Floor pump recommendation

Quoted message said:

What can I say? Carbon is in for everything bicycling.

It's not your fault; the marekting people are the ones who want to do
that. Of course, they completely ignore the fact that in the process,
they put the product out of reach (or at least out of reason) for the
greatest part of the potential market. Built as per *your* spec, that
pump's price might have been low enough that I'd have been interested
in getting one to use as a travel tool, but at $200 it's off into
fantasy territory.

Perhaps someday it will become more affordable. One can hope so, at
least.
--
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Jasper Janssen said:

Quoted message said:

Let's not get too nationalistic about this but the one you prefer
is a one stage (single action) pump that takes at least four times
the number of strokes to fill a tire. Two stage pumps have always
been a goal for users and pump manufacturers.

Quoted message said:

Let me get this straight, this design pumps while the handle's going
up as well as down? Doesn't that make it fatiguing to use? Pulling
strength takes much more out of you than pushing strength.

As you may have noticed on a single stage pump, the first half of the
stroke requires almost no effort. Likewise the upstroke on a double
acting pump takes little effort even at twice the force. The amount
of work, just moving arms and back, up and down, with a single
action pump is greater than with a double acting one.

If you believe that spinning at 120rpm it is more efficient than a
lower cadence you could argue the same for pumping a single stage high
pressure pump. From experience it appear to me that the action of the
single stage pump contains a lot of unnecessary work. You might
imagine going through the motions with no pump in hand and even that
is exercise.

Jobst Brandt

Per Werehatrack:

Quoted message said:

but at $200 it's off into
fantasy territory.

I thought I saw a couple of prices around $100.

e.g. http://tinyurl.com/73zyw
--
PeteCresswell

Where's the Hatrack said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> Looking for something with a universal Presta/Schrader head that
> removes easily from the stem and doesn't need to be reconfigured
> for each type, fairly inexpensive (<$40) and above all reliable.
> I bought a Topeak Joe Blow Pro a couple years ago and it truly is
> a POS.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The best floorpump from Europe is the "Rennkompressor" from SKS,
the pump far more popular as the Silca and not "Made in China"
like all the Topeak, Blackburn, Specialized, Trek or Cannondale
pumps.

http://www.sks-germany.com/en/stage.php?mod=detail&cid=1&id=50&zg=1&seite=2&start=3

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Let's not get too nationalistic about this but the one you prefer
is a one stage (single action) pump that takes at least four times
the number of strokes to fill a tire. Two stage pumps have always
been a goal for users and pump manufacturers. An alternative is to
make the cylinder of a single action pump nearly twice as long since
no significant work is done for the first half of the
downstroke... or more. Even that doesn't approach the efficiency
of a good two stage pump. As I said, try the Air Tower-5 at your
local bicycle shop.

http://tinyurl.com/73zyw

Quoted message said:

By comparison to a hand-operated pump that costs $200, a decent 110V
electric compressor at a much lower price becomes a much more
attractive alternative.

http://tinyurl.com/atvgd

Quoted message said:

or

http://tinyurl.com/8jbuv

Quoted message said:

(Yes, I know, right now the $200 hand pump is on sale for just $100.
For less than $100, a somewhat smaller electric compressor can be
had which will supply 115psi readily.)

Quoted message said:

Elegance in design and construction is nice, but for some of us,
getting the tire inflated as quickly, painlessly and cheaply as
possible is a more important consideration.

All this came to mind at the time we built our pumps and the moving
thought was that the pump would be ageless and offer a good outlet for
design and manufacture. I got to do the design and the other bikies
who had machine shop access did the manufacture. Even the materials
were not cheap because we used the best. It was fun and we have the
pumps, some of which are still in use (owners still ride bike). It's
been awhile.

Quoted message said:

If there is a need to make the unit portable so that it can be
carried along into the field, then the hand pump trumps the
compressor easily, of course. (And of the battery-operated
self-contained inflation units that I've tested, none were as fast
as a conventional hand pump!)

You're being far to practical and utilitarian. My pump stands next to
my bicycle and has worked like a charm for about 30 years.

http://home.comcast.net/~carlfogel/download/PMP_004.jpg
http://home.comcast.net/~carlfogel/download/PMP_006.jpg

Thanks to Carl Fogel.

