Flashing lights

David Martin said:

Expect to see
police horses with flashing blue lights.

Seen 'em. Well, the rider had the light strapped to his (or possibly
her, it was dark) offside leg, facing backerwards.

R.

David Martin said:

Expect to see
police horses with flashing blue lights.

Seen 'em. Well, the rider had the light strapped to his (or possibly
her, it was dark) offside leg, facing backerwards.

R.

Mike Causer said:

(The peeler is one of Chris Woodhead's new breed with a degree in physics
of course...)

("No, officer, I can't tell you how fast I was going. But I can tell
you exactly where I was."😉

- Old Chestnuts Revived.

R.

Mike Causer said:

(The peeler is one of Chris Woodhead's new breed with a degree in physics
of course...)

("No, officer, I can't tell you how fast I was going. But I can tell
you exactly where I was."😉

- Old Chestnuts Revived.

R.

David Martin said:

It also looks like the definitions of vehicles for emergency
services has been broadened to include non motorised vehicles.
Expect to see police horses with flashing blue lights.

Some of the police bikes on Friday's CM had very bright flashing blue
lights. No nee-nur nee-nur sound effects though.

--
Dave...

David Martin said:

It also looks like the definitions of vehicles for emergency
services has been broadened to include non motorised vehicles.
Expect to see police horses with flashing blue lights.

Some of the police bikes on Friday's CM had very bright flashing blue
lights. No nee-nur nee-nur sound effects though.

--
Dave...

On 2 Nov 2005 04:29:38 -0800 someone who may be "dkahn400"
<[email hidden]> wrote this:-

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Expect to see police horses with flashing blue lights.

Some of the police bikes on Friday's CM had very bright flashing blue
lights. No nee-nur nee-nur sound effects though.

A few years ago I saw a police officer on a bike in York. Along with
flashing blue lights it did make a nee-nur nee-nur sound when the
officer appeared to be in a hurry. Perhaps the chip shop was
closing:-)

--
David Hansen, Edinburgh | PGP email preferred-key number F566DA0E
I will always explain revoked keys, unless the UK government
prevents me by using the RIP Act 2000.

On 2 Nov 2005 04:29:38 -0800 someone who may be "dkahn400"
<[email hidden]> wrote this:-

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Expect to see police horses with flashing blue lights.

Some of the police bikes on Friday's CM had very bright flashing blue
lights. No nee-nur nee-nur sound effects though.

A few years ago I saw a police officer on a bike in York. Along with
flashing blue lights it did make a nee-nur nee-nur sound when the
officer appeared to be in a hurry. Perhaps the chip shop was
closing:-)

--
David Hansen, Edinburgh | PGP email preferred-key number F566DA0E
I will always explain revoked keys, unless the UK government
prevents me by using the RIP Act 2000.

David Hansen said:

On 2 Nov 2005 04:29:38 -0800 someone who may be "dkahn400"
<[email hidden]> wrote this:-

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Expect to see police horses with flashing blue lights.

Some of the police bikes on Friday's CM had very bright flashing blue
lights. No nee-nur nee-nur sound effects though.

A few years ago I saw a police officer on a bike in York. Along with
flashing blue lights it did make a nee-nur nee-nur sound when the
officer appeared to be in a hurry. Perhaps the chip shop was
closing:-)

I would have thought that 2 Airzounds with large capacity air cyclinders could be
"tuned" a tone
apart, and electronically rigged to blast alternately.

David Hansen said:

On 2 Nov 2005 04:29:38 -0800 someone who may be "dkahn400"
<[email hidden]> wrote this:-

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Expect to see police horses with flashing blue lights.

Some of the police bikes on Friday's CM had very bright flashing blue
lights. No nee-nur nee-nur sound effects though.

A few years ago I saw a police officer on a bike in York. Along with
flashing blue lights it did make a nee-nur nee-nur sound when the
officer appeared to be in a hurry. Perhaps the chip shop was
closing:-)

I would have thought that 2 Airzounds with large capacity air cyclinders could be
"tuned" a tone
apart, and electronically rigged to blast alternately.

Adrian Boliston said:

I would have thought that 2 Airzounds with large capacity air cyclinders could be
"tuned" a tone
apart, and electronically rigged to blast alternately.

At the price of deafening the rider and any bystanders, that would work.

I'm imagining a number of large policemen astride blaring bikes holding
polished brass ear trumpets to their shell-likes. One of them looks
suspiciously like Ian Blair...

Regards,

-david

dkahn400 said:

David Martin said:

It also looks like the definitions of vehicles for emergency
services has been broadened to include non motorised vehicles.
Expect to see police horses with flashing blue lights.

Some of the police bikes on Friday's CM had very bright flashing blue
lights. No nee-nur nee-nur sound effects though.

My local community officer has a siren on his bike. Its sounds like a
demented bee.

Just zis Guy said:

Gaaaaah! Amendments to SIs make my head hurt. Where's Tony Raven?

OK, specifically: it looks as if the kitemarking requirement is
relaxed but *only* in respect of lamps not capable of emitting a
steady light (i.e.: almost none of them), but that the fact of a lamp
being able to emit a flashing light makes it legal whether used steady
or not. Or am I misreading it? It has been a long day....

