Hey, at least that's one less conservative..... No, I didn't mean that.
Some of my best friends are conservatives. Not many, but some.

--

David L. Johnson

Arguing with an engineer is like mud wrestling with a pig...
You soon find out the pig likes it!

Bill Sornson said:

Quoted message said:

I hope you'll reconsider at some point. I don't agree with your
politics, but I think you've been a voice of reason on matters of
bicycle technology, which this list is purportedly about. The reign
of the yippy dogs seems once step closer with your departure.

I second that.

Quoted message said:

I hope Mark will reconsider because SHUTTING OUT OPPOSING VOICES is an
obvious tactic of a certain political movement nowadays, and by his bowing
out it's playing right into their pocket-picking hands.

I would suggest that it is a tactic of _many_ political movements
nowadays, but I don't want this, too, to become a political rant.

There comes a time, though, when there is no point in trying to remain
involved. Many newsgroups have long since died completely because of
this. I used to find significant religious discussions on my particular
religious-stripe group (soc.religion.quaker), I used to find significant
advise and problems on sci.math.symbolic, and helpful advice on the
comp.os.linux groups. Now, none of these are worth the trouble, even
with bozofilters. Others are just dead. Hell, these rec.bicycles.*
groups are probably the best left aside from moderated groups, and even
those are losing ground quickly.

--

David L. Johnson

Arguing with an engineer is like mud wrestling with a pig...
You soon find out the pig likes it!

John Forrest Tomlinson said:

On Wed, 25 Apr 2007 06:33:12 -0700, Mark Hickey <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

JT's pernicious accusations are just the latest in a long series, but
they're the ones that opened my eyes to the reality that this is no
longer any fun, and there are many better ways I can spend my time. I
have a very full life, a wonderful family (including four new
granddaughters). I can ride my bike more.

You're a coward. All you have to do is not talk about politics and I
wont bring up your more disgusting political views. Or even killfile
me.

Actually you've been a coward and a bully (threatening to sue me for
libel!).

Well, you just made Mark's point.

--

David L. Johnson

Arguing with an engineer is like mud wrestling with a pig...
You soon find out the pig likes it!

David L. Johnson said:

I would suggest that it is a tactic of _many_ political movements
nowadays, but I don't want this, too, to become a political rant.

I don't care to read anybody else's political views here, even if I
agree with them. It is not easy, but I filter all those topics (and
people who can't help replying) so that the post is deleted and I never
see it again.

These are bike newsgroups, not political pages. If it gets to where
there are not many posts on topic, there are plenty of other good things
to do with my time. I would not beg anyone to stay if they can't keep
from getting into it with other posters. Delete the newgroups for a
while. If you don't miss them, you made a wise choice.

In rec.bicycles.misc David L. Johnson said:

Hell, we all know that usenet is dead anyway, and we are just sifting
through the ashes. Between the "forums" diverting a lot of more
specialized discussions and energy, and "angry young men" determined to
turn any topic into their particular soapbox, the signal/noise level is
not looking good.

Indeed. The Usenet is dying simply because it isn't moderated. I guess
it worked better 10 to 15 years ago when the standard of Internet users
was higher, but now most newsgroups are playgrounds of small number of
anti-social idiots who successfully drive everybody else to moderated
web forums and mailing lists.

Antti

Good bye Mark. Thanks for the many insightful postings over the years.

Phil H

"Mark Hickey" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I had an epiphany. Last night, I was getting a painful deep massage
to help with the effects of my bike accident in 2003. The nice young
woman was leaning heavily toward me to better drive the point of her
elbow into the very sore muscles of my neck. I thought "I'm paying
her to hurt me this much - I don't really have to put up with the
pain". Of course, I didn't stop her because I benefit from the
process, however painful.

Which brings me to the current state of the rec.bicycles newsgroups.
I've been frequenting them for over 15 years, and (particularly in the
early years) have learned much, and tried to share what I know through
those years. But it struck me as I was enduring the pain of that
massage that participation in the newsgroups gets more painful by the
year, but no longer holds any particular benefit for me. Technical
discussions break down into pointless bluster as often as not (ala
"jim beam"😉 and discussions about social issues have long since ceased
to hold any promise of civil discourse.

And it only gets more and more shrill as time goes by.

Character assassination has become the chief tool for those who prefer
to avoid facts that run contrary to their world view, and I've
increasingly been the target of these attacks.

It strikes me that most of the "high-content contributors" have also
left these newsgroups over the years, and it's easy to see why. I
suspect that the content to noise ratio is only going to get worse as
time goes by.

JT's pernicious accusations are just the latest in a long series, but
they're the ones that opened my eyes to the reality that this is no
longer any fun, and there are many better ways I can spend my time. I
have a very full life, a wonderful family (including four new
granddaughters). I can ride my bike more.