Jobst Brandt

On Wed, 28 Dec 2005 00:34:58 GMT, Jasper Janssen <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Let's not get too nationalistic about this but the one you prefer is a
one stage (single action) pump that talkes at least four times the
number of strokes to fill a tire. Two stage pumps have always been a
goal for users and pump manufacturers.

Let me get this straight, this design pumps while the handle's going up as
well as down? Doesn't that make it fatiguing to use? Pulling strength
takes much more out of you than pushing strength.

My recollection is that it's two-stage in that the larger pump
cylinder transfers the air to a smaller enclosed internal volume from
which the smaller pump cylinder then draws it for the second
compression stage. The two cylinders each compress the air to
different final pressures; the effort is reduced from what would
ordinarily be required because while the second stage is smaller in
diameter, a higher delivered volume at the final pressure is achieved
because the smaller cylinder is drawing from a reservoir of air at a
higher starting pressure, and the larger cylinder is filling the
smaller cylinder's reservoir behind the small cylinder's piston,
reducing the pressure differential between the final-pressure volume
and the rest of the cylinder in the process.

Pumping occurs only on the down stroke, but engineering makes it more
efficient. And an elegant solution it is, indeed.

--
Typoes are a feature, not a bug.
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On Tue, 27 Dec 2005 17:04:35 -0800, "(PeteCresswell)" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Per Werehatrack:

Quoted message said:

but at $200 it's off into
fantasy territory.

I thought I saw a couple of prices around $100.

e.g. http://tinyurl.com/73zyw

Still way over my budget for the moment. But then, so are a lot of
the conventional pumps, for what they deliver.

And, to be honest, I have misgivings about the use of carbon fiber
tubing in this area. It doesn't seem like the right choice; this is
not a material that is well suited for sliding loads. For $100, I'd
still want the cylinders to be stainless steel or even plain brass.
Carbon fiber makes the unit *less* attractive, not more. At the
original asking price of $200 (which was still the current price for
one of the models, IIRC), the pump is just out of the question
regardless of the material.
--
Typoes are a feature, not a bug.
Some gardening required to reply via email.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

Where's the hatrack said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Let's not get too nationalistic about this but the one you prefer
is a one stage (single action) pump that takes at least four
times the number of strokes to fill a tire. Two stage pumps have
always been a goal for users and pump manufacturers.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Let me get this straight, this design pumps while the handle's
going up as well as down? Doesn't that make it fatiguing to use?
Pulling strength takes much more out of you than pushing strength.

Quoted message said:

My recollection is that it's two-stage in that the larger pump
cylinder transfers the air to a smaller enclosed internal volume
from which the smaller pump cylinder then draws it for the second
compression stage. The two cylinders each compress the air to
different final pressures; the effort is reduced from what would
ordinarily be required because while the second stage is smaller in
diameter, a higher delivered volume at the final pressure is
achieved because the smaller cylinder is drawing from a reservoir of
air at a higher starting pressure, and the larger cylinder is
filling the smaller cylinder's reservoir behind the small cylinder's
piston, reducing the pressure differential between the
final-pressure volume and the rest of the cylinder in the process.

Quoted message said:

Pumping occurs only on the down stroke, but engineering makes it
more efficient. And an elegant solution it is, indeed.

Well, that's not entirely accurate. The entire main cylinder and HP
cylinder are full of atmospheric air at the bottom of the stroke. The
upstroke transfers the combined volume (approximately the volume of a
single large cylinder) into the small cylinder requiring some pumping
effort. Now the small cylinder is filled with about 47psia (3.2 : 1
compression ration) after which the downstroke raises that pressure
until it exceeds the pressure in the tire.

The most annoying effect is that some people who used my pump did not
free the Presta valve which will not open in response to overpressure
below about 300psi if it has been closed for some time. This
invariably ruined the pressure gauge. I never installed a pop-off
valve for overpressure protection of the gauge. Beware, this can
happen to any pump with gauge.

Jobst Brandt

Quoted message said:

Where's the Hatrack said:

By comparison to a hand-operated pump that costs $200, a decent 110V
electric compressor at a much lower price becomes a much more
attractive alternative.

http://tinyurl.com/atvgd

Quoted message said:

or

http://tinyurl.com/8jbuv

Quoted message said:

(Yes, I know, right now the $200 hand pump is on sale for just $100.
For less than $100, a somewhat smaller electric compressor can be
had which will supply 115psi readily.)