That's how I interpreted it to start with, although I've since realised
(on about the fourth reading) that the lamp *must* be used in flashing
mode in order to get round the kitemarking (or equivalent) requirement.

I e-mailed the CTC last week requesting clarification. As you'd expect,
I had a helpful reply from Chris Juden:

DC > I wonder if you can clarify the effects of the changes to the
DC > lighting regulations introduced on 21/10/05, please?
DC >
DC > The new legislation legalises the use of flashing LED lamps,
DC > specifically referring to a "lamp capable of emitting a flashing
DC > light". I have read comments that a light without a flashing mode
DC > is still required to use a filament bulb,

CJ > Not so. The cycling press and message boards are full of
CJ > ill-informed comments on cycle lighting. See here:
CJ > http://www.ctc.org.uk/DesktopDefault.aspx?TabID=4071 for the truth.

DC > which would mean that an LED lamp without a flashing mode would not
DC > be legal as a primary lamp. My own reading of the amendments to
DC > regulation 18 suggests that this depends upon the wording of
DC > BS6102/3, which I do not have access to.

CJ > The current version of BS6102/3, which is now called up by this
CJ > latest revision of RVLR, says "light source" everywhere it used to
CJ > say "bulb".

DC > This will become increasingly significant as LED dynamo front lamps
DC > become more commonplace. Strictly according to the letter of the
DC > law, is my B+M D'Toplight Plus legal for use as a primary rear
DC > lamp? If I were to buy a B+M LED Topal, would it be legal for use
DC > as a primary front lamp? (I was going to ask about the Solidlights
DC > 1203D, but I see from the Solidlights website that it has a
DC > flashing mode).

CJ > The remaining problem is that Britain is a small country where
CJ > few people cycle, even fewer in the dark. So it's hardly worth a
CJ > manufacturer's while marking BS6102/3 on his products, even if it
CJ > might actually comply. When you consider how many countries there
CJ > are in Europe, each with subtly different cycle lighting laws and
CJ > standards, and imagine how you'd fit all of those markings on one
CJ > lamp ...! Hence the Euro-friendly clause of RVLR. Refer again to
CJ > http://www.ctc.org.uk/DesktopDefault.aspx?TabID=4071 for more about
CJ > that.
CJ >
CJ > So the Euro-friendly clause (probably) makes your German dynamo
CJ > lamps legal, but American/Asian manufacturers take one look at this
CJ > mess of different European countries' standards, declare a curse on
CJ > all our houses and just get on with the business of making and
CJ > selling lights regardless! And provided their lights are seen to be
CJ > good, cyclists in most European countries seem happy to buy and use
CJ > them regardless! Probably the only thing that will persuade
CJ > manufacturers from less regulated countries to take a more
CJ > European, sophisticated, vehicular, tight-arsed (call it what you
CJ > will!) approach to cycle lighting, is if the EC were to mandate a
CJ > single harmonised standard. But every time we suggest that, the
CJ > disunited European cycle lighting manufacturers say no thanks, we
CJ > prefer it how it is!

DC > Also, how do you think the law would handle a Cat Eye TL-LD600 in
DC > strobing (Cylon effect) mode? I dislike simple flashing lights and
DC > refuse to use one, but I like the effect of a moving light (as long
DC > as it is used alongside at least one steady light) and usually use
DC > one when riding after dark. I fear it may fall foul of the maximum
DC > flashing rate (240 flashes per minute), which I otherwise
DC > thoroughly approve of. By my measurements the lamp emits about 600
DC > flashes per minute. Each individual LED would flash only about 150
DC > times per minute, but the strobing pattern means that the intervals
DC > between each display of light for an individual LED are not
DC > constant.

CJ > I am not familiar with that lamp. The upper limit on flash
CJ > frequency is to avoid triggering epileptic fits, which is a
CJ > particular risk with lights that flash at a rate between 5 and
CJ > 30Hz. I am not an expert on epilepsy but suppose that when an LED
CJ > array is used to produce the effect of a moving light, that
CJ > perception takes sensory precedence over what any individual LED
CJ > may be doing.
CJ >
CJ > The matter of how the output of such a lamp should be measured
CJ > is another question! BSI is now charged with the duty of writing
CJ > something more comprehensive than the simple 4cd minimum for
CJ > incorporation in a future revision of RVLR, so it's a question we
CJ > shall have to answer. I guess we should have to asses a
CJ > subjectively moving light as exactly that and measure the average
CJ > intensity over a full cycle.

--
Danny Colyer (my reply address is valid but checked infrequently)
<URL:http://www.colyer.plus.com/danny/>
Subscribe to PlusNet <URL:http://www.colyer.plus.com/referral/>
"He who dares not offend cannot be honest." - Thomas Paine

Danny Colyer said:

CJ > Not so. The cycling press and message boards are full of
CJ > ill-informed comments on cycle lighting. See here:
CJ > http://www.ctc.org.uk/DesktopDefault.aspx?TabID=4071 for the truth.

