F**king Ramblers.

On 8 May 2007 05:23:47 -0700, toad <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The geriatric tag is slightly offensive

I come from a long line of elderly people. With luck I shall be
elderly myself at some point. Hard to see why that would be offensive.

all generalisations can be.

Quoted message said:

However you are in luck.
In response to Dave F I reposted with all reference to ages removed
so you might prefer to read that version. Ages were irrelevant to the
point anyway.

Yes, thank you, I've seen that now, that's the trouble with this
broadband post as you go lark, I'll have to store them.
--
Mike Reid
Devizes "http://www.lawn-mower-man.co.uk/devizes.htm"

PeterC said:

Mind you, I'm 60 but on the hills (uphill at least) can leave 'em for dead
and thus 'escape'.

And if not there's often the sideways escape.
One time on Jock's road out of Glen Doll we were caught up in a long train
of what seemed to be a busload of ramblers. Instead of spending most of
our time overtaking each subgroup we decided to head of to the left and
had a very nice walk over the plateau back to Mayar. Didn't see anybody
until we got to Corrie Fee.

Roos

The Reid said:

On 8 May 2007 05:23:47 -0700, toad <[email hidden]>
Hard to see why that would be offensive.

all generalisations can be.

Errrr, isn't that a generalisation in itself?

Anyway I wasn't generalising, I was being specific.

"PeterC" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

The Reid said:

On 8 May 2007 01:06:25 -0700, toad <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

I was pretty peeved but wondered if I was being a little intolerant -
the hills are there for everyone, why not them.

I would just say that you have your labels wrong. Some groups (most?)
are noisy. The geriatric tag is slightly offensive and I dont think
older walkers make more noise than young on average.

Geriatric delinquents!

(Peter, 60).
--
Peter.
If you can do it today, you didn't put off enough yesterday.

Speaking as a member of the Ramblers (joined on the grounds they were
doing - and still are - more for walkers in't hills than anyone else,...
don't forget that !!!) who will get his bus pass later this year... ;-) ....
;-( ..

... there's a couple of points... (I speak only for myself, certainly not for
the organisation...)
a) As regards "Ramblers", I think most "Ramblers", myself in particular,
demonstrate "Rambling" in the physical-walking-about sense as well as
mentally (the old mind wanders...) and verbally....
b) There are some Ramblers groups, notably in the North of Scotland who are
unlike those from down south.. 1st time I went out with my local group (I'm
150+ munros..) my first impression was "well, they ain't young..." but after
30 mins it was "Stone me, they are fit..."
c) Have a look at the walk programme for the Inverness Group at...
http://www.ramblers.co.uk/walksfinder/search.php?advanced=1&group=SC6&zoomLevel=1&area=NH+66+44&
(Not my local group, but met a few..) and see where they go....
d) I'd rather see those in their declining years wandering the hills than
drooping down in some "twilight home..."... mind you, keeping fit in old age
makes the pensions crisis worse...
e) I live in hope that at some time I get the chance, with the right
partner, and if the body can still cope, to have a go at "F***ing
Ramblers"... - but the wife's nae so keen...

Yours aye

toad wrote

Quoted message said:

Errrr, isn't that a generalisation in itself?

All generalisations are wrong.

Chris

On 8 May 2007 05:54:01 -0700, toad <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Errrr, isn't that a generalisation in itself?

if you like to play with words, yes. In reality, no.

Quoted message said:

Anyway I wasn't generalising, I was being specific.

If you attach labels to a single group, "schoolkids", "geriatric",
"black", "foreign" it leads to the conclusion you are associating that
behavior with that grouping.

"I was mugged by a blackman" begs the assumption, blackmewn are
muggers.
"I was mugged by a man" ditto for men over women
"I was mugged" assumes all muggings are in the past.
Best to say nothing.
--
Mike Reid
UK walking, food, photos "http://www.fellwalk.co.uk" <-- you can email us@ this site
Spain walking, food, tourism "http://www.fell-walker.co.uk"
Beginners UK flight sim addons "http://www.lawn-mower-man.co.uk"

Rab C Nesbitt

Quoted message said:

e) I live in hope that at some time I get the chance, with the right
partner, and if the body can still cope, to have a go at "F***ing
Ramblers"... - but the wife's nae so keen...