Quoted message said:

Elegance in design and construction is nice, but for some of us,
getting the tire inflated as quickly, painlessly and cheaply as
possible is a more important consideration.

All this came to mind at the time we built our pumps and the moving
thought was that the pump would be ageless and offer a good outlet for
design and manufacture. I got to do the design and the other bikies
who had machine shop access did the manufacture. Even the materials
were not cheap because we used the best. It was fun and we have the
pumps, some of which are still in use (owners still ride bike). It's
been awhile.

Well, of course! I'm still using tools that I made 20 to 30 years ago
myself. (Good grief. It *has* been that long.)

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

If there is a need to make the unit portable so that it can be
carried along into the field, then the hand pump trumps the
compressor easily, of course. (And of the battery-operated
self-contained inflation units that I've tested, none were as fast
as a conventional hand pump!)

You're being far to practical and utilitarian. My pump stands next to
my bicycle and has worked like a charm for about 30 years.

http://home.comcast.net/~carlfogel/download/PMP_004.jpg
http://home.comcast.net/~carlfogel/download/PMP_006.jpg

Thanks to Carl Fogel.

Parallel cylinders; simple, effective, neat. I thought of a way to
make a coaxial two-stage in which the outer cylinder and the inner
piston move together, but since I don't have access to a suitable
machine shop anymore, I doubt that I'll ever get the chance to
actually build one. OTOH, charging the HP cylinder via the upstroke of
the LP cylinder would lower the downstroke effort, so your version has
a definite advantage there.
--
Typoes are a feature, not a bug.
Some gardening required to reply via email.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

Quoted message said:

Per Volker Leimann:

Quoted message said:

http://www.sks-germany.com/en/stage.php?mod=detail&cid=1&id=50&zg=1&seite=2&start=3

(PeteCresswell) said:

Which begs the question: what is a "track" pump?

Taller. Costs more. Think Silca vs. Silca Super Pista, about
100mm longer for an extra $10.
(The idea being that trackies used to run higher pressure
than us road riders.)
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Looking at chainreactioncycles web page and comparing it to the one you
quoted I get the impression that the Blackburn Air Tower-5 is aluminum.
There is a carbon fibre model, too at twice the price.

Jan Lindström

Jan Lindstrom said:

Looking at chainreactioncycles web page and comparing it to the one you
quoted I get the impression that the Blackburn Air Tower-5 is aluminum.
There is a carbon fibre model, too at twice the price.

Aluminum at $100 is still quite steep, but IMO a far better value than
the carbon fiber unit even if they were both the same price.
--
Typoes are a feature, not a bug.
Some gardening required to reply via email.
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Quoted message said:

Jasper Janssen said:

Let me get this straight, this design pumps while the handle's going
up as well as down? Doesn't that make it fatiguing to use? Pulling
strength takes much more out of you than pushing strength.

As you may have noticed on a single stage pump, the first half of the
stroke requires almost no effort. Likewise the upstroke on a double
acting pump takes little effort even at twice the force. The amount
of work, just moving arms and back, up and down, with a single
action pump is greater than with a double acting one.

So, essentially on a double acting pump, the up+downstroke are,
effectively, the same as one long downstroke on a single-action?
Interesting. I didn't realise that was the effect.

Quoted message said:

If you believe that spinning at 120rpm it is more efficient than a
lower cadence

Which, to be honest, I don't. Not for me, at least. Less knee problems,
that I can get. More efficient.. I dunno 'bout that.

Quoted message said:

you could argue the same for pumping a single stage high
pressure pump. From experience it appear to me that the action of the
single stage pump contains a lot of unnecessary work. You might
imagine going through the motions with no pump in hand and even that
is exercise.

True.

Jasper

Jasper Janssen said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Let me get this straight, this design pumps while the handle's
going up as well as down? Doesn't that make it fatiguing to use?
Pulling strength takes much more out of you than pushing strength.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

As you may have noticed on a single stage pump, the first half of
the stroke requires almost no effort. Likewise the upstroke on a
double acting pump takes little effort even at twice the force.
The amount of work, just moving arms and back, up and down, with a
single action pump is greater than with a double acting one.

Quoted message said:

So, essentially on a double acting pump, the up+downstroke are,
effectively, the same as one long downstroke on a single-action?
Interesting. I didn't realise that was the effect.

Well its better than that. The upstroke of my pump has a 3.2 : 1
compression ratio which is like having a single action pump that is
4.2 times as tall as a conventional pump (3.2 up plus 1 down).

