Folding Bikes...a Question

If he's a responsible person, he'll offer to pay. You're free to turn
down the offer if you wish, but I'd think that making him pay (and
thereby missing a skydive or two) might just make him more careful in
the future when around other people's property.

Rich

Did you ever do anything by accident, offer to make amends but instead
you were forgiven for your bad judgement. I was. And I think I learned
much much more by being forgiven than I would ever have learned if I
had been made to pay. And I think with that forgiveness I learned to
Pay it Forward.
Maggie.

: If he is indeed a responsible person, he WILL offer to pay for it. So I
: guess this can be the test as to wether he's responsible or not.
:
: Rich

: I resent this. From what I wrote about him, he is responsible. Your
: test to see if he is responsible is ridiculous. You really expect
: perfection from people don't you?
: Maggie....at times irresponsible....never perfect...always human.

First I agree with one side and then I agree with the other. But, the bottom
line is, if he is truly a responsible person, he will be responsible with
other people's belongings as well as his own. If he is careless, he needs to
make the bike "right", not just say, "Oh well...." I doubt that he has said
that, because of the hectic activity that day, but, it will be interesting
to see what he says when he returns. Did he even say, "Gee, Mom, I'm sorry I
messed up your bike." ? I don't think it has anything to do with perfection,
though. I think that if the bike had belonged to one of his buddies, if he
would have taken care to see that it was fixed...from having sons, I think
that they DO tend to be careless with Mom and Dad's belongings because they
know Mom and Dad will let it slide and say (with a sigh), "Oh, that's just
an accident."

We had a van that my son took to an outdoor concert and he and his
buddies decided to use that little ladder on the back to climb to the top
and stand there for a better view (he said, "Well, what is the ladder for,
anyway?). The roof of the van got horribly dented! But, when he damaged
something that belonged to a buddy of his, his attitude turned around
quickly. I think you are feeling like people are ganging up on you, but it
seems to me that they are just saying, "You break it, you should fix it." to
the boy....because they aren't looking at it from the mother's perspective.

Pat in TX
:

"Maggie" wrote: DOES ANYONE look at the whole picture or is tunnel vision
the tao of Bicycles.misc. (clip)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Count me on your side, Maggie! There is a lot more to the relationships
within a family than RESPONSIBILITY. For you to treat him the same way you
would an absoute stranger, demanding restitution for a "wrong," would
probably cause him to pay you, and then wonder what went wrong. This is not
some guy who backed into your car bumper, and then drove off.

Frank Krygowski said:

Bill Sornson said:

Rich said:

If he is indeed a responsible person, he WILL offer to pay for it.
So I guess this can be the test as to wether he's responsible or
not.

Judgmental much?

Dear me! We wouldn't want to damage anyone's self esteem by
suggesting they pay for what they broke!!!

Nice trimming/editing, Frank. Whether Maggie's kid should pay for
accidentally damaging (and even THAT is unknown still) her bike is between
her and him. Rich seems to know what's best for others, despite not knowing
them or all factors.

Quoted message said:

Why, that might imply their choice of action was actually _wrong_,
instead of merely being different. And we _must_ value our
differences, and thus our diversity!

Wow.

Maggie said:

If he is indeed a responsible person, he WILL offer to pay for it. So
I

guess this can be the test as to wether he's responsible or not.

Rich

I resent this. From what I wrote about him, he is responsible. Your
test to see if he is responsible is ridiculous. You really expect
perfection from people don't you?

When Rich was 5 years old he broke a Wilma juice glass and his mother made
him pay for it.

He's still paying.
--
BS (no, really)

Rich said:

Maggie said:

What is the definition of responsible in your mind when it comes to

a

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

college student.

Being accountable for one's actions. I.e. If your actions damage
someone's property, you pay for it. It's not complex.