He he :-D Gordon'll be around soon to offer advice
on open-air conjugation, I'm sure.

Chris

The Reid said:

On 8 May 2007 05:54:01 -0700, toad <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Errrr, isn't that a generalisation in itself?

if you like to play with words, yes. In reality, no.

Quoted message said:

Anyway I wasn't generalising, I was being specific.

If you attach labels to a single group, "schoolkids", "geriatric",
"black", "foreign" it leads to the conclusion you are associating that
behavior with that grouping.

Don't be so utterly stupid. I wasn't associating any behavior with any
group based on any description of age. (Indeed I rewrote the post to
avoid any age related description of either group and the meaning was
blatently unchanged.)

Now 'F**king Ramblers' might be generalising in the manner you
suggest.

On 8 May 2007 06:27:49 -0700, toad <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

If you attach labels to a single group, "schoolkids", "geriatric",
"black", "foreign" it leads to the conclusion you are associating that
behavior with that grouping.

Don't be so utterly stupid.

only very stupid people make the assumption those who take a different
view are stupid.

Quoted message said:

I wasn't associating any behavior with any
group based on any description of age.

if you include the adjective you imply the association.
--
Mike Reid
UK walking, food, photos "http://www.fellwalk.co.uk" <-- you can email us@ this site
Spain walking, food, tourism "http://www.fell-walker.co.uk"
Beginners UK flight sim addons "http://www.lawn-mower-man.co.uk"

Roos Eisma said:

PeterC said:

Mind you, I'm 60 but on the hills (uphill at least) can leave 'em for dead
and thus 'escape'.

And if not there's often the sideways escape.

<snip>

Yes, did that in the Lakes: Easter camping in Langdale (I know!), started
at 100, went across the ridges and valleys, down at 2300-2330. Not many
people about except for a few yards twice per cycle (also didn't buy any
beer).

--
Peter.
If you can do it today, you didn't put off enough yesterday.

The Reid said:

On 8 May 2007 06:27:49 -0700, toad <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

If you attach labels to a single group, "schoolkids", "geriatric",
"black", "foreign" it leads to the conclusion you are associating that
behavior with that grouping.

Quoted message said:

Don't be so utterly stupid.

only very stupid people make the assumption those who take a different
view are stupid.

You view is that by including someones age in their description I am
associating their traits with all people who match the description.
That is stupid and by claiming that you were being stupid.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I wasn't associating any behavior with any
group based on any description of age.

if you include the adjective you imply the association.

Utter nonsense. Adjectives simply add a bit of colour to the noun. If
I say "The man in the green jumper gave me £100" I don't mean to imply
that all people in green jumpers are likely to hand me £100.

On 8 May 2007 06:40:18 -0700, toad <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

only very stupid people make the assumption those who take a different
view are stupid.

You view is that by including someones age in their description I am
associating their traits with all people who match the description.

why else do you include the age unless you think it indicates a trait?

Quoted message said:

That is stupid and by claiming that you were being stupid.

no, i'm taking a different view from you. You define that as
"stupidity" only stupid people think any view other than thier own
must be stupid. The use of abuse generally indicates the same.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I wasn't associating any behavior with any
group based on any description of age.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

if you include the adjective you imply the association.

Quoted message said:

Utter nonsense. Adjectives simply add a bit of colour to the noun. If
I say "The man in the green jumper gave me £100" I don't mean to imply
that all people in green jumpers are likely to hand me £100.

sadly perhaps that doesnt wash with a term like "geriatric" any more
than "black" or "woman" or any other area where discrimination is
present, but I think you know that now.
--
Mike Reid
UK walking, food, photos "http://www.fellwalk.co.uk" <-- you can email us@ this site
Spain walking, food, tourism "http://www.fell-walker.co.uk"
Beginners UK flight sim addons "http://www.lawn-mower-man.co.uk"

The Reid said:

On 8 May 2007 06:40:18 -0700, toad <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

only very stupid people make the assumption those who take a different
view are stupid.