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

If you believe that spinning at 120rpm it is more efficient than a
lower cadence

Quoted message said:

Which, to be honest, I don't. Not for me, at least. Less knee
problems, that I can get. More efficient... I dunno 'bout that.

Not all of us were gifted with bad knees.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

you could argue the same for pumping a single stage high pressure
pump. From experience it appear to me that the action of the
single stage pump contains a lot of unnecessary work. You might
imagine going through the motions with no pump in hand and even
that is exercise.

Quoted message said:

True.

Besides, as you may have noticed in the pictures, these are lovely
mechanical devices, ones that are a pleasure to see and use.

Jobst Brandt

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Mark Atanovich said:

Looking for something with a universal Presta/Schrader head that
removes easily from the stem and doesn't need to be reconfigured for
each type, fairly inexpensive (<$40) and above all reliable. I
bought a Topeak Joe Blow Pro a couple years ago and it truly is a
POS.

Forget about the $40 pump if you plan to ride a few years and get the
Blackburn Air Tower-5.

http://tinyurl.com/73zyw

Super light double action pump with all the features a floor pump
should have. Check out the low friction seals that make it slide like
a trombone. Like a drum with a hole in it... can't be beat!

Jobst Brandt

That's a hell of a pump! Hundred bucks is a bit much for a pump.

"David White" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Mark Atanovich said:

Looking for something with a universal presta/schrader head that removes
easily from the stem and doesn't need to be reconfigured for each type,
fairly inexpensive (<$40) and above all reliable. I bought a Topeak Joe
Blow Pro a couple years ago and it truly is a POS.

Thanks,
Mark

Somehow I am ashamed to admit that I have been pretty happy with my
Nashbar Blue Pump
<http://www.nashbar.com/profile.cfm?category=106&subcategory=1075&brand=&sku=2420&storetype=&estoreid=&pagename=>
but I shouldn't be. I bought it on a whim a couple years back because of
the low price and the nice, dual-size head. I figured it would prove less
useful than my old, retro Silca floor pump but since I have had it, the
Silca stands completely idle. With my ancient eyes, I'd prefer the guage
dial be located higher like on the Red or Orange models but they weren't
available back then (and I cannot comment on their quality since I have
not seen them).

I have a Pyramid Pro I bought from the LBS 8 years ago for 15 bucks that
works great.

Per [email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

people who used my pump

How hard was it to make your own pump?

I'm tall and the most pressure I pump is about 35 psi.

Always wanted:

- A pump that I didn't have to bend over double to operate

- A pump that would fill up a high volume tire in as few strokes as possible.

- A pump like an old one I once had where the feet fold up or there are no feet
at all (more stashable in a bike box).

Would the ingredients be available at, say, Home Depot (except for Presta head,
hose, and gauge...)?

I'm thinking:

- A relatively-precise/stable tube of the right diameter to move air at the
desired pressure

- A threaded rod with nut/washer/wooden handle/washer/nut sandwich on one end
and nut/washer/leather gasket/washer/nut sandwich at the other end.

- Some kind of cap for the top.

- A block at the bottom that screws into/brazes into the tube and receives the
hose.

If the washer were tolerant enough, I'm wondering if even PVC pipe might serve
for the main tube...
--
PeteCresswell

On Wed, 28 Dec 2005 22:30:15 GMT, Werehatrack <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

For air mattress inflation, I have discovered that the small turbine
compressor sold by Coleman is not only very quiet, but many times
faster than using the other compressor. Its maximum pressure is less
than 2psi, but it will fill our queen-size mattress in less than a
minute. Perhaps it might be useful to use such a unit to get the ribs
of your tent filled, and then take them to final pressure with the
hand pump or the louder instrument. As I recall, the turbine pumps
are fairly cheap...and they run on D-cell batteries.

Might not be a bad idea. The ribs are very voluminous[1] and with the
compressor the filling is much slower than the pressurising. Will the
Coleman unit bolt on to a Shrader/car valve or would I have to rig that?

Jasper

[1] 3 meters square tent[2], diagonal half-circle ribs, so that's about
4.2 meters over the diagonal and about 6.5 meters in length apiece &
thickness is about 2,5 inch diameter or so -- motorcycle inner tubes,
essentially, inside woven nylon sheaths. So it's waaay more than any bike
or even car tyre, especially as it has to go to a pressure of between 3
and 4 bar, which cars rarely get to.