Rich

Maggie...stepping up on soapbox.......
Being accountable for one actions?????? Please, how may mature adults
are accountable for their actions? As a child you seem to be always be
held accountable for breaking things or eating with your mouth full or
accidently knocking over your milk. As people "mature" they not only
damage property, "they damage people." Are they held accountable?
NOT!!!! I work in the business world where things go on that really
stink. I see people getting away with things that I think are
unforgivable. I see people using people, I see hurt in people that
never goes away. Hurt caused by the actions of mature adults. Damaged
property???? When will people be held accountable for damaging the
hearts and minds of other people. We can replace property easily. Go
to a store and get a replacement. How do we ever repair a heart we
have hurt or a friend we have betrayed. I beg to differ with you, being
accountable is VERY complex. Damaged property is the simple aspect of
accountability....apologize and go to the store and replace it...yes
that is simple..not complex at all. But..leaving scars on people for
the rest of their life is a complex issue that people do not want to be
held accountable for at all. Usually excuses or lies follow when they
are caught doing this type of damage because its so hard to repair. If
you sense some bitterness in that, there is...a broken bike is
something that is easy to be accountable for in my opinion.....If I
forgive my son it will teach him something many people have
forgotten...the power of accountability when it comes to the BIGGER
things. I have to teach my kids accountability in my own way. The
things I want him to be accountable for are the simple things yes, but
more importantly I want him accountable for things that cannot be
repaired. Things you can not fix and things the people do to other
people that can never ever be repaired or forgotten. So your simple
explanation stated above is not so simple....it is very complex. Have
you ever done anything that you could not take accountability for
because there was no way to make it right. Many people have. I don't
want my son to be one of those people. He most likely will offer to fix
my bike.....but I will not take the money. It was just a bike, easily
fixed. It was not my heart he damaged, it was not my pride or my hopes
or my dreams. It was a bike. Hopefully he will never do that to
anyone. Accountability is a very complex issue my friend. Very complex.

Stepping down from soapbox...turns and walks away...........slowly.
Maggie
PS...When I started this thread all I wanted to know is where to buy a
folding bike for the other son...and I feel like I am defending a son
you don't even know. A son with a good heart who would never damage
another person....but did damage a bike. All of you are right about me.
I am much too open about my life on this newsgroup. I set myself up
for this. Where's the tylenol?

The best thing to give to your enemy is forgiveness; to an opponent,
tolerance; to a friend, your heart; to your child, a good example; to a
father, deference; to your mother, conduct that will make her proud of
you; to yourself, respect; to all men, charity.
Francis Maitland Balfour

Bill Sornson said:

When Rich was 5 years old he broke a Wilma juice glass and his mother made
him pay for it.

I did not know this. Perhaps I've repressed that memory. Can you
please tell me more about my past? I do hope it's interesting.

Rich

Rich said:

Bill Sornson said:

When Rich was 5 years old he broke a Wilma juice glass and his
mother made him pay for it.

I did not know this. Perhaps I've repressed that memory. Can you
please tell me more about my past? I do hope it's interesting.

My rates just went up for '05 :-P

Maggie wrote:
|| My son lives in Jersey but works in NYC. He takes mass transit in
|| but then has a pretty long walk. Would a folding bike be good to
|| throw in the trunk and then ride in the city? Some people have told
|| me that folding bikes are not good at all. Come Spring he may take
|| his Motorcycle into the city and this will not be an issue, but it
|| seems to me that the cheapest way to live in Jersey and work in NYC
|| is to do the mass transit thing and then hop on a bike through the
|| city. On another topic, the weather in Jersey sucks...it has been
|| raining so much it is impossible for a new rider to get time in on
|| the bike. I have that charity ride in May and I am wondering if my
|| spin classes are really going to help me when it comes to actually
|| riding the 25 or 50 miles. I am signed up for this event and I try
|| to get to the gym as much as possible, but I am worried about it.
|| Riding a stationary bike and riding my bike outdoors for 25 miles
|| can't possibly compare. I took the bike out one day when the roads
|| were wet and I was on my ass again. I may be getting stronger, but
|| I am not getting any experience. I am starting to wonder if I
|| rushed into signing up for the MS ride without putting enough
|| rational thought into it. Plus my youngest son left for Canada to go
|| snowboarding and while he was packing his friends SUV with 12
|| snowboards he knocked my bike over and its a mess. I feel like fate
|| is trying to tell me to get off the bike before I kill myself. The
|| gym cannot prepare anyone for the outdoor riding. I don't think they
|| compare at all. ANY SUGGESTIONS?? Is there a chance I will be ready
|| for this ride in May.

You can be ready for a 25 mile ride in about a month. The 50 miight take
longer, though. On my first charity ride, I teamed up with this lady who
happened to be riding near me. During the ride, I found out she has just
bought her bike the night before and had been riding her hubby's bike for
all of the week before. Yeah, she didn't know how to shift gears and when
to shift, so going up hill she'd get left behind and I'd wait on her at the
top....once she got to the top she'd zoom by and I' d have to catch up with
her. She fell of the bike at a rest stop while trying to get back on...I
went incredibly slow (even for me) trying to ride with her, but she finished
up the ride like a champ. You're lightyears ahead of where she was.

Don't fret. You'll be ready.

|| Maggie
|| http://www.geocities.com/lindaannbuset/mypage.html

Maggie said:

Maggie...stepping up on soapbox.......
Being accountable for one actions?????? Please, how may mature adults
are accountable for their actions?

