General fitness, health and nutrition · Public discussion

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General fitness, health and nutrition
Published
29 July 2003
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30 July 2003
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Peter Moran
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  1. Another view of the Issels paper.

    Hi Peter,

    It was amusing to read this ancient gem of German medical wisdom and to
    brush up my knowledge of the German language. The paper dates from 1959
    !!!and is a bit long to translate but here is what I found to be important:
    It starts with reflections on what is cancer, citing studies from 1930ies
    ,1940ies, 1950ies, and concluding that cancer is a failure of the immune
    system (what is partially close to the truth) Thus the immunotherapy has to
    restore the immune system and also bring the body in balance again. The
    principle of that therapy is the introduction in the body of anti-tumor
    antibodies (either in an active or a passive way) Passive is the
    administration of a cancer ant-serum (e.g. Sarvinal = ??? WB : never heard
    of that one, must be one those patent German wonder medicines that have
    disappeared since) For active immunization there are several methods:
    Inta-cutane implantation of a tumor fragment from the patients own tumor But
    take care! In some experiments with lyophilised own tumor injections,
    sometimes the cancer started to grow faster if the dose was too high (Kaliis
    and NewTon 1949) Even experiments with irradiation in the 30ies are
    explained as immunotherapy. The future is injection with bacterial products
    to stimulate the immune reponse. (comment WB: this reminds me of experiments
    in the 50s scratching large parts of the body and rubbing tuberculine in it,
    some quacks still do

    this)

    Then follow some reflections on the role of cortisone and other hormones.
    (WB : this was written long before we differentiated hormone dependant

    tumors)

    Follows a praise of the Coley-Toxine -Therapy (injection with a brew of
    streptococci and something that sounds like a chicken soup recipe :-) And
    then the Issels therapy: Some products are prepared in the Dutch institute
    for tropical medicine in Leiden (serum enzymes and plasmines) 1. a series of
    injection with a mix of bacteria, some of them are extracted from tumors
    2.biological food, care for the soul, positive thinking 3. blood
    transfusions and blood washing according the Wehrli method

    (=???)

    and now the results:

    They retrospectively selected cases from the files of the Korthof Dutch
    university clinic in Leiden (all before 1954)

    Total of 252 selected out of 1800, see table 1

    It is a mix of many different malignancies, but all of them had some form of
    metastasis or recidive and they compared them with the results of similar
    cases of the Schwager and Rossolec clinics that were treated with the
    "immunological" Issel therapy., 242 in total To compare uterine tumors the
    took the data from the work of Dalicho They looked at the 5 year survival of
    that group and found it to be 16.6%, or 42 out of 242 that was better than
    the "normal" therapy. My comment: To compare the figures from a mix of
    totally different cancers and different hospitals is not very convincing,
    but it is an interesting view like a time capsule, on how research was done
    50 years ago. The intentions were good, the confounding factors and bias
    were not so well known then. To use this study today to promote a cancer
    therapy is plainly hilarious.

    Also on that web site: they were praised by a visiting English professor who
    cautiously proposed to do a controlled study. I did not find the date when
    this was proposed or if the study was ever done. The most recent study they
    cite dates from 1970, and smells also fishy because they compare their
    successes with world averages , whatever that means. No mention of
    inclusion -exclusion criteria, intention to treat or whatever. If it looks
    like a quack, sounds like one.....

  2. (The scary thing about this is that nothing can be concluded from this data,
    so they might as well put up pictures of cars or something)
    Anyone doing this therapy would have to do it on the basis of trust and
    hope.
    I have asked them for details of the double blind study mentioned, hopefully
    they will produce these (if indeed it was ever done)
    Do you know anyone who has contact with John Anderson MD?.
    Anth
    [snip]

  3. In the 1950's would this type of study be considered to reach a valid
    conclusion?
    (If so then maybe all the figures from those eras on cancer would be wrong?)
    Anth

    "Peter Moran" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Another view of the Issels paper.