[2] A Karsten 300, actually. I was under the impression that, at least
until a patent or two run out, they've got exclusive rights, but the
concept of an inflatable-ribbed tent doesn't seem to faze you -- is
anybody selling tents on that principle in the US?

In article <[email hidden]>,

Werehatrack said:

And, to be honest, I have misgivings about the use of carbon fiber
tubing in this area. It doesn't seem like the right choice; this is
not a material that is well suited for sliding loads. For $100, I'd
still want the cylinders to be stainless steel or even plain brass.
Carbon fiber makes the unit *less* attractive, not more. At the
original asking price of $200 (which was still the current price for
one of the models, IIRC), the pump is just out of the question
regardless of the material.

As far as I can tell, the $100 pump is aluminum. The carbon-fibre
one is a different item that sells for $200.

-Luns

On Fri, 30 Dec 2005 00:01:53 GMT, Jasper Janssen <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

On Wed, 28 Dec 2005 22:30:15 GMT, Werehatrack <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

For air mattress inflation, I have discovered that the small turbine
compressor sold by Coleman is not only very quiet, but many times
faster than using the other compressor. Its maximum pressure is less
than 2psi, but it will fill our queen-size mattress in less than a
minute. Perhaps it might be useful to use such a unit to get the ribs
of your tent filled, and then take them to final pressure with the
hand pump or the louder instrument. As I recall, the turbine pumps
are fairly cheap...and they run on D-cell batteries.

Might not be a bad idea. The ribs are very voluminous[1] and with the
compressor the filling is much slower than the pressurising. Will the
Coleman unit bolt on to a Shrader/car valve or would I have to rig that?

You would probaby have to rig it, and the diameter of the resulting
port will be a limiting factor in the effectiveness. The air mattress
makers long ago figured out that to move an acceptable volume of air
into the cavity, a larger port was advisable, so the mattresses often
come with both large fast-fill and smaller tire-pump ports.

Quoted message said:

[2] A Karsten 300, actually. I was under the impression that, at least
until a patent or two run out, they've got exclusive rights, but the
concept of an inflatable-ribbed tent doesn't seem to faze you -- is
anybody selling tents on that principle in the US?

I haven't seen any, but I haven't exactly been shopping, either.
Pretty much all of the lightweight tent models that I have noticed in
local stores use external fiberglass or carbon-fiber tension struts.
--
Typoes are a feature, not a bug.
Some gardening required to reply via email.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

On Fri, 30 Dec 2005 06:42:08 GMT, Werehatrack <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

On Fri, 30 Dec 2005 00:01:53 GMT, Jasper Janssen <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

On Wed, 28 Dec 2005 22:30:15 GMT, Werehatrack <[email hidden]>
wrote:

Might not be a bad idea. The ribs are very voluminous[1] and with the
compressor the filling is much slower than the pressurising. Will the
Coleman unit bolt on to a Shrader/car valve or would I have to rig that?

You would probaby have to rig it, and the diameter of the resulting
port will be a limiting factor in the effectiveness. The air mattress
makers long ago figured out that to move an acceptable volume of air
into the cavity, a larger port was advisable, so the mattresses often
come with both large fast-fill and smaller tire-pump ports.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

[2] A Karsten 300, actually. I was under the impression that, at least
until a patent or two run out, they've got exclusive rights, but the
concept of an inflatable-ribbed tent doesn't seem to faze you -- is
anybody selling tents on that principle in the US?

I haven't seen any, but I haven't exactly been shopping, either.
Pretty much all of the lightweight tent models that I have noticed in
local stores use external fiberglass or carbon-fiber tension struts.

Yeah, the 'dome' and 'tunnel' models have almost completely replaced
traditional tent poles, these days. Much easier to set up, much cheaper to
produce, nothing not to like. The better/larger/more expensive ones simply
use alu tubes, 'cause carbon is actually worse in this application.

The Karsten, while being a 'dome' model (two ribs), is not lightweight by
any remote stretch of the imagination, though. The 3 meter version that we
have weighs about 35 kilos including the front extension.

http://www.campingdirect.co.uk/images/300green%2Bcurve%2Bfrs.jpg is about
it, except ours is all in the yellow/orange/beige that tents are supposed
to be. And we don't usually prop the door up like that.

Jasper