Firetrails 50 report

"Doug Freese" <[email hidden]> wrote

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<<I hit the 26 mile turn-around at 4:17. I was starting to get tired,
and the
climbs were getting tougher. Hills I could easily jog up in the first
15
miles caused my quads to load up, and I had to jog-walk up. >>

Probably hard to answer but what did you use as guideline as to what
hills you would run vs. walk?

I'm normally tired at the half way point, but as at Catalina in January this
year, I usually maintain pace by working harder in part II. More on my hill
strategy below.

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I ran the next 7 or 8 miles with a couple of guys, and we discussed
the world at

large, with many observations on the fair sex. >>

And you concluded??? 😉

All in all, we like them... :-)

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At about 37 miles, I noticed a couple of guys trying to catch me.
Although I was feeling pretty wiped

out by now, it was time to go to work. >>

Feeling wiped at 37 is a bit early and suggests that you took it out a
little hard and why I asked what you used as a guide for hills tom run
vs. walk.

I think I could have taken it out to the marathon about 10 minutes slower.
However, despite my complaining, I was able to run all of the race in the
second half except for grades over about 6%. I expect to feel wiped at the
3/4 point, and can usually maintain pace despite that -- this time I
couldn't (quads, more below). I did have my best patch right after that for
about 4 miles, don't forget.

My hill strategy is still a work in progress. I tried to keep my pulse down
to 142-143 during the first two hours. It was hard to hold back! If it
rose above that, I'd slow down or walk. After I burned off the top layer of
glycogen, I would back off if I felt the beginning of leg burn (I call it
smoke in the quads).

After two hours, my brand spanking new AXN300 hrm lost the heartbeat
function, and I couldn't get it going. So after that I flew by what I
thought 142 felt like.

It could be that the magic number for me is more like 137. I know that I
can average 145-155 in a 50k and finish strong. I figured that 140 would
work for 50m, and I'll try it again after I train with my normal downhill
workout.

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I picked it up on a long downgrade,

and started feeling good. In fact, I felt the best I felt all race -
yes,
folks, the mythical runner's high. >>

High maybe but I suggest that your quads were in good shape.

It was mild downhill, followed by a smooth and soft level fireroad. I was
hardly breathing, and just clipping along at a good cadence and munching
cookies. At this point, my quads hurt when I ran steep downs, but gradual
downs were still pain-free.

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Then I started passing people on a long

flat section in a leafy canyon and got a boost from each one. >>

Ain't it great!!!

The reason not to go out too fast! I did get passed by two people: one, a
49 year old former 2:32 marathoner (no objection there), and the second guy
was a 20-something who was a 3:05 marathoner (I'm in about 3:15 shape,
judging from who I finish with usually). So both these guys were faster
than I was.

Another guy who finished ahead of me (put 5 minutes on me in the last 5
miles!) was a 40 year-old I kept trading places with. He would be huffing
and puffing on uphills, and I'd glide past him breathing easily. But he
would *blast* the downhills.

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The next long climb brought me out of my reverie,

as I realized that my uphill legs were nearly spent. I needed to
conserve
every bit of energy to finish.>>

How many training runs did you do that consisted of all hiking and no
running up??? Would I be correct in none and only hiked those monster
ups?

Actually I did one pure hard hike (up a 20% grade to a 10k' elevation).
I had no problem on ups, no one I was with could stay with me, even walking.
The problem (which cost me 10-15 minutes, I guess) was that I hadn't trained
on the downhills as I usually do.

My usual Saturday run has a 10 mile 5k' climb, and the matching descent. I
run the descent at or a bit under 7:00/mile. I only did one of these in the
prior 6 weeks. So my downhill quads hurt on anything steep after about 30
miles, and on even easy downs after 40 miles. I could have pushed through
it (after all, it's only pain, as I say to myself), but all the
Rhabdomyolosis talk on the ultra list made me back waaay off to keep the
muscle damage down to a dull roar. When I raced marathons, I would damn the
pain, and rip through sore muscles. I usually limped for 5 days afterward.
Nowadays, I don't want to do it, I don't think it's good for this old bod.

So in a nutshell, I will resume my tried and true downhill workouts.

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< Time, 9:05, 20-something th place, 3rd in the 50's.

Great run!!! My 50 the end of Sept had about the same total elevation
but other then that not fair to compare. I ran about a hour slower and
had not one leg twitch.

Why, I might almost accuse you of sandbagging, except I know you're a
low-mileage kind of guy.

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From 20 on I ran the all the downs more quickly.
from 26 on I added all the ups less the obvious very steep. Where we
differ maybe the deciding factor, I ran very few of the ups in the first
20 and took the downs easy.

A very interesting strategy. I don't know if my ego would let me go out
that far back in the pack...