    Hi Peter,

    It was amusing to read this ancient gem of German medical wisdom and to
    brush up my knowledge of the German language. The paper dates from 1959
    !!!and is a bit long to translate but here is what I found to be


    important:

    Quoted message said:

    It starts with reflections on what is cancer, citing studies from 1930ies
    ,1940ies, 1950ies, and concluding that cancer is a failure of the immune
    system (what is partially close to the truth) Thus the immunotherapy has


    to

    Quoted message said:

    restore the immune system and also bring the body in balance again. The
    principle of that therapy is the introduction in the body of anti-tumor
    antibodies (either in an active or a passive way) Passive is the
    administration of a cancer ant-serum (e.g. Sarvinal = ??? WB : never heard
    of that one, must be one those patent German wonder medicines that have
    disappeared since) For active immunization there are several methods:
    Inta-cutane implantation of a tumor fragment from the patients own tumor


    But

    Quoted message said:

    take care! In some experiments with lyophilised own tumor injections,
    sometimes the cancer started to grow faster if the dose was too high


    (Kaliis

    Quoted message said:

    and NewTon 1949) Even experiments with irradiation in the 30ies are
    explained as immunotherapy. The future is injection with bacterial


    products

    Quoted message said:

    to stimulate the immune reponse. (comment WB: this reminds me of


    experiments

    Quoted message said:

    in the 50s scratching large parts of the body and rubbing tuberculine in


    it,

    Quoted message said:

    some quacks still do

    this)

    Then follow some reflections on the role of cortisone and other hormones.
    (WB : this was written long before we differentiated hormone dependant

    tumors)

    Follows a praise of the Coley-Toxine -Therapy (injection with a brew of
    streptococci and something that sounds like a chicken soup recipe :-) And
    then the Issels therapy: Some products are prepared in the Dutch institute
    for tropical medicine in Leiden (serum enzymes and plasmines) 1. a series


    of

    Quoted message said:

    injection with a mix of bacteria, some of them are extracted from tumors
    2.biological food, care for the soul, positive thinking 3. blood
    transfusions and blood washing according the Wehrli method

    (=???)

    and now the results:

    They retrospectively selected cases from the files of the Korthof Dutch
    university clinic in Leiden (all before 1954)

    Total of 252 selected out of 1800, see table 1

    It is a mix of many different malignancies, but all of them had some form


    of

    Quoted message said:

    metastasis or recidive and they compared them with the results of similar
    cases of the Schwager and Rossolec clinics that were treated with the
    "immunological" Issel therapy., 242 in total To compare uterine tumors the
    took the data from the work of Dalicho They looked at the 5 year survival


    of

    Quoted message said:

    that group and found it to be 16.6%, or 42 out of 242 that was better than
    the "normal" therapy. My comment: To compare the figures from a mix of
    totally different cancers and different hospitals is not very convincing,
    but it is an interesting view like a time capsule, on how research was


    done

    Quoted message said:

    50 years ago. The intentions were good, the confounding factors and bias
    were not so well known then. To use this study today to promote a cancer
    therapy is plainly hilarious.

    Also on that web site: they were praised by a visiting English professor


    who

    Quoted message said:

    cautiously proposed to do a controlled study. I did not find the date when
    this was proposed or if the study was ever done. The most recent study


    they

    Quoted message said:

    cite dates from 1970, and smells also fishy because they compare their
    successes with world averages , whatever that means. No mention of
    inclusion -exclusion criteria, intention to treat or whatever. If it looks
    like a quack, sounds like one.....

  4. "Anth" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    (The scary thing about this is that nothing can be concluded from this


    data,

    Quoted message said:

    so they might as well put up pictures of cars or something)
    Anyone doing this therapy would have to do it on the basis of trust and
    hope.
    I have asked them for details of the double blind study mentioned,


    hopefully

    Quoted message said:

    they will produce these (if indeed it was ever done)

    Let me know if you find out any more. I think they are already shown to be
    untrustworthy through trying to create the impression of high cure rates in
    advanced metastatic cancer via this old data. If they were actually doing
    this right now they would not be able to conceal all the miracle cures.

    Peter

    Quoted message said:

    Do you know anyone who has contact with John Anderson MD?.
    Anth
    [snip]

  5. "Anth" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    In the 1950's would this type of study be considered to reach a valid
    conclusion?

    It would possibly have some local impact, but papers like this in an obscure
    European journal would probably not be taken too seriously by doctors in the
    UK and America, if it reached them at all..

    Peter

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