Maybe if their parents had taught them to be accountable they would be.

Maggie said:

Dear me! We wouldn't want to damage anyone's self esteem by suggesting
they pay for what they broke!!!

DOES ANYONE look at the whole picture or is tunnel vision the tao of
Bicycles.misc. If I am a responsible person don't you think I should
actually look at the whole child and take the accident damage to my
bike and see it for what it was. An accident.

OK, I apologize. It's certainly up to you to decide whether your son
should take care of the bike or not.

But I must say, it's a bit curious. As you described it, he "knocked
the bike over" while loading snow boards. That sort of thing usually
does nothing at all to a bike. Taking care of the bike should mean
nothing more than getting a simple tool and straightening something that
was knocked crooked - the kind of thing most boys can do in five minutes.

However, in general I think there are far too many instances where kids
don't take responsibility for their actions, and where parents are kind
to a fault. I'm not saying this was one of those instances, but I'm
very familiar with such instances. In general, I think fixing (or
paying for) what you broke is good practice, and a good lesson.

--
--------------------+
Frank Krygowski [To reply, remove rodent and vegetable dot com,
replace with cc.ysu dot edu]

Bill Sornson said:

Frank Krygowski said:

Bill Sornson said:

Rich wrote:

>If he is indeed a responsible person, he WILL offer to pay for it.
>So I guess this can be the test as to wether he's responsible or
>not.

Judgmental much?

Dear me! We wouldn't want to damage anyone's self esteem by
suggesting they pay for what they broke!!!

Nice trimming/editing, Frank.

?? Minimal trimming, actually.

Whether Maggie's kid should pay for

Quoted message said:

accidentally damaging (and even THAT is unknown still) her bike is between
her and him.

I agree.

Rich seems to know what's best for others, despite not knowing

Quoted message said:

them or all factors.

It seems to me that when a person posts to Usenet, a person is inviting
comments. Otherwise, why post? And I think Rich's comment was
reasonable. Maggie can forgive if she likes, that's up to her. But if
her son doesn't offer to fix things, I do think it reflects badly on him.

I was present when a kid that age was leaving after a pleasant visit
back home - leaving for his new home 700 miles away. He was backing his
car out of the crowded driveway when he broke his dad's car's taillight.

The kid obviously felt very bad, and immediately tried to pay for the
damage. The father was already missing his son, and absolutely refused
payment. Both acted honorably, IMO. Had the kid not offered to pay, I
think that would have been less than honorable.

But in this case, my bet is Maggie's son simply has to spend five
minutes with simple tools and all will be better.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Why, that might imply their choice of action was actually _wrong_,
instead of merely being different. And we _must_ value our
differences, and thus our diversity!

Wow.

Glad you liked that.

--
--------------------+
Frank Krygowski [To reply, remove rodent and vegetable dot com,
replace with cc.ysu dot edu]

Rich Jan 5, 5:39 pm
Maybe if their parents had taught them to be accountable they would be.

You are impossible. You see things one way..YOUR WAY....Thank God you
are not judge and jury, everyone would be guilty. (regardless of the
circumstances or the whole picture.) My son gets home tomorrow. I am
going to listen to his vacation stories, congratulate him on his grades
and cook dinner for him. Like someone said...he is not a stranger who
backed into my car....he is my son. He will always be held accountable
for his behavior, when it is something that hurts someone. In parenting
I always believed it was best to "Choose battles wisely". He is a good
person, a great friend, and he cares about people. He stands by his
friends and his family. These are things I wanted to make sure I taught
him. I am not going to raise a son who turns into a man who pays for
a bike but rips someone apart without remorse. You raise your kids your
way, I will raise them my way. There are enough scumbags in this world
walking around like fine upstanding citizens....he is not going to be
one of them. Anyone can change my opinion about bikes or riding....but
no one can change my opinion regarding how to raise kids. I've seen
heaven and hell raising those three kids and experience is the best
teacher. I know people who would pay for a broken bike in a
heartbeat.....but in other ways they are selfish, cruel and inhuman in
my opinion. I wonder if their parents held them accountable for the
things the world sees (like broken bikes) and forgot to hold them
accountable for their the more important things.
Things they never saw in their kid because they were too busy teaching
them fix the "things" they accidently broke. Accountability is easy
with the small stuff. You can be accountable for those things and the
world will see you as a good person. I would like parents to set an
example of accountability for the damage they do to the minds and
hearts of other people. You can do terrible things to other people and
no one will be the wiser. That is where character in accountability
enters the picture. OK I am done with this topic. You have your
opinion, I have mine.
Maggie.