Thanks for posting the reponse you received from Chris Juden. I'm slightly
concerned by this bit (though reassured by the rest):

""You must not, for instance ... or fit triangular-shaped rear reflectors on
anything except a trailer.""

Does this mean that my tourer, when carrying its Super C panniers (complete
with reflective triangles) is breaching the law, or is it only triangular
reflectors on the bike itself that are the problem?

Regards,

-david

David Nutter said:

""You must not, for instance ... or fit triangular-shaped rear reflectors on
anything except a trailer.""

Does this mean that my tourer, when carrying its Super C panniers (complete
with reflective triangles) is breaching the law, or is it only triangular
reflectors on the bike itself that are the problem?

Clause 8 of schedule 18 of the regs states:
"No vehicle, other than a trailer or a broken-down motor vehicle being
towed, may be fitted with triangular-shaped rear reflectors."
<URL:http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si1989/Uksi_19891796_en_23.htm#nsch18>

ISTR a discussion here a while back about whether luggage attached to
the bike counts as part of the vehicle, but I don't think we came up
with a definite answer. If it /does/ count as part of the vehicle then
I guess the white reflective patches on my Ortlieb panniers would
probably be illegal as well.

--
Danny Colyer (my reply address is valid but checked infrequently)
<URL:http://www.colyer.plus.com/danny/>
Subscribe to PlusNet <URL:http://www.colyer.plus.com/referral/>
"He who dares not offend cannot be honest." - Thomas Paine

Danny Colyer said:

ISTR a discussion here a while back about whether luggage attached to
the bike counts as part of the vehicle, but I don't think we came up
with a definite answer. If it /does/ count as part of the vehicle then
I guess the white reflective patches on my Ortlieb panniers would
probably be illegal as well.

Well, as your pedals are probably illegal anyway, and would be obscured
by the luggage, it seems to be a moot point.

...d

On 1 Nov 2005 16:05:46 -0800, "David Martin"
<[email hidden]> said in
<[email hidden]>:

Quoted message said:

If that light is also capable of being used in a steady mode then it
must be marked with one of the appropriate BS6102/3. So it is possible
to have two lamps that are identical in action except one can be steady
and the other not be, and the one that can be steady is not legal as a
sole light but the flash only one is.

That's how I read it. Since I have precisely none (0) lamps which are
/not/ capable of emitting a steady light, and only the TL-AU100s are
marked to BS anything at all, this does not seem to move us forward a
whole lot...

Guy
--
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

"To every complex problem there is a solution which is
simple, neat and wrong" - HL Mencken

Just zis Guy said:

On 1 Nov 2005 16:05:46 -0800, "David Martin"
<[email hidden]> said in
<[email hidden]>:

Quoted message said:

If that light is also capable of being used in a steady mode then it
must be marked with one of the appropriate BS6102/3. So it is possible
to have two lamps that are identical in action except one can be steady
and the other not be, and the one that can be steady is not legal as a
sole light but the flash only one is.

That's how I read it. Since I have precisely none (0) lamps which are
/not/ capable of emitting a steady light, and only the TL-AU100s are
marked to BS anything at all, this does not seem to move us forward a
whole lot...

It does in that lights meeting EU standards equivalent to BS6102/3
2003(?) can be used.

There are improvements. I'm still working through the pages but the
major things are the ugrade in BS6102, and the ability to use flashing
lights as auxilliary lights (and in a few very rare cases as a sole
light).

...d

On 2 Nov 2005 14:50:42 -0800, "David Martin"
<[email hidden]> said in
<[email hidden]>:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

That's how I read it. Since I have precisely none (0) lamps which are
/not/ capable of emitting a steady light, and only the TL-AU100s are
marked to BS anything at all, this does not seem to move us forward a
whole lot...

Quoted message said:

It does in that lights meeting EU standards equivalent to BS6102/3
2003(?) can be used.

Yes, that's true - so my SON E6 and B&M Dymotec are finally legal :-)

Quoted message said:

There are improvements. I'm still working through the pages but the
major things are the ugrade in BS6102, and the ability to use flashing
lights as auxilliary lights (and in a few very rare cases as a sole
light).

Indeed. But the change is not as fundamental as we'd been led to
believe, in that this regulation does not formally supersede the
standards requirement (given that the EU equivalence bit might well
have got through on anyway if tested in court) unless the light
*cannot* be used in steady mode, and I know of very few which can't.

Guy
--
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

"To every complex problem there is a solution which is
simple, neat and wrong" - HL Mencken

you know? said:

On 1 Nov 2005 16:05:46 -0800, "David Martin"
<[email hidden]> said in
<[email hidden]>:

Quoted message said:

If that light is also capable of being used in a steady mode then it
must be marked with one of the appropriate BS6102/3. So it is possible
to have two lamps that are identical in action except one can be steady
and the other not be, and the one that can be steady is not legal as a
sole light but the flash only one is.

That's how I read it. Since I have precisely none (0) lamps which are
/not/ capable of emitting a steady light,

Surely the LED's even in steady mode are actually flashing, just at a
rate your eyes can't detect...

Jim.