Quoted message said:

You view is that by including someones age in their description I am
associating their traits with all people who match the description.

why else do you include the age unless you think it indicates a trait?

I included the names of mountains, would I include those if I didn't
think it indicated a trait?

....and I actually removed the age bits in a later repost.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

That is stupid and by claiming that you were being stupid.

no, i'm taking a different view from you.

The view that if someone mentions detail about something it must be
trying to claim a pattern.

Quoted message said:

You define that as
"stupidity" only stupid people think any view other than thier own
must be stupid. The use of abuse generally indicates the same.

I define your stupid misunderstanding of the English language as
stupid because it is stupid. Some views that differ from mine happen
to also be stupid. That is not the same as saying I beleive all views
that differ to mine to be stupid.

I think you're adopting the "Straw Man fallacy". Attempting to "prove"
an argument by overstating, exaggerating, or over-simplifying the
arguments of the opposing side.

http://web.cn.edu/kwheeler/fallacies_list.html

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>I wasn't associating any behavior with any
>group based on any description of age.
if you include the adjective you imply the association.

Utter nonsense. Adjectives simply add a bit of colour to the noun. If
I say "The man in the green jumper gave me £100" I don't mean to imply
that all people in green jumpers are likely to hand me £100.

sadly perhaps that doesnt wash with a term like "geriatric" any more
than "black" or "woman" or any other area where discrimination is
present

Lets just get this clear.

In your mind if someone says:

"The man in the green jumper gave me £100"
They _don't_ mean to imply that all people in green jumpers are likely
to hand me £100.

but if someone says:

"The woman in the green jumper gave me £100"
They _do_ mean to imply that all people in green jumpers are likely to
hand me £100.

You have serious issues with the English language my friend.

Especially since I immediately reposted my original post with all
references to age of either party removed and in order to try and
maintain your illogical POV you have have to revert to the original
wording.

Didn't this start with some comment on people who didnae know when to keep
quiet ??>

....

aye,, and all parties then & now will think themselves in the right....

.....

On 8 May 2007 07:13:53 -0700, toad <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

I included the names of mountains, would I include those if I didn't
think it indicated a trait?

what does that mean exactly?

Quoted message said:

...and I actually removed the age bits in a later repost.

which I acknowledged a long time ago.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

That is stupid and by claiming that you were being stupid.

no, i'm taking a different view from you.

The view that if someone mentions detail about something it must be
trying to claim a pattern.

not just detail, adjectives which are well known to often be used in a
derogatory way. Like geriatric, which is derogatory here.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

You define that as
"stupidity" only stupid people think any view other than thier own
must be stupid. The use of abuse generally indicates the same.

I define your stupid misunderstanding of the English language as
stupid because it is stupid. Some views that differ from mine happen
to also be stupid. That is not the same as saying I beleive all views
that differ to mine to be stupid.

you address my opinion as "stupid misunderstandings" anybody who
uses that type of approach to discussion has got to be
well............

Quoted message said:

Lets just get this clear.

In your mind if someone says:

"The man in the green jumper gave me £100"
They _don't_ mean to imply that all people in green jumpers are likely
to hand me £100.

but if someone says:

"The woman in the green jumper gave me £100"
They _do_ mean to imply that all people in green jumpers are likely to
hand me £100.

Not at all. Its the association of a negative attribute with a group.
"green" has no negative connotation, neither has the gift of money, so
none of the above means anything in this context.

but noisy geriatric ramblers are a different kettle of fish in the
context of hill walkers. A nice bunch of labels.

"geriatric
adjective of or relating to old people, especially with regard to
their health care: a geriatric hospital.

informal decrepit; out of date: replacements for a geriatric
locomotive fleet.
noun an old person, especially one receiving special care:"

appropriate to a group on the summiit of a mountain? Or derogatory?

Quoted message said:

You have serious issues with the English language my friend.

Have I? BTW I'm not your friend and you don't seem to be able to
grasping the difference between neutral and negative adjectives.