So, it's with absolute joy and anticipation that I bid you all a fond
farewell. I've got the same kind of feeling that you get when you're
finishing up a tedious task before walking out the door on a long
vacation. I'm psyched. For this, I can only thank JT for doing his
part to bring this long, glorious waste of time to an end.

Happy trails,

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $795 ti frame

"Antti Salonen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In rec.bicycles.misc David L. Johnson said:

Hell, we all know that usenet is dead anyway, and we are just sifting
through the ashes. Between the "forums" diverting a lot of more
specialized discussions and energy, and "angry young men" determined to
turn any topic into their particular soapbox, the signal/noise level is
not looking good.

Indeed. The Usenet is dying simply because it isn't moderated. I guess
it worked better 10 to 15 years ago when the standard of Internet users
was higher, but now most newsgroups are playgrounds of small number of
anti-social idiots who successfully drive everybody else to moderated
web forums and mailing lists.

Antti

Yep. From trolls to rampant spam, it's becoming the wasteland. Having said
that, RBT is still better than most. Have you been to alt.mountain-bike?
Talk about a soapbox for cooler-than-thou sophomorism.

David L. Johnson said:

Bill Sornson said:

Quoted message said:

I hope you'll reconsider at some point. I don't agree with your
politics, but I think you've been a voice of reason on matters of
bicycle technology, which this list is purportedly about. The reign
of the yippy dogs seems once step closer with your departure.

Please watch your attributions; I did not write the above.

David L. Johnson said:

John Forrest Tomlinson said:

On Wed, 25 Apr 2007 06:33:12 -0700, Mark Hickey <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

JT's pernicious accusations are just the latest in a long series, but
they're the ones that opened my eyes to the reality that this is no
longer any fun, and there are many better ways I can spend my time. I
have a very full life, a wonderful family (including four new
granddaughters). I can ride my bike more.

You're a coward. All you have to do is not talk about politics and I
wont bring up your more disgusting political views. Or even killfile
me.

Actually you've been a coward and a bully (threatening to sue me for
libel!).

Well, you just made Mark's point.

It's not just Mark's point -- it's mine as well. I'm harsh.That pales
in significance to promoting torture and supporting the current
attacks on the rule of the law in the US.

I can't have a "civil"discussion about these things. So if Mark can't
deal, he shouldn't start. He shouldn't have started with me.

--
JT
****************************
Remove "remove" to reply
Visit http://www.jt10000.com
****************************

Pat said:

Quoted message said:

What is the Left so afraid of? Why does it want to SILENCE opposing
opinions? ("The debate is over." "There is Consensus." Its talking
heads name-call all the time, but let someone on the Right answer in
kind and it's "hate speech" and the "politics of personal
destruction". Hypocrisy is what it is.) Instead of debating issues,
the left goes personal almost immediately; then it has a conniption
fit if someone calls it.
BS

Oh, Bill, please! Today I was listening to Mark Davis calling Pat
Tillman's family "despicable" because they disagree with Pres. Bush.
He was calling for radio stations and television stations not to give
them any air time because of their political views. Then, I turned
to another station and there was Bill O'Reilly claiming that Rosie
O'Donnell and anyone who agreed with her did not deserve a voice on
the airways!
And you sit there and write that "the Left" is doing this! There is
plenty hypocrisy to go around, Bill. You've just proved it!

I was referring to mainstream discourse; never heard of Mark Davis. (And
the last time I heard Bill O'Reilly talk about Rosie he was /defending/ her
right to free (even if disgraceful) speech.)

Why on earth would you listen to people you dislike, anyway?

On a smaller scale, just read Mark's thread on Floyd to see the latest .rec
example.

Pat said:

Quoted message said:

What is the Left so afraid of? Why does it want to SILENCE opposing
opinions? ("The debate is over." "There is Consensus." Its talking
heads name-call all the time, but let someone on the Right answer in
kind and it's "hate speech" and the "politics of personal
destruction". Hypocrisy is what it is.) Instead of debating issues,
the left goes personal almost immediately; then it has a conniption
fit if someone calls it.
BS

Oh, Bill, please! Today I was listening to Mark Davis calling Pat
Tillman's family "despicable" because they disagree with Pres. Bush.
He was calling for radio stations and television stations not to give
them any air time because of their political views. Then, I turned
to another station and there was Bill O'Reilly claiming that Rosie
O'Donnell and anyone who agreed with her did not deserve a voice on
the airways!
And you sit there and write that "the Left" is doing this! There is
plenty hypocrisy to go around, Bill. You've just proved it!

PS: You not only deleted the context of the above (Tomlinson's comment that
he'd refrain from attacking Mark as long as Mark stayed out of political
threads -- hence my question what are "they" afraid of), you also deleted
ALL attributions.