I was hampered by downhill quad pain after about 35 miles. It just sucks
the life out of me. When I was younger, I could blast downhills (under
5:00/mile in trail races!), so it's been quite a turn-around.

I think that a 5-10 minute slower first half might have helped, but so would
quads that had some more tough downhill miles in them. As it was I was
breathing very easy on the hills I ran. (until the last 12 miles, of
course)

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Not that my strategy is better but If I read between the lines
especially you feeling rusty at 37, sounds like went out a little too
hard, at least for your training. The good part, you now have a mark in
the sand to use as a guide. Here is the loaded question, what would you
do either in your race strategy or training to improve the next time?

Go back to my 10 mile downhill workouts.
Go out a tad bit easier. I got a bit excited and passed some folks from
20-26. The old HRM might have saved me there.

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Do you think the HRM helped, hurt or don't really know? Were you
preoccupied with the reading such that you were not feeling your race?
Not that it makes a difference but how many others were wearing a HRM?

I'm constantly taking readings when I race, my cadence, my breathing, quads,
my stride length, arm carriage, posture, footplant, etc. Looking at the
watch to check my pulse was just another interesting thing to do -- to learn
how my observations correlated with heart rate.

I definitely would have gone out faster in the first couple of hours without
it. 155 felt great, but would have been too fast.

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The Picnic at the

finish had the three B's: Burgers, Beer, and Brownies. >>

BEER??? If I had only known..

That's a big, fat Roger...

"Dan Stumpus" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

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All in all, we like them... :-)

Ah yes, reminds me of study that was done many years ago. 9 out of 10
men that tried camels preferred women.

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After two hours, my brand spanking new AXN300 harm lost the heartbeat
function, and I couldn't get it going. So after that I flew by what I
thought 142 felt like.

Hold that thought.

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The reason not to go out too fast! I did get passed by two people:
one, a
49 year old former 2:32 marathoner (no objection there), and the
second guy
was a 20-something who was a 3:05 marathoner (I'm in about 3:15 shape,
judging from who I finish with usually). So both these guys were
faster
than I was.

If they were faster why were they behind you? 😉

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Actually I did one pure hard hike (up a 20% grade to a 10k'
elevation).
I had no problem on ups, no one I was with could stay with me, even
walking.
The problem (which cost me 10-15 minutes, I guess) was that I hadn't
trained
on the downhills as I usually do.

I gotcha. I'm a religious quad masher in training. whether I run or hike
the ups, I work the downs but my downs are too steep for a 7 or even
7:30 pace. My quads usually hold up well through about 85 miles and I've
learned to cope with that. To drive that away I'd need another 20 miles
a week which would be too risky for my menopause.

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Why, I might almost accuse you of sandbagging, except I know you're a
low-mileage kind of guy.

In retrospect, on that particular day it's possible that I went out a
little slow but to have no one pass me for 30 miles and blow passed a
pile of people( I stopped counting at 25) compensates for the time on
the clock.

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From 20 on I ran the all the downs more quickly.
from 26 on I added all the ups less the obvious very steep. Where we
differ maybe the deciding factor, I ran very few of the ups in the
first
20 and took the downs easy.

A very interesting strategy. I don't know if my ego would let me go
out
that far back in the pack...

I know 100 is different animal bit I would go through mile 18 at
position 200-210 and finish 35-40 with my time about 21 hours give or
take a half hour. I would run negative or equal which if you take a
poll, is far from standard. While I'm, not a Mafetone(sp) fan but it was
Steve P(over on the ultra list) that walked the first 10 miles of
hardrock, even the level, and had one of best races time wise and
finished strong. Marathons give us bad habits. 🙂

I know it's hard to fathom but in a 50 or higher, the 50k can almost be
treated as a sprint, you can really make up tremendous ground later in a
race by going out slow. I'm talking about a lot slower. I know it's hard
to run slower and wonder, "will I be able to make up this lost
time/position?" I contend yes, big time. I'd wear the HM for about 10
miles, keep yourself to 130 and then shut the bloody thing off and trust
your instincts. At least try it in a reasonable training run and see how
it works.

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Go back to my 10 mile downhill workouts.
Go out a tad bit easier. I got a bit excited and passed some folks
from
20-26. The old HRM might have saved me there.

Quoted message said:

I'm constantly taking readings when I race, my cadence, my breathing,
quads,
my stride length, arm carriage, posture, footplant, etc. Looking at
the
watch to check my pulse was just another interesting thing to do -- to
learn
how my observations correlated with heart rate.

I know it sounds Zenish but heave the HM and learn feel your runs and
pace in training. I'm suggesting that you can put yourself on cruise
control, and pay less and less atention to constant monitoring. I think
you could run just as well, maybe better with less mental energy. As
always opinion and makes for great lining in the litter box. 🙂

-DougF