Quoted message said:

Especially since I immediately reposted my original post with all
references to age of either party removed and in order to try and
maintain your illogical POV you have have to revert to the original
wording.

as I said right at the start I hadn't, at that point, read your
repost, so you could have left it at that. But you prefer to start
shouting "stupid". Which I take badly.
--
Mike Reid
UK walking, food, photos "http://www.fellwalk.co.uk" <-- you can email us@ this site
Spain walking, food, tourism "http://www.fell-walker.co.uk"
Beginners UK flight sim addons "http://www.lawn-mower-man.co.uk"

In message <[email hidden]>
"Rab C Nesbitt" <[email hidden]> wrote:

[snip]

Quoted message said:

Speaking as a member of the Ramblers (joined on the grounds they were
doing - and still are - more for walkers in't hills than anyone
else,... don't forget that !!!) who will get his bus pass later this
year... ;-) ....

[snip]

I've supported the RA through membership fees and donations, but never
been on one of their local association organised walks. Some may join
the organisation for social activities, but many more of us probably
join it as a campaigning organisation.

The reason I put money into their cause is because they are prepared to
take on legal cases to keep footpaths open etc

Indeed I put a considerable amount of money into their legal cases
against the closure of footpaths by e.g. Van Hoogstraten etc.

I've also found them very useful when it comes to reporting problems
with footpath access. For example if on one of my walks I come across a
problem such as a deliberately obstructed footpath I usually copy the
relevant local RA footpaths officer into my correspondence with the
Highways Authority. They usually follow up the complaint and also give
you feedback on the progress.

Mike
--
o/ \\ // |\ ,_ o Mike Clark
<\__,\\ // __o | \ / /\, "A mountain climbing, cycling, skiing,
"> || _`\<,_ |__\ \> | immunology lecturer, antibody engineer and
` || (_)/ (_) | \corn computer user"

On Tue, 08 May 2007 17:40:59 +0100, Mike Clark <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

I've supported the RA through membership fees and donations, but never
been on one of their local association organised walks. Some may join
the organisation for social activities, but many more of us probably
join it as a campaigning organisation.

same here, cant see why some people are so anti RA.
--
Mike Reid
UK walking, food, photos "http://www.fellwalk.co.uk" <-- you can email us@ this site
Spain walking, food, tourism "http://www.fell-walker.co.uk"
Beginners UK flight sim addons "http://www.lawn-mower-man.co.uk"

Does this kind of thing happen every week. I think not. Now and then I
get a load of people in front of me at the bar in my local chatting. I
just say"excuse me" and they move. Perhaps you should try this
approach.
Kev.........A 45 yr old geriatric Ramble Association member.

"toad" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

We did a spot of Hewitt bagging this weekend, enjoying some superb
scenery on and around Bannau Sir Gaer, Fan Brycheiniog, Fan Gyhirych &
Fan Nedd.

However for myself and my companion Fan Brycheiniog was slightly
spoiled by a gang of geriatric walkers.

As an aside, this post instantly demolishes Macmillan's latest attempt at
Trollism, which is fairly satisfying.

Graham

In message <[email hidden]>, Mike
Clark <[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

In message <[email hidden]>
"Rab C Nesbitt" <[email hidden]> wrote:

[snip]

Quoted message said:

Speaking as a member of the Ramblers (joined on the grounds they were
doing - and still are - more for walkers in't hills than anyone
else,... don't forget that !!!) who will get his bus pass later this
year... ;-) ....

[snip]

I've supported the RA through membership fees and donations, but never
been on one of their local association organised walks. Some may join
the organisation for social activities, but many more of us probably
join it as a campaigning organisation.

The reason I put money into their cause is because they are prepared to
take on legal cases to keep footpaths open etc

Indeed I put a considerable amount of money into their legal cases
against the closure of footpaths by e.g. Van Hoogstraten etc.

I've also found them very useful when it comes to reporting problems
with footpath access. For example if on one of my walks I come across a
problem such as a deliberately obstructed footpath I usually copy the
relevant local RA footpaths officer into my correspondence with the
Highways Authority. They usually follow up the complaint and also give
you feedback on the progress.

Mike

.............and they offer the opportunity for some members of the
public to take walks they might otherwise not attempt. This NG should
be encouraging walking anyway.
--
Bill Grey