FWIW

Quoted message said:

What is the Left so afraid of? Why does it want to SILENCE opposing
opinions? ("The debate is over." "There is Consensus." Its talking
heads name-call all the time, but let someone on the Right answer in kind
and it's "hate speech" and the "politics of personal destruction".
Hypocrisy is what it is.) Instead of debating issues, the left goes
personal almost immediately; then it has a conniption fit if someone calls
it.
BS

Oh, Bill, please! Today I was listening to Mark Davis calling Pat Tillman's
family "despicable" because they disagree with Pres. Bush. He was calling
for radio stations and television stations not to give them any air time
because of their political views. Then, I turned to another station and
there was Bill O'Reilly claiming that Rosie O'Donnell and anyone who agreed
with her did not deserve a voice on the airways!

And you sit there and write that "the Left" is doing this! There is plenty
hypocrisy to go around, Bill. You've just proved it!

Pat in TX

Quoted message said:

"Mark Hickey" --I don't always agree with your political views, but I have
found you to be rational and reasonable and willing to listen to differing
opinions. You have never been spiteful and hateful. I will miss your
posts.

Pat in TX

Antti Salonen said:

The Usenet is dying simply because it isn't moderated.

I'm confused about something. Rec.Bicycles.Offroad completely DIED because
it was moderated -- I thought to keep Vandedrivel {tm} out? Weirdly enough,
spam got thru fairly regularly, but on-topic posts took forever to show
up...

How is it he (MV) doesn't post in these two rec groups? Is their some
"master filter" that blocks his stuff?

Maybe I'll go look for an ALT cycling group besides AM-B...

Bill Sornson said:

David L. Johnson said:

Bill Sornson said:

> I hope you'll reconsider at some point. I don't agree with your
> politics, but I think you've been a voice of reason on matters of
> bicycle technology, which this list is purportedly about. The reign
> of the yippy dogs seems once step closer with your departure.

Please watch your attributions; I did not write the above.

Of course you didn't - it's obvious from the number of quote characters
that preceed the quoted part.

"John Forrest Tomlinson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

David L. Johnson said:

John Forrest Tomlinson said:

On Wed, 25 Apr 2007 06:33:12 -0700, Mark Hickey <[email hidden]>
wrote:

> JT's pernicious accusations are just the latest in a long series, but
> they're the ones that opened my eyes to the reality that this is no
> longer any fun, and there are many better ways I can spend my time. I
> have a very full life, a wonderful family (including four new
> granddaughters). I can ride my bike more.

You're a coward. All you have to do is not talk about politics and I
wont bring up your more disgusting political views. Or even killfile
me.

Actually you've been a coward and a bully (threatening to sue me for
libel!).

Well, you just made Mark's point.

It's not just Mark's point -- it's mine as well. I'm harsh.That pales
in significance to promoting torture and supporting the current
attacks on the rule of the law in the US.

I can't have a "civil"discussion about these things. So if Mark can't
deal, he shouldn't start. He shouldn't have started with me.

--
JT

Careful, you may break your arm trying to pat yourself on the back.
Backoff, you're not the hot [censored] you think you are, nor as informed you
would like to us to think you are.

"Mark Hickey" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I had an epiphany. (snip)

I dunno Mark,

People who are thoughtful and considerate enough to post a Usenet newsgroup
goodbye msg, don't stay gone. They might lurk for awhile, and then gradually
come back to post. I think helping people is in their genes - J.

Have fun, get some miles in.

I was always fascinated how someone who talked such sense about bikes, could
seem so wacko about politics. Which was kind of fun and thought provoking.

Take care.

--
Andy Morris

AndyAtJinkasDotFreeserve.Co.UK

--
Posted via NewsDemon.com - Premium Uncensored Newsgroup Service
------->>>>>>http://www.NewsDemon.com<<<<<<------
Unlimited Access, Anonymous Accounts, Uncensored Broadband Access

"Antti Salonen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In rec.bicycles.misc David L. Johnson said:

Hell, we all know that usenet is dead anyway, and we are just sifting
through the ashes. Between the "forums" diverting a lot of more
specialized discussions and energy, and "angry young men" determined to
turn any topic into their particular soapbox, the signal/noise level is
not looking good.

Indeed. The Usenet is dying simply because it isn't moderated. I guess
it worked better 10 to 15 years ago when the standard of Internet users
was higher, but now most newsgroups are playgrounds of small number of
anti-social idiots who successfully drive everybody else to moderated
web forums and mailing lists.

Antti

Au contraire, IMHO unmoderated Usenet is not dying. It has always appealed
to a select audience. Some people just love the thought of their opinion
being broadcast to Usenet users around the world, WITHOUT a moderator. It is
text-based, no frills, no fancy graphics. Just a free exchange of ideas,
with no one telling them what they can or cannot say. Classic - J.