Rich wrote:
|| Maggie wrote:
||
||| Maggie...stepping up on soapbox.......
||| Being accountable for one actions?????? Please, how may mature
||| adults are accountable for their actions?
||
|| Maybe if their parents had taught them to be accountable they would
|| be.

Maybe you should mind your own damn business, Rich.

Maggie wrote:
|| Rich Jan 5, 5:39 pm
|| Maybe if their parents had taught them to be accountable they would
|| be.
||

[snip]

|| this topic. You have your opinion, I have mine.
|| Maggie.

Ignore him, Maggie.

But I must say, it's a bit curious. As you described it, he "knocked
the bike over" while loading snow boards. That sort of thing usually
does nothing at all to a bike.

Did you ever pick up a snowboard when it was packed in the case with
the snow boots and all the other stuff that you pack with the board. I
can't even pick the case up. They all have the heavy duty cases which
are required for air travel. The airlines will destroy your board if
its not in a heavy duty case. And you put more than the snowboard in
the case. It has compartments for all your equipment...PLUS. Every
compartment is made especially for each piece of equipment...including
goggles and boots and those clips (whatever) and also space for your
snowboarding outerwear. Its damn heavy.

In article <[email hidden]>,

Roger Zoul said:

Maggie wrote:
|| Rich Jan 5, 5:39 pm
|| Maybe if their parents had taught them to be accountable they would
|| be.
||

[snip]

|| this topic. You have your opinion, I have mine.
|| Maggie.

Ignore him, Maggie.

Interesting.

Hypothetical. A user posts behind a picture of a kindly
grandmother type with white hair and looking like Charlie
Weaver's mother. She is confrontational, passive-aggressive,
has posts laced with leading questions almost resembling
trolling. A typical newsgroup gives this kind of person high
props, especially if she can minimally 'hang' with their
activity - she's their token 'Grey Panther'. This poster is
often allowed to break group conventions, at will, use a lot of
all-caps, and lots of bangs (!!!!) They have a .sig that
shouts, "I'm loud, I'm proud, I'm fifty, but I wear orthopedic
running shoes and run marathons - love it or shove it".

Another user posts behind a picture of a shaved headed young
buck. But is mostly straightforward though polite and succinct.
He's ignored, and if he posts too didactically, or is verbose
or enthusiastic, he's called on it and told to relax and lurk
more.

Still another user posts behind a picture of 'lil ole me' a
strikingly beautiful yet brainy-looking pig-tailed girl with
glasses. She posts the dumbest questions ever, but gets lots
and lots of detailed replies. She breaks convention and the
users think she's cute for not remembering how to spell
'definately'.

Just some musings on a rainy morning in January. ;-)

-Sledge

Roger Zoul said:

Rich wrote:
|| Maggie wrote:
||
||| Maggie...stepping up on soapbox.......
||| Being accountable for one actions?????? Please, how may mature
||| adults are accountable for their actions?
||
|| Maybe if their parents had taught them to be accountable they would
|| be.

Maybe you should mind your own damn business, Rich.

That's hardly the purpose of newsgroups, Roger.

And as far as I know, my business isn't damned.

Hypothetical.

Hypothetical my ass.
Maggie...With long auburn hair and still hot at 50.
Shove it baby!!!!

Maggie said:

But I must say, it's a bit curious. As you described it, he "knocked
the bike over" while loading snow boards. That sort of thing usually
does nothing at all to a bike.

Did you ever pick up a snowboard when it was packed in the case with
the snow boots and all the other stuff that you pack with the board. I
can't even pick the case up. They all have the heavy duty cases which
are required for air travel. The airlines will destroy your board if
its not in a heavy duty case. And you put more than the snowboard in
the case. It has compartments for all your equipment...PLUS. Every
compartment is made especially for each piece of equipment...including
goggles and boots and those clips (whatever) and also space for your
snowboarding outerwear. Its damn heavy.

This is a desparate attempt to get back to some bicycling content:

What's wrong with the bike?

Whether a bike is knocked over by a 2-year-old toddler or a 2 ton
bulldozer doesn't matter. The bike falls. Normally that results in
ZERO damage.

If the bike does get damaged from falling over, it can usually be fixed
with a screwdriver. IOW, even a wrench isn't usually necessary.

So what's really wrong with the bike? Is it really something your son
can't fix?

--
--------------------+
Frank Krygowski [To reply, remove rodent and vegetable dot com,
replace with cc.ysu